Results from Changing out Phenolic Tip

[stevesdl]

I did look up Samsara and saw that they state a few interesting things.

1. "cue features a proprietary layered leather tip made by Samsara" - some of their cues mention this statement so I wonder if that tip you are speaking of only comes with their custom cues?

I have another concern if someone might have a better discernment. I noticed that some sticks such as mine mention phenolic ferrules - might these also qualify as part of the "ban"? (even though I think mine has been identified incorrectly and is a carbon fiber ferrule)

Stevesdl

 

[mdavis228]

It's the tip they are addressing - right or wrong. I wouldn't worry about your ferrule.

 

[Maniac]

Try breaking from different spots on the table. Sometimes you can hit them perfect and nothing falls. It just goes that way sometimes. Good luck.

BVal

....and try backing off on the power in small increments. I was having problems recently with my 8-ball break (scattering the crap out of the rack w/no balls pocketed). I backed off my break stroke to about 3/4 speed and instantly began making 2 to 3 balls and still scattering the balls well. It is worth the try!!!

Maniac

 

[pulzcul]

I don't think the white diamonds will be banned for their 'hardness'. But they might because they fit into the description of a non leather like substance. They actually are not brick hard like a phenolic. Their layered,sandable,and hold chalk well. I'm hoping the "organization" just sets a hardness scale and alows any tip softer than the cueball to be played. I would hate to lose them cause it turned my jumper into a magic wand. I also put one on my break cue with a pred shaft and although I don't get balls to fall in all the time I do get the most energy off the cue than I've ever had before. With all the different tables and cloth we play on thats all I can hope for. Gotta get a roll after that. Have fun

 

[McChen]

the non-layered black WB water buffalo tips are the hardest leather tips i've ever seen.

If that's not enough for ya, put one in a vice and squeeze it a little first.

These tips are so hard that they almost sound like phenolic.

i agree, these tips are extra hard. make sure to get the black ones, they're harder than the natural ones. to make them even harder, sand off some of the black coating and soak the tip in mineral spirits for a few days before pressing. when pressing really press the hell out of it and keep tightening a few times a day. you'll have a tip nearly as hard as phenolic, but all the good qualities of leather. i've also discovered a way to make the tip play even harder by installing it a certain way. before installing it, install 2 of the fiber pads beneath the tip. these pads are harder than leather. what this lets you do is cut the tip ultra thin without risking damage to the ferrule. so you end up with kind of a layered tip, with 2 layers of fiber padding, and a thin layer of leather on top. will hit really hard!

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Many people have a BIG BREAK that sound like a 105-mm Recoilless Rifle going off, but do not always sink (1) Ball, I honestly have better result with a Medium speed Break I can control, and my goal is Simple just to Sink 1 BALL!

 

[MitchAlsup]

I then had a Le Pro tip installed. The work was only $10.00 and so I felt the test with a medium hardness density of approx. 78.2 (Per Proper's density test results) was worth a testing and an acceptable loss if the tip does not work out.

Way too soft! You should be looking at tips in the 85+ range; likely of Water Buffalo construction.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

I found this on the internet and it appears Mr. Proper did this testing and posted hardness density results. (Partial list)

Medium Hard (Density = 76-80)
Le Pro - 78.2
Triumph - 76.9
Chandivert Champion - 74.2
Chandivert Crown - 77.1
Chandivert Comprime - 78.7
Tiger Dynamite - 77.2
Wild Boar - 77.8
Talisman Pro - 77.0
Porper Majestic - 77.4

Hard (Density = 81-85)
Sumo - 82.0
Triangle - 81.4
Tsunami - 82.4
Stratos - 81.1
Tiger Laminated - 81.0
Stingray - 83.5
Chandivert Rocky - 82.1
Moori - 82.7
Talisman - 81.4

Extra Hard (Density = 86+)
Talisman - 86.1
Stratos - 87.3
Tiger Jump/Break - 99

What web site did you get these tip densities from? What density is the Water Buffalo tip?

 

[The Saw]

I left the carbon fiber ferrule intact and only had the phenolic tip sanded down. I then had a Le Pro tip installed. The work was only $10.00 and so I felt the test with a medium hardness density of approx. 78.2 (Per Proper's density test results) was worth a testing and an acceptable loss if the tip does not work out.

Steve,

How thick is the tip you had put on? As others have mentioned, the hard WB tips are as hard as Kelseys' nuts and make good break tips. But the key IMO is to cut the tip down until it is VERY thin.

 

[MVPCues]

Thank you for the offer on the SuperPro - I looked them up and saw that they are a hardness density of about 74. That is a little softer than the Le Pro but of course all this hardness density scale might be a little flawed or inaccurate.

I fear we might be making a bad decision and letting a good thing pass by banning phenolic tips though. (Just my amateur opinion though) Back in the 70's I played #1 singles competitively with a Wilson T2000 and T3000 (First metal racquets). Today, the head on the super ultra lightweight carbon fiber racquets are some 60%-70% larger and during this evolution, the tennis ball manufaturers had to make changes to thier products for the harder hitting racquets. (Notice they did not consider the racquet improvement unfair, damaging, or illegal. - they went with game improvement) Now look at the game today.


I found this on the internet and it appears Mr. Proper did this testing and posted hardness density results. (Partial list)

Medium Hard (Density = 76-80)
Le Pro - 78.2
Triumph - 76.9
Chandivert Champion - 74.2
Chandivert Crown - 77.1
Chandivert Comprime - 78.7
Tiger Dynamite - 77.2
Wild Boar - 77.8
Talisman Pro - 77.0
Porper Majestic - 77.4

Hard (Density = 81-85)
Sumo - 82.0
Triangle - 81.4
Tsunami - 82.4
Stratos - 81.1
Tiger Laminated - 81.0
Stingray - 83.5
Chandivert Rocky - 82.1
Moori - 82.7
Talisman - 81.4

Extra Hard (Density = 86+)
Talisman - 86.1
Stratos - 87.3
Tiger Jump/Break - 99

A super pro is much harder than 74, way harder than a typical Le Pro. You either looked at the wrong "Super Pro", or the source you loooked at was simply in error. My source says a Super Pro is either 88 or 92, I can't remember for sure which. I have a Super Pro on my breaker.


Kelly

 

[Holly]

Thanks for the detailed information. Believe me, even though I work at CSI...no one is exempt. All of us at the office who have phenolics are going through the same issues...what to replace our phenolic tip with. I too will have to change out the tip on my beloved X-Breaker.

 

[BVal]

Thanks for the detailed information. Believe me, even though I work at CSI...no one is exempt. All of us at the office who have phenolics are going through the same issues...what to replace our phenolic tip with. I too will have to change out the tip on my beloved X-Breaker.

Hi Holly,

I have a Super Pro on my player and I also use it for breaking and the occasional full cue jump with no problems at all. Hope you are doing well.

BVal

 

[poolplayer2093]

Thanks for the detailed information. Believe me, even though I work at CSI...no one is exempt. All of us at the office who have phenolics are going through the same issues...what to replace our phenolic tip with. I too will have to change out the tip on my beloved X-Breaker.

if i were you i'd consider buying another shaft for it so if you decide to trade/sell the cue you can sell it the way it was meant to be

 

[snipershot]

I had a Tiger 99 installed on an inexpensive stick. I was breaking fairly well and consistently. Then I had the opportunity to buy a J&J Jump/Break. This stick breaks even better. Can anyone let me know what the tips is on a j&j?

Thanks,

Dwight

either phenolic or water buffalo.




Joe

 

[snipershot]

A super pro is much harder than 74, way harder than a typical Le Pro. You either looked at the wrong "Super Pro", or the source you loooked at was simply in error. My source says a Super Pro is either 88 or 92, I can't remember for sure which. I have a Super Pro on my breaker.


Kelly

it says its 74 in Meullers catalog.



Joe

 

[joeboxer]

A super pro is much harder than 74, way harder than a typical Le Pro. You either looked at the wrong "Super Pro", or the source you loooked at was simply in error. My source says a Super Pro is either 88 or 92, I can't remember for sure which. I have a Super Pro on my breaker.


Kelly

Exactly. Meullers is just wrong with this one if they have it at 74. IMO its in the 90 range.
Its also a water buffalo tip just like all the other hard water buffalo tips. Its just layered instead of one piece.
Great tip all around.

 

[stevesdl]

Some were asking the website I got the hardness density numbers from. Here is the link. I do blieve that sometimes there will be some tips that offer different densities for the same name. (Actually I saw that with one brand) I also mentioned that I thought Mr Porper had done the testing. My apology if I am wrong but I thought I read that somewhere in my research.

Just a thought - So there might be some name brand tips on this information that might refer to a different tip with the same name that some are using.

here is the link:
http://www.poolcuenews.com/2008/02/20/damn-my-tip-is-hard/

I have purchased 2 Water Buffalo's (testing one as is on the shaft and one shaved down to a very thin piece of tip as some have suggested) and two Samsara's and will be testing this weekend and the beginning of next week. I will give my thoughts on the tests as I go. Obviously they will be a little bias but I will try to be honest without saying "my stick is better than someone else's"...

Thank you everyone for the discussions. Man have I learned alot from all the replies here and the research that I was forced to do. Very much appreciated.

Stevesdl

 

[stevesdl]

My personal tests results are in. I understand some state its not "necessarily the tip" but the stroke, CB placement and action. I agree a good bit to that but I believed in the past that the tip made some significant difference as well.. My "personal" tests made me still believe that theory. (Maybe a certain tip just doesn't perform well on a certain cue? - I don't believe too much in that but ...)

Elite Break Cue - 22 OZ
After Phenolic Tip testing, removed tip but left carbon\phenolic ferrule
50+ breaks testing for each tip (except Samsara - 39 breaks)

Phenolic Tip
1. Scattering the balls on the entire table
2. Leaving the CB in the middle of the table about 75% of the time
3. Averaging 2 balls per break. (a couple 0 balls on break and a few 3 balls on break)


Le Pro - 50+ breaks
1. I had problems scattering the balls on the entire table
2. I was only about 60% of the time leaving the CB in the middle
3. Had problems averaging 1 ball per break.


Water Buffalo (Full Tip) - 50 breaks
1. Scattering the balls on the entire table (but see #2 and #3)
2. I was only about 60% of the time leaving the CB in the middle
3. Had problems averaging 1 ball per break.


Water Buffalo (Shaved Tip) - 50 breaks
1. Sightly harder break feel but just about the same results as Water Buffalo (Full Tip)
2. Balls were continuously scattering entire table but just not getting into the pockets.


Dufferin 1 Piece Home Cue (20 OZ)
1. Scattering the balls on the entire table
2. I was only about 60% of the time leaving the CB in the middle
3. Averaging 1 ball per break.


Samsara - 39 Breaks
1. Immediately dropped 2 balls on break
2. Scattering the balls on the entire table (Tables run after breaks almost sure thing. Not rare to see few if any nested balls)
3. Averaging 2 balls per break. (a couple 0 balls on break and a few 3-4 balls on break)
4. Having big problems leaving CB in middle of table on an average though; even after 39 breaks so I have some work cut out for me.

A special thanks to Eric Hirsh at Atlas Billiard Supplies for getting me these tips very quickly and the time he spent on the phone with me discussing the tip subject.


Personal Conclusion
Hands down - Samsara Tip.

 

[rayjay]

I have a Gulyassy/Samsara jb with the phenolic ferrule-tip. Thinking that I couldn't use this in league, I filed the ferrule flat and installed a White Diamond tip (thinking that I could use this in league because it is not phenolic and is a fiber based material). It works great. Now I find out that my LO will not enforce the rule during league play, but if we go to Vegas I have to have a leather tip. I didn't need the White Diamond, but now it will be easy to take off and put on a thin milkdud if we go to vegas. What it apparently comes down to is that the Gulyassy/Samsara is a great design and my technique is good enough so that the tip really doesn't matter. Not sure if I'll leave the milkdud on (if I go to Vegas) or put the WD back. Probably doesn't matter.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Your tip is the wrong tip for sure...Lepro's 100% not the move.

Try a water buffalo tip.

I doubt all things being equal your phenolic alone gave you an average of 1 ball more per break. Not saying you're lying, trust me... it's just unlikely.

The phenolic tip will send out a knuckle-ball most of the time whereas the leather delivers a little more grab on off-center hits. Break slower and focus on hitting the center and not close to the center. If you hit the center and hard, you'll find your results will be the same with a water buffalo. If not, it might be in your head.

You just diagnosed your own problem above with the water buffalo.... if you're not parking the CB in the center of the table, you're simply not striking the CB correctly. If the CB flies around, it's not the tip - it's you.

Anyone else have experience with both samsara and water buffalo tips? I can't imaging the samsara would be a better breaking tip.