Skid

lfigueroa said:
I believe he says that some players thought the balls were lighter, when they are not. He said the balls react faster, which I take to mean they have a greater COR.

In any case, ball sets -- like Centennials, Super Pro, Duramith, from the same manufacturer -- all play a little different from each other. Even similar sets, from pool room to pool room, are going to be different from age and care. Gotta be able to adjust.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,
How would you "adjust" to skid shots? Even if there were more incidents of skid due to the balls, it still is the exception and not the norm, right? So you wouldn't know when the skid was going to happen.

If you adjusted to the 5% of shots that skidded, wouldn't you miss the other 95%?

edit: Looks like you already answered.
 
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lfigueroa said:
I think many of us, who have played for many years, have an intuitive feeling that certain shots and cut angles are likely to skid. For me, it's usually a medium speed cut shot with follow, with about a foot or two between the CB and OB, and a cut angle of around 20 degrees. (Don't know that I've ever gotten skid on a draw shot...)

On those days that I'm tuned into awareness about potential skid, I'll usually play shots like that a little firmer to avoid the skid.

Lou Figueroa
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Yeah, I don't think there is a chance of skid with a draw shot since the CB's backspin is pushing the OB away from it and eliminates the chance that they cling together by that reverse gear kind of action that can actually climb one ball on top of another.

edit ... nor is there a chance of skid with a little outside english, since that english has the same effect of pushing the OB away from the CB as it rolls off the OB on the horizontal axis. So in a nutshell to avoid skid, a firmer hit, or draw, ( I call it a pinch stroke) or outside english will all eliminate the problem on a particular shot.
 
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Diamond69 said:
Lou,
How would you "adjust" to skid shots? Even if there were more incidents of skid due to the balls, it still is the exception and not the norm, right? So you wouldn't know when the skid was going to happen.

If you adjusted to the 5% of shots that skidded, wouldn't you miss the other 95%?

edit: Looks like you already answered.
Click to expand...


Diamond, I don't know how to explain it. But in discussions with other players they have said similar things: on some shots "you just know" that there's a potential skid. My solution is just to play the shot at a little firmer speed because my feeling is that at a lower speed my chances of a skid -- on the type of shot I described earlier -- go up.

It's a weird thing. It always seems to be a follow shot, a shallow angle, with the balls not too far a part, and medium slow stroke speed.

Lou Figueroa
skid happens
 
lfigueroa said:
I said it was an intuitive feeling for potential skid. I think the probability for skid is higher for the type of shot I described, as opposed to a longer shot, or steeper cut angle, or draw. Just relating my experience.

Lou Figueroa
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So essentially you are better than Chris because he apparently does not posses the same level of intuitive feeling for potential skid as you have.
 
JB Cases said:
So essentially you are better than Chris because he apparently does not posses the same level of intuitive feeling for potential skid as you have.
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lol. You are something, John. And this kind of stuff is a prime example of why it's hard to take you seriously.

Lou Figueroa
still laughing
 
lfigueroa said:
Diamond, I don't know how to explain it. But in discussions with other players they have said similar things: on some shots "you just know" that there's a potential skid. My solution is just to play the shot at a little firmer speed because my feeling is that at a lower speed my chances of a skid -- on the type of shot I described earlier -- go up.

It's a weird thing. It always seems to be a follow shot, a shallow angle, with the balls not too far a part, and medium slow stroke speed.

Lou Figueroa
skid happens
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Skid happens? So is it because of chalk or not? Because I contend, based on YOUR post that you can not predict skid at all.

If, as you claim, skid is only because of chalk, then how can you predict that because of an angle that there is a likelihood that the moment of contact will be one with chalk between the balls?

You are contradicting yourself.
 
lfigueroa said:
lol. You are something, John. And this kind of stuff is a prime example of why it's hard to take you seriously.

Lou Figueroa
still laughing
Click to expand...

Well, Chris is complaining about skids. We are discussing what they are. He says Scott Frost was complaining even more. You told him flat out that it's all about the chalk and not about the balls.... then you go on to say that you know when skids are likely to happen.

So ergo, you must be better than Scott and Chris and all the pro players who get skids because you can intuitively feel when they are likely to happen and adjust wheras they obviously cannot.

I find it to be an incredible talent to be able to predict that the cue ball will contact the object ball precisely at the spot where a piece of chalk happens to be lodged. Because if you're right in what you told Chris then no chalk means no skid.
 
lfigueroa said:
I believe he says that some players thought the balls were lighter, when they are not. He said the balls react faster, which I take to mean they have a greater COR.

In any case, ball sets -- like Centennials, Super Pro, Duramith, from the same manufacturer -- all play a little different from each other. Even similar sets, from pool room to pool room, are going to be different from age and care. Gotta be able to adjust.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,

Agreed about the need to adjust.

My point was that plastics, resins, are complex and different materials & even formulations of the same materials have different properties. It's not just size, weight, etc. One has to take in ALL parameters, If not, the conclusions can be faulty. These balls, for some reason, may actually react differently & that difference certainly can be significant at least in certain situations.

Adjustment to different balls that may react a bit differently will take time. For some, more time than others. Some will detect no difference. While others may find them very very different.

I hate the red circle ball. The logo ball is okay. I can tell almost immediately & I can't even see the logo without my reading glasses.

The Cyclop balls may be THE ball of choice in few months. I have always liked the Centenial balls when the cue ball matches in EVERY way.

I hope you see my points.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Skid can happen even on perfectly clean balls. It is the product of the physics of the ball's interaction. The gear effect, for lack of a better term.

It occurs at just that right speed, and angle where the OB wants to start it's rotational movement a split second before it's forward movement while the CB already has forward movement.

The dirt on the balls just makes it a bit easier to happen.
 
3andstop said:
Skid can happen even on perfectly clean balls. It is the product of the physics of the ball's interaction. The gear effect, for lack of a better term.

It occurs at just that right speed, and angle where the OB wants to start it's rotational movement a split second before it's forward movement while the CB already has forward movement.

The dirt on the balls just makes it a bit easier to happen.
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Any proof of this? I think we need to have a CLEAR definition of what skid is then.

Lou said earlier it's ALL chalk. So are you contradicting him?
 
lfigueroa said:
But, it is worth noting that blaming skid -- when you've actually just blown the shot -- is a very popular excuse amongst pros, semi-pros, and amateurs :-)
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I played a rack of 9-ball and had seven balls skid on me. (Not Cyclops, not Aramith...some 10-year old no-name balls)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
In my 47 years, I've only had a couple of skids but they were both my fault for not recognizing the possibility & planning for it.

That's my story, but I will change it accordingly.
 
A more smooth surface, without interference (e.g. moisture, chalk, dirt), will be more likely to skid. Case in point, clay balls (rough surface) never skidded.
 
bdorman said:
I played a rack of 9-ball and had seven balls skid on me. (Not Cyclops, not Aramith...some 10-year old no-name balls)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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You had at least SEVEN different innings in ONE rack of 9 ball?
ack2.gif

Who were you playing against? Stevie Wonder?
 
John,

I thing the word skid is being used differently in 'Crowns' definition.

When you apply a car's breaks too hard the car 'skids' with much friction between the tires & the road, rubber to asphalt.

When something is slippery things slip off of it due to a lack of friction. like glass on an incline.

So if the CB slips of off the OB there would be less skid.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick

PS I know you know this. I was just making a general statement not so much to you.
 
JB Cases said:
So then maybe the best way to play is to clean the balls between racks. Maybe John Schmidt has a point after all although I am sure you have a very good comeback here.

As in what about having two sets of balls? Switch them out every rack.

After all in Tennis the players can reject the balls and they go through several cans of balls in a match.

For sure the cue ball should be cleaned before every break then.
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Chalk, dirt, and humidity have always been my suspects !

Everytime before I put the cueball in play I have the chance to clean it.

And I do, it has been a habit as long as I can remember.

:cool:
 
I would look to three things after skids in this tournament:

1. Whatever they use to clean the balls - clean balls are better, but if the cleanser is not fully wiped off
and leaves some residue, that residue can help chalk stick to the ball.
Even just plain water can do that. Balls should be dried carefully.
If they either didn't get cleaned, or didn't get dried... more chalk on the balls.

2. The black rubbery scuff marks left by diamond pockets. I can see these on the live stream,
and I've seen them up close. You better believe if you're unlucky enough to have the cue ball
hit one, that object ball is hitching a ride with the cue ball for a split second.

3. Chalk. No idea what brand was used for the event, but some chalk cakes onto object balls
a little more easily than other brands.

I don't think brand of balls matters much unless one brand happens to have a really rough
surface that grabs chalk and other balls really easily. But I'm assuming these balls
are smooth and polished.
 
I read a lot about how, in the old days, skids where much less likely to occur than you see today. This got me to thinking about how this could possibly be true.

All materials have a tendency to either give up electrons (and become more positively charged), or to attract electrons (and become more negatively charged) when rubbed against each other. This is the basis for the phenomenon known as static electricity.

Materials can be tested experimentally and then assigned a number on what is called the "triboelectric scale". Phenolic resins have a high affinity for electrons (varies depending on their exact composition) and become negatively charged, whereas wool (as in table cloth) has an affinity for giving them up and becoming more positively charged. When one of these is rubbed against the other (as in backspin or forward roll), a charge disparity is built up.

Most dust particles are positively charged, so a negatively charged ball will attract dust particles to its surface. Nylon has an even stronger affinity for developing a positive charge that does wool (+30 vs. 0 for wool). Maybe the new fabrics in use today (which contain a significant percentage of nylon in addition to wool), create a more negatively charged ball than in bygone years, thereby attracting more skid-causing dust to its surface.

BTW Teflon, due to the presence of highly electronegative fluorine atoms, is about -190 on the triboelectric scale. Anybody notice less skidding when playing on Teflon treated cloth?
 
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