Ron V aiming system video and diagrams
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Dave,SpiderWebComm said:
I think all of us have been saying that the pivot point needs to be behind the bridge for these longer shots.
The point of difference is that we have said that the cue position at the bridge hand needs to move to achieve this, and move significantly.
That's why we wanted to see a video, to track the position of the cue in the bridge relative to the 90/90 aim position, so we can see how it moves the way you are doing it.
btw: Still waiting for video to load. I used up my broadband for the month
Colin
Dave,
I've seen the video now.
It's not clear enough, nor in the best position to track the 90/90 line aim and the bridge position, but it seems pretty clear that you are shifting the bridge to allow for a pivot from around the 25 inch position.
While the fingers on the cloth may not move, that does not mean that the upper hand and hence the point where the cue is resting on the hand doesn't move. Maybe you just have a weird perspective on what we refer to as a fixed bridge.
Anyway, thanks for the video and having the b@lls to put your method up for all to see.
Colin
I've seen the video now.
It's not clear enough, nor in the best position to track the 90/90 line aim and the bridge position, but it seems pretty clear that you are shifting the bridge to allow for a pivot from around the 25 inch position.
While the fingers on the cloth may not move, that does not mean that the upper hand and hence the point where the cue is resting on the hand doesn't move. Maybe you just have a weird perspective on what we refer to as a fixed bridge.
Anyway, thanks for the video and having the b@lls to put your method up for all to see.
Colin
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Colin Colenso said:
I never said there was no cue movement. Look way earlier in the thread. I just said I didn't think it was a 1/2", which I thought was a lot.
I did say the bridge didn't move, which your gif shows that it's not.
I said that the pivot point was behind the bridge forever now... but I am pretty sure you and PJ have said that was impossible during the entire thread...ie. the bridge MUST be the pivot point. After 45 or 46 pages, I forget... but I'm pretty sure that's what caused the argument with PJ and I (the infamous bet).
The bet was that a bridge pivot and body pivot were equal in his eyes, geometrically. Am I wrong? Not that I care. The gif clearly shows the bridge is not the pivot point. Maybe it is 1/2" shift in the bridge, it sure doesn't feel like it... but that was never the discussion since the beginning of the thread. The base of the bridge is static, that was my quote the entire time.
Anyways, now that this has been established, I think I'll start another thread outlining all of the details of the adjustments, etc., with Ron's system so others who want to know can learn.
I'd like to hear from PJ on this, eventually.
Dave
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Colin Colenso said:
That's not true. Even you said a few pages back that your results were identical from a bridge pivot vs. a hip pivot. That was the entire point / reason for this thread being 40-something pages instead of 6 or 7. Both you and PJ argued the bridge "must" be the pivot point. I won't go back and quote your past quotes, because that's PJ-like.
This discussion has somehow shifted from the pivot-point location (the cause of the hayhem) to shift within your bridge. I mentioned super-early in this thread that the cue moves radially in the bridge--which it does. I questioned if it shifted 1/2" - but it might - I just don't feel it.
I'm not gonna re-hash anything since the peace accord... but it's important for the viewers of this thread to note what was say by all parties before the "blow-up" and what everyone is saying now... a little John Kerry flip-flopping. Everyone was against the pivot point not being the bridge before they were all for it.
Anyways, I think I've proved my point pretty well. It's easy to nitpick little ticks and tweaks in the video, because hey-- you didn't make it. BUUUUUUT, I'm CONFIDENT no one is looking to drive 6 hours anymore with the intention of collecting from little, young naive Spidey. I can do the same test with the cue in the "V" of my open bridge - which I should have done prob. It's alllll the same.
I'll let the spinsters spin this into a discussion it never was to detract from the core point of this thread---- AND THAT WAS PJ'S DIAGRAMS SHOWING THE BRIDGE AS THE PIVOT POINT. SINCE THE BRIDGE IS "ALWAYS" THE PIVOT POINT, THE SYSTEM CAN'T POSSIBLY WORK.
*cricket* *cricket* *chirp* *cricket*
SpiderWebComm said:
Dave,
As I have suspected all along, once we understand the system better the "impossible" geometry issues take care of themselves. The details of the system are what I am interested in. Please do start your new thread. Many people are likely to have given up on this one already and would never see the information here.
Hu
SpiderWebComm said:
The disconnect is with the term "movement".
By movement, you mean that the base of the bridge hand doesn't move (as in slide across the table), and others interpret it as meaning that the bridge hand might as well be frozen in liquid nitrogen and glued to the table.
cigjonser said:
LMFAO... that wasn't the intent. Earlier in the thread I mentioned numerous times the bridge was "not a point" as per PJ's diagrams.
Post 53: The infamous diagram showing the bridge as the pivot point
Post 57: Me saying that it's not, and how I feel I'm pivoting multiple feet back (per my demonstration and Colin's GIF, looks like 2' - so I wasn't totally crazy)
Post 59: Me again saying the bridge wasn't the pivot point
Post 61: PJ saying the bridge is the pivot point and that Ron pivots from the bridge
etc. etc...this is when the blow up started.
The people on this board are pretty educated in general. Many people thought the bridge could only be the pivot point (fact) and little ole me said that wasn't true and everything went down-hill from there.
You can also dig up posts where I say the base of the bridge is static... and I said "base of the bridge" multiple times... If your skin shifts, well - that means you're human.
The entire point of this particular post was the INTENT of this entire thread turning into 50 pages. PJ said the system couldn't geometrically work because the bridge IS the pivot point. There were other respected posters who chimed in backing him up (many of whom I'm friends with, so it's cool).
I'm just curious if they still stand by those diagrams..... THAT'S the bottom line.
Dave,SpiderWebComm said:
I also don't want to re-hash every comment on this thread. If I didn't discuss, or talk much about where the cue needed to pivot from it was certainly on my mind.
The focus of the debate was on claims that the bridge didn't move, which you and Ron said. I was trying to clarify. And when it was said that the cue was pivoting from further back, I was trying to point out that it can't do that while staying in the same position at the bridge.
You said the bridge doesn't move, but that the cue pivots around/through the bridge, as I understand. I guess we just have a different language to interpret what pivoting through or around a bridge means.
I think PJ's diagrams were right in so far as they were depicting what was explained in the original post, which marked the bridge as the pivot point.
If we accept that the pivot point is not always at the bridge then yes, a wide range of shots can be made by this system. But that is only true if the pivot point changes for different lengths and angles.
Colin
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So now you're (finally) saying this "system" works by deforming your bridge like that? If so, this is the first time you've admitted that.
And I doubt that RonV will agree that's how he operates his system. At least I hope he'd disagree, because it would be a big step backward from no system at all.
pj
chgo
Rubyron said:I think you hit the nail on the head. This is where I was confused.
The bridge hand has to move to get the pivot point where it is in this picture but not the fingers where they are touching the table.
Thank you. Nice post. The base doesn't move-- the cue moves, the term I continuously use is... "radially" through the bridge. Whenever you "turn" a cue through a bridge hand, the loop will shift because the hole needs to go with the wood.
Colin, thanks in your post above. We have a break through. The bridge isn't always the pivot point (although can be). I'm not disagreeing with anything else you said-- I'm open to everything you mentioned and want to learn more.
I feel at peace now. Like Dr. David Banner found a cure for the Hulk.
I'll get with Cleary and we'll post the details of the RonV system in detail. Let's all promise to keep the geometric talk HERE in this thread... and the HOWS in that thread so it's not hijacked.
That will be the best for everyone.
Many people are pocketing well with Ron's system. This thread, believe it or not, answers a lot of questions with Hal's CTE system as well. Many people could not pocket a ball because they bridged close to the CB and then bridge-pivoted to center ball--- which is incorrect.
I hope those who tried either of these systems unsuccessfully will make another go at it with the new, correct, info.
Personally, it's my true belief we'll never know EXACTLY what really happens because a human body is not a lever, pivot point and two-dimensional. I would guess the geometric proof of what really happens is beyond any of us. That's my guess. The result for all those who use the system is overall very positive. Let's leave it for what it is - and encourage things that positively help everyone's games instead of trying your heart out to talk people out of it.
spidey
Patrick Johnson said:
When you use BHE, is your bridge deforming when your index finger shifts with the wood?
*rolling my eyes*
Every time I'm wrong on this board, I admit it. Next thing you'll say is I'm pivoting on my bridge.
If we're gonna have a healthy relationship on here, at least each of us should be a man when we're wrong.
Point out where I've been wrong, and I'll admit it and move on. I'm a man.
Edit: Are your diagrams still accurate?
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Spidey,Colin Colenso said:
Thanks for posting the new video. It makes it much clearer what is happening. You are pivoting the cue about a point close to the rail by shifting your bridge hand (i.e., the bridge is not serving as a fixed pivot).
Colin,
Thank you for going through the trouble of isolating the stills in your animation. Not only can you see the bridge clearly move, you can also see where the effective pivot of the cue is (at the rail).
After 650+ posts, I think we have finally gotten to the bottom of things.
Regards,
Dave
It doesn't matter who was right or wrong with the silly bet thing. There was obviously a "failure to communicate". Your video and Colin's animation now make it perfectly clear what is happening, regardless of what vocabulary you use to describe it. It is entirely possible that everybody was correct (i.e., everybody is a winner), depending on how you define the words and phrases you use.
Why can't everybody just make up and kiss, and show some love for a change.
Peace,
Dave
Why can't everybody just make up and kiss, and show some love for a change.
Peace,
Dave
SpiderWebComm said:
dr_dave said:
SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCH!!!!!!
I wasn't trying to dig, the bet wasn't in my mind. My intent was to end this road and move to another avenue --- but I wanted to make sure this road was "done." I don't want to start a new thread and everything here is still unresolved. That's all.
OXOXOXOXOXOX
Dave