Quality life of professional players

Petros Andrikop said:
JCIN:
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have made specific suggestions and I'm happy that quite a few members share the idea of forming a Professional Pool league which is the main idea.
I wrote about it in this thread already, it's basically what happened in Snooker (not in one day..)

I mentioned my profession only to state that I have never been into Pool for the money.
I tried to change things for better in Greek Pool but I failed, you cannot do it by yourself.. People, especially promoters have to change their approach..
At least all these years besides being an average good player I gave free lessons to every young kid I came across.
Alexandros Kazakis, a fine 18 year old kid, member of the Greek team that was victorius over USA in 2010 (beating C. Duel at that event) has learned a few things from me as well and yes I have managed to beat him once (only..) in competition (he has already reached 3rd place in European Championship).

So I have played good and I have been successful in one of the greatest jobs a person can have. I do know reality to a great extend.. Not having all the answers I only try to think ahead.
I have zero complains personally from Pool, I thank everyday God for my life!

So this is not about me, my only complain about Pool is that it doesn't have the place in society it can have..
I'm gonna have to stick to my point of view: If pool promoters fail to see what damage to the sport is done when Pool is presented in such a way as in that video then we're still far off the right track..

Anyway, this is just a matter of having a different opinion, I have always tought myself to respect everyone in Pool and do the best I can about it.

Hopefully soon I will finish writting the first Greek Pool book ever and contribute a bit more to it..

Just listen to the players guys, there are a lot of us who love Pool and want nothing personally out of it othen than the satisfaction of the game being played well..
Maybe the useful ideas presented by a lot members in this thread will lead in the future to better conditions in Pool. That's all..
Petros
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Thanks for the reply I better understand your position now.

My only comment is thatbasically in this country you have two options in most cases when it comes to things like how pool looks in that video you linked. You have someone who does things like that video for free who works for nothing and simply puts it out there in the hopes someone gets some enjoyment out of it and maybe pays attention to what location did it. The other option is no video at all.

Earl got paid something for that trick show or it was done as a favor to someone. Either way he was doing what he chose to do as a profession. I see no disrespect in how it was captured. They did the best they could with what they had. I say better that than nothing. Maybe some kid sees that and says "Whos Earl Strickland?" He is one Google search away from lots of Accu-stats and Matchroom produced footage of Earl. All because of a simple video like you saw there.
 
I agree it's better than nothing, but it can be done better with no great effort.
For e.g. announce him, stop music for 15 minutes and don't give the table next to him for recreation. Just for 15 minutes.
Give him the respect he deserves and this will aware people around of what is going on.
Earl knows how to talk while performing trick shots and he will promote the sport better if he is given the right conditions.
I have nothing personally against anyone but those people did not give the sport the proper respect in that occasion.
They do not realize that doing it right will pay them back much more in return, much more they got for that table time..
They don't realize that all of us want promoters to be successful so that the game moves forward!!
But this will never happen the way most of them approach Pool..

I'm thinking about sending a letter to major Pool companies about the idea some of us share about the formation of a serious Professional Pool League that could take the sport ahead like in Snooker if it is handled correctly..
It's not the job of the champions or the players, we have done our share..
Me and believe me a lot like me want nothing for ourselves, we just want to be able to call ourselves proud playing pool one day to society.
The Pool world has to give the champions first the proper respect if the rest of us will dream to ever get any..
We just want Pool to be the best it can be, that is all..
Petros
 
azbilliards.com bottom right corner you see the following


Player Name
Prize Money Totals
Darren Appleton
$118,494.00
Efren Reyes
$93,709.00
Mika Immonen
$92,068.00
Francisco Bustamante
$81,851.00
Karl Boyes
$78,483.00
Shane Van Boening
$76,391.00
Ga-Young Kim
$67,930.00
Lee Vann Corteza
$66,842.00
Rodney Morris
$62,187.00
Thorsten Hohmann
$59,507.00
Ralf Souquet
$58,527.00
Corey Deuel
$57,269.00
Dennis Orcollo
$52,617.00
Johnny Archer
$50,519.00
Niels Feijen
$46,163.00
Daryl Peach
$44,997.00
Jundel Mazon
$44,672.00
Antonio Lining
$44,382.00
Nick Van Den Berg
$41,667.00
Jasmin Ouschan
$41,391.00


i dont know what the expenses are but so far jasmin had made mor than i make in a year
 
A non-sports comparison of pool players would be to models. There are a finite number of jobs or contracts available in a given year. It is very easy to become interested into modelling and start a career in it, just like playing in a pool tournament. The difficulties arise when people decide to stick with it as a career. What makes it challenging is that influx of new talent makes it easy for managers, promoters or recruiters to sell the new people at a cheaper rate then the older ones. In the pool world this is the equivalent of hyping a new player or creating a player entirely from scratch. The downsides are typically not seen by the "new talent" because they have invested their time into developing their skills and see the new opportunity as a gateway. That is when the older players start barking about how disturbing the industry can be.

A new talent on the rise would just consider the noise to be them trying to control their market share. However that is why managers and promoters exist to keep the new talent distracted from hearing the horror schemes and plans yet to be used on them.

This effects the overall quality of life because if new talent is there and usually it is talented then the promoters can make a small score or large score depending on how they play with their newest creation. In the modelling world, there is much more "good ole boys clubs" then most people think and what would you expect from a bunch of corporate sharks with public financed budgets, think Clinton and his favorite intern. In the pool world the money is not as large but the time spent together is greater. Meaning a promoter can "be your friend" and be there for the important occasions more than an agent.

The quality of life is dropping because more people can be a pool talent agent easily. What would help is if the older players were able to convince the younger players of the pitfalls of business deals. Aside from scaring them straight most important would be showing them how to protect themselves. In the modelling industry protection may mean a muscle man to protect from unwanted advances or an agent that can lure campaigners into being interested. For the pool world protection means knowledge and the younger players could use some of what the older guys have, unless they are content with the money.

The long-term goal of increasing quality of life is to ensure the traditions of the pool community are respected. That means respecting the players and their personal lives. The players respect promoters and managers and room owners but few know how to give it back thinking the money they get paid for a few hours work is worth a brown-nosing, that is a long few hours of verbal harassment. The traditions might be leaving as the older players retire, I hope before that happens they take action because the pool realm is their domain, and all the respect goes to the players with the best records. I use the family analogy as a last resort because the pool world is a family, and it is only as good as the people that lead it, we all know there have been instances but those digressions can be overlooked if a greater mission is being worked towards. I question how much the quality of life is based on money dealings versus leading a good life? What a good life consists of you may see in events the more established billiards companies have been doing. And that is giving people opportunities to do something on their own, giving people time to explore the world in a safe manner, giving people a chance to compete against others just to start a relationship with new people. Most times the billiard world is entered in with the idea of prize money and as the older players leave they take with them the relationships they built over decades and their experiences with managers go with them. I am not saying it is all fun and games, but to some extent billiards is a game and it brings people together. The type of people that get brought together vary and that is when quality of life changes.
 
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justnum said:
A non-sports comparison of pool players would be to models. There are a finite number of jobs or contracts available in a given year. It is very easy to become interested into modelling and start a career in it, just like playing in a pool tournament. The difficulties arise when people decide to stick with it as a career. What makes it challenging is that influx of new talent makes it easy for managers, promoters or recruiters to sell the new people at a cheaper rate then the older ones. In the pool world this is the equivalent of hyping a new player or creating a player entirely from scratch. The downsides are typically not seen by the "new talent" because they have invested their time into developing their skills and see the new opportunity as a gateway. That is when the older players start barking about how disturbing the industry can be.

A new talent on the rise would just consider the noise to be them trying to control their market share. However that is why managers and promoters exist to keep the new talent distracted from hearing the horror schemes and plans yet to be used on them.

This effects the overall quality of life because if new talent is there and usually it is talented then the promoters can make a small score or large score depending on how they play with their newest creation. In the modelling world, there is much more "good ole boys clubs" then most people think and what would you expect from a bunch of corporate sharks with public financed budgets, think Clinton and his favorite intern. In the pool world the money is not as large but the time spent together is greater. Meaning a promoter can "be your friend" and be there for the important occasions more than an agent.

The quality of life is dropping because more people can be a pool talent agent easily. What would help is if the older players were able to convince the younger players of the pitfalls of business deals. Aside from scaring them straight most important would be showing them how to protect themselves. In the modelling industry protection may mean a muscle man to protect from unwanted advances or an agent that can lure campaigners into being interested. For the pool world protection means knowledge and the younger players could use some of what the older guys have, unless they are content with the money.

The long-term goal of increasing quality of life is to ensure the traditions of the pool community are respected. That means respecting the players and their personal lives. The players respect promoters and managers and room owners but few know how to give it back thinking the money they get paid for a few hours work is worth a brown-nosing, that is a long few hours of verbal harassment. The traditions might be leaving as the older players retire, I hope before that happens they take action because the pool realm is their domain, and all the respect goes to the players with the best records. I use the family analogy as a last resort because the pool world is a family, and it is only as good as the people that lead it, we all know there have been instances but those digressions can be overlooked if a greater mission is being worked towards. I question how much the quality of life is based on money dealings versus leading a good life? What a good life consists of you may see in events the more established billiards companies have been doing. And that is giving people opportunities to do something on their own, giving people time to explore the world in a safe manner, giving people a chance to compete against others just to start a relationship with new people. Most times the billiard world is entered in with the idea of prize money and as the older players leave they take with them the relationships they built over decades and their experiences with managers go with them. I am not saying it is all fun and games, but to some extent billiards is a game and it brings people together. The type of people that get brought together vary and that is when quality of life changes.
Click to expand...
You still just don't get it.......wow.

Younger players don't need an older "talent" to tell them of the pitfalls, they already know.....everyone but you already knows. They play because that is what they want to do and for most of them all they can do. Younger up and coming players are that way because of their lifestyle choice. You can't get to the level of play that the younger top players do while focusing on education, with the occasional rare exception of course.

It isn't as if the younger top players are choosing pool over Harvard Law, most are choosing it over construction, fast food or some other trade or service job.
 
The quality of life drops when a modified boiler room scam is adopted to the pool community. The stages are hype up the numbers, get friends to flood fan sites, and attract attention with something new and different. Before that is to find an undiscovered talent that needs to break ground. And the last step is waiting for the hype to be worth enough money to take one big cut or shave dollars over the years. A Madoff was a shaver and a Trudeau was a single guy cut. Trudeau had the best kiss off saying he didn't have the money and keep pulling in dollars from his online sales. What a genius! I miss that guy. He was so creative and had the money to back it up, maybe he can still go straight if someone interested him. The new guys are running old cons with the least variation, it is a little dull for my taste or interest. Trudeau was a babe magnet, I miss those events. He was the greatest.
 
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Petros Andrikop said:
Whatever anyone says the sad truth remains:

Being a world champion at Pool does not guarantee you anything special financially, despite the hard work you do to get there.
That does not stand for champions in those sports where millions play and enjoy the sport.

Being just under a world champion level, still a magnificent player, still working hard to get there, guarantees you absolutely nothing..

Tournament directors and organizers/ federation members make much more than the champions in long run..

So players should not play pool for a living but organizers have the "right" to make a living after the perfomance of great players? Is this right?
Tournament directors just fill in the gap of work other people won't do or don't have time to do since they have a regular job or they practice real hard to perfect their game. It's an easy task for them considering that most of the real work is done by the players..

Players do not gother together to demand more and this goes on forever..
World champions sell themselves too cheap and when they realize they have accomplished nothing it's too late..

If only people in charge had the vision of working harder about promoting the game young people would play more since they would have something to look up to. They would know that "making it" would really offer them something..
Do you think so many kids would play basketball if they knew that getting to the NBA which needs hard work would offer them nothing? If they watched the promoters getting everything from the players sweat and the best players of the world getting nothing special?
I think not..
Click to expand...


Being alive also guarantees you NOTHING life doesn't give you but false guarantees, you constantly have to work at it every day to keep it going, that includes yourself.
 
JamisonNeu said:
Pool has been very good to me over the years. I learned years ago that I would make millions of friends, and thousands of dollars. I am in no way rich to say that my bank statement isn't growing off interest. I am rich in so many other ways. I can credit pool for my vast success in life too. It taught me all the things I need to know about myself to do anything else I want.

Pool is the best game on the planet because of the variety of people that can play not because of the money. It can be played and won by a guy like Danny Basavich or a guy like Johnny Archer, It can be played by crazy people poor people rich people and dumb people...(me included) It can be played by a child of 4 till he dies at 90 and it has for over a 1000 years.


(people like to think they are in charge, but it is time that is in charge)

My lifestyle over the years has been crazy to say the least. One day I'll be staying in a hotel that cost $1800 a night, life size statues of Cesar, waterfalls filling the hot tub...the next day I'll be in the econo lodge paying $25 everything smells of curry, but the people are nicer here than the snooty place so just fine by me.

I would never trade the life I have lived for security in a world that doesnt offer it... I may have not saved too much paper, but man did I have fun. I have wonderful sponsors that pay me for my time, and I make about what someone with my education would if I worked 40 hrs a week...

I could go for more (move to the heart of pool), but really a family in storage isn't for most people. Some people think that it is important to have big cars and fancy houses, but I never really cared about that one time in my life.. Pool can be great thing or it can be horrible obsession it is what you make it.

I would never tell anyone not to make it a living, and I would never tell anyone that they should make it a living. Good Luck is probably what I would say...
Click to expand...

Good post JN, relative, real, familiar and I've been driving Volvo's for 32 yrs now, so long that friends I haven't seen for yrs look at my 245 Wagon (one of many) and wave, knowing it's probably me. Material obj. do not make me happy, the art of pool, the friends, pools relationships and diversity of personalities only parallels my 35 yrs working directly with the public, it doesn't surpass it.
It was nice meeting you at the Bike in 05 and your engaging play/style works for me.
 
FASTEDDIE427 said:
azbilliards.com bottom right corner you see the following


Player Name
Prize Money Totals
Darren Appleton
$118,494.00
Efren Reyes
$93,709.00
Mika Immonen
$92,068.00
Francisco Bustamante
$81,851.00
Karl Boyes
$78,483.00
Shane Van Boening
$76,391.00
Ga-Young Kim
$67,930.00
Lee Vann Corteza
$66,842.00
Rodney Morris
$62,187.00
Thorsten Hohmann
$59,507.00
Ralf Souquet
$58,527.00
Corey Deuel
$57,269.00
Dennis Orcollo
$52,617.00
Johnny Archer
$50,519.00
Niels Feijen
$46,163.00
Daryl Peach
$44,997.00
Jundel Mazon
$44,672.00
Antonio Lining
$44,382.00
Nick Van Den Berg
$41,667.00
Jasmin Ouschan
$41,391.00


i dont know what the expenses are but so far jasmin had made mor than i make in a year
Click to expand...


the overhead on those numbers is 20%-50% depending on the circumstances, those are top line numbers and are meaningless, its actually worse than that, because even people who spend 9 months a year on the road like Ralf still HAVE to support a place to live the whole time they arnt home, so you have double living costs.
 
Fatboy said:
the overhead on those numbers is 20%-50% depending on the circumstances, those are top line numbers and are meaningless, its actually worse than that, because even people who spend 9 months a year on the road like Ralf still HAVE to support a place to live the whole time they arnt home, so you have double living costs.
Click to expand...

So yeah. They make. That kind of money but they don't
 
justnum said:
The quality of life drops when a modified boiler room scam is adopted to the pool community. The stages are hype up the numbers, get friends to flood fan sites, and attract attention with something new and different. Before that is to find an undiscovered talent that needs to break ground. And the last step is waiting for the hype to be worth enough money to take one big cut or shave dollars over the years. A Madoff was a shaver and a Trudeau was a single guy cut. Trudeau had the best kiss off saying he didn't have the money and keep pulling in dollars from his online sales. What a genius! I miss that guy. He was so creative and had the money to back it up, maybe he can still go straight if someone interested him. The new guys are running old cons with the least variation, it is a little dull for my taste or interest. Trudeau was a babe magnet, I miss those events. He was the greatest.
Click to expand...

You seem to think Trudeau as good for the world of pool. Trudeau is a con artist, if you think he is a genius than I don't see how anyone can value your opinion.

Who is making all of the money you are talking about?

Who are the new guys that are running old cons?

Do you know anyone in the industry personally?

Do you actually have a clue about anything that you are talking about?

Have you taken your meds today?
 
TheMarsMan said:
You seem to think Trudeau as good for the world of pool. Trudeau is a con artist, if you think he is a genius than I don't see how anyone can value your opinion.

Who is making all of the money you are talking about?

Who are the new guys that are running old cons?

Do you know anyone in the industry personally?

Do you actually have a clue about anything that you are talking about?

Have you taken your meds today?
Click to expand...
lol, I also want to know where the $$ is. Also who the guys are who are running old cons. I am trying to think of someone I know who is running a con. Please enlighted us justnum as you seem to know something most of us don't . Just asking and not being a a$$.
 
I and many players who have played quite well have never chosen to make a living out of Pool.
I'm not saying to young kids to go or don't go for it. I'm only saying if they go for it, work hard and give it all you got, if you don't make it at least you know you gave everything you had.
But I would like to see the day come when young kids at least can dream about it..
Today's conditions do not encourage them to do so..
Like I wrote already most of us want nothing for ourselves but to see Pool reaching the place it deserves so that everyone may enjoy it better.
It can be done with a change in the industry's approach and every promoter's approach as well.

Very good ideas have been posted here, most important for me the formation of a serious Professional Pool League that could possibly do it if done well.

Snooker did it from scratch, I will never stop believing that Pool, having even more fans and players can't do it!
 
FASTEDDIE427 said:
azbilliards.com bottom right corner you see the following

Player Name
Prize Money Totals
Darren Appleton
$118,494.00
Efren Reyes
$93,709.00
Mika Immonen
$92,068.00
Francisco Bustamante
$81,851.00
Karl Boyes
$78,483.00
Shane Van Boening
$76,391.00
Ga-Young Kim
$67,930.00
Lee Vann Corteza
$66,842.00
Rodney Morris
$62,187.00
Thorsten Hohmann
$59,507.00
Ralf Souquet
$58,527.00
Corey Deuel
$57,269.00
Dennis Orcollo
$52,617.00
Johnny Archer
$50,519.00
Niels Feijen
$46,163.00
Daryl Peach
$44,997.00
Jundel Mazon
$44,672.00
Antonio Lining
$44,382.00
Nick Van Den Berg
$41,667.00
Jasmin Ouschan
$41,391.00
Click to expand...


Am I right in assuming these amounts are before-taxes? Net pay would be the amount -35% or so.
 
Druid said:
Am I right in assuming these amounts are before-taxes? Net pay would be the amount -35% or so.
Click to expand...


I wouyld assume traveling food lodging entry fees. Thing along those line would be expenses. Some of them maybe tax deductable so I am assuming those numbers are before taxes but I don't know how much they actuallyt pay in taxes
 
Petros...You keep posting the same thing over and over, without knowing anything about the video you posted. It could well be that it was done by a spectator, who just wanted to do what JCIN mentioned...tape it and put it up on You-Tube for others to enjoy. It may have not had anything to do with whoever the room owner was, whether he was or wasn't paying Earl, or any of many other details. If you think I'm talking off the top of my hat, I'm not. I've been doing professional exhibitions all over the USA for the past 15 years. If whoever hires me follows my directions, and alerts the local media, I do whatever I can to make sure that 'clip' gets on the news. However, if they don't, there's nothing I can do. That said, I still do a great show, and it is appealing to all audiences.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Petros Andrikop said:
I agree it's better than nothing, but it can be done better with no great effort.
For e.g. announce him, stop music for 15 minutes and don't give the table next to him for recreation. Just for 15 minutes.
Give him the respect he deserves and this will aware people around of what is going on.
Earl knows how to talk while performing trick shots and he will promote the sport better if he is given the right conditions.
I have nothing personally against anyone but those people did not give the sport the proper respect in that occasion.
They do not realize that doing it right will pay them back much more in return, much more they got for that table time..

Petros
Click to expand...
 
Ktown D...While, to a degree, you're right...far more 'young' good players are simply too lazy to get an education, seeking instead to "reap the riches" they perceive they can get from gambling (which is a dead end for 99% of poolplayers). You don't have be a Harvard lawyer to make a better living than that of pro poolplayer. I know lots of construction workers making 30K...not many 'pro-level' poolplayers. I do agree with your observation that it has nothing to do with "respect for the game and it's players".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Ktown D said:
It isn't as if the younger top players are choosing pool over Harvard Law, most are choosing it over construction, fast food or some other trade or service job.
Click to expand...
 
Why is it so hard for people to admit not all but that the vast majority of pool promoters do a louzy job?
That they are the main reason Pool has failed to reach full potential until now?

Take another look please for the love of God!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBCm-vAXHYo&feature=fvsr

It is 100% clear that this is a formal presentation of Earl's show over there!!!!
And this is the way they chose to present it!!!!

Believe me I'm not talking off the top of my hat either!!!
I have nothing against anyone and I have no personal profit interest in Pool.
I love Pool and I just want to emphasize what is wrong in such occasions and what can be done better, this isn't about me.

The people that sponsored that event may be the greatest people on earth but that has nothing to do with it.
The way this show is presented gives absolutely zero respect to the game!!!
And sadly this is no exception, it is the rule!!!
They just could not pass those few bucks for that table time and a few more beers under loud club music....... Just for a few minutes....

This was just another example of Pool treated the wrong way.
All of the people making profit out of Pool loose money in the long run since this way Pool will never move forward.....
The rest of us just get frustrated that as long as this is going on we will never see the day of really being proud about the sport......
 
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