The Fould Heard Around the World.

[arsenius]

Apparently the ref didn't call the foul in real time so from his viewpoint it wasn't clear if it was a foul or not until viewing the replay so the question remains, was replay used in other instances? If not, then I say Bustamonte should have received the same treatment as anyone else and a shot too close for the ref to call goes to the shooter. As I said earlier, if replay was in general use at the event Francisco has no complaint coming.

My question isn't whether this was a foul or not but if the same procedure was used on this shot as the other close calls at the event. In real time our eyes are drawn to faster movement. I have read no indication that the ref made a call before watching the replay.

Hu

This is an important point, but in my opinion you didn't go far enough. I would argue that Bustamante was not treated fairly in this case based on the fact that not all of the matches were videotaped (at least as far as I know, there was only one TV table). Therefore, even if video evidence was used in some cases it was not available in all cases.

However, I am aware that some rules change based on whether a referee is present or not (can't remember what they are offhand). And the rules in pool regularly change as you get towards the finals also, having longer or (disgustingly) shorter sets, so you could argue that there is precedent for "conditional rules."

 

[Fleece3]

I agree that it was a foul, as I have said 25 times now....
My question is ------ Has this ever been used before in a tournament?
I keep asking this and you take it somewhere else.....

Perhaps you missed the first two words of my reply, let me repeat...

"DON'T KNOW"​

Can you hear me now???

I think there were very few shots, this close, in a tournament that had access to video replay. This being the WPC, replay was available.

But if it was or wasn't, what"s your point? Some NFL play HAD to be the first reviewed, some NBA shot HAD to be the first reviewed, etc, etc. etc.... Did you really want Busta to win, and anything obstructing that is REALLY BAD?

 

[BPG24]

Perhaps you missed the first two words of my reply, let me repeat...

"DON'T KNOW"​

Can you hear me now???

I think there were very few shots, this close, in a tournament that had access to video replay. This being the WPC, replay was available.

But if it was or wasn't, what"s your point? Some NFL play HAD to be the first reviewed, some NBA shot HAD to be the first reviewed, etc, etc. etc.... Did you really want Busta to win, and anything obstructing that is REALLY BAD?

Forget it, you continue to drag out nothing....... it was just a question nothing more

 

[JAM]

I agree that it was a foul, as I have said 25 times now....
My question is ------ Has this ever been used before in a tournament?
I keep asking this and you take it somewhere else.....

I can answer your question.

At the IPT King of the Hill held in Orlando, Florida, in December 2005, the instant replay was used.

Ironically, Francisco Bustamante was one of the players, and Marlon Manalo was the other. Marlon tried to play a safety. The audience got vocal, stating the Marlon hit the rail first and not the object ball first.

The referee went to the tournament director and said there was a problem with a questionable hit. They used the instant replay and came back, stating it was a foul. Marlon was upset, but did not display any negative emotions.

After the match, I asked Bustamante about it, and he said he didn't even see the shot!

JAM

 

[BPG24]

I can answer your question.

At the IPT King of the Hill held in Orlando, Florida, in December 2005, the instant replay was used.

Ironically, Francisco Bustamante was one of the players, and Marlon Manalo was the other. Marlon tried to play a safety. The audience got vocal, stating the Marlon hit the rail first and not the object ball first.

The referee went to the tournament director and said there was a problem with a questionable hit. They used the instant replay and came back, stating it was a foul. Marlon was upset, but did not display any negative emotions.

After the match, I asked Bustamante about it, and he said he didn't even see the shot!

JAM

TYVM JAM.... thats all I wanted to know.....

 

[Black-Balled]

Ok so was this the first time?

thats the question....

Fowwwwllll!

To not answer the question.

 

[CreeDo]

Foul karma almost bit peach in the ass....

For fun I dled the video and did it frame by frame, and it was definitely a foul, which we all seem agreed on.

What I'm surprised nobody mentioned (or maybe I missed it) is the almost-foul he committed on the final shot to win the whole thing. It struck me as very foolish. Actually I hadn't noticed or cared until a youtube commenter pointed it out.

Peach shoots the 9 and then drops his stick on the table and lets his head fall forward into his arms *before the cue ball stops moving*... the cue ball then spins off the short rail, the long rail, and seems to come really close to the tip of the resting cue before stopping. It looks like it missed the tip by 3-4 inches... but of course from the TV camera angle, everything looks shorter, sharp 4 foot cuts look like hangers from that low angle. But still!

Had it touched the cue, it's a foul and he'd have given up the winning rack and we might have been looking at a different champion.

 

[BPG24]

For fun I dled the video and did it frame by frame, and it was definitely a foul, which we all seem agreed on.

What I'm surprised nobody mentioned (or maybe I missed it) is the almost-foul he committed on the final shot to win the whole thing. It struck me as very foolish. Actually I hadn't noticed or cared until a youtube commenter pointed it out.

Peach shoots the 9 and then drops his stick on the table and lets his head fall forward into his arms *before the cue ball stops moving*... the cue ball then spins off the short rail, the long rail, and seems to come really close to the tip of the resting cue before stopping. It looks like it missed the tip by 3-4 inches... but of course from the TV camera angle, everything looks shorter, sharp 4 foot cuts look like hangers from that low angle. But still!

Had it touched the cue, it's a foul and he'd have given up the winning rack and we might have been looking at a different champion.

We had conversations about that immediately after the match..... Might not have been in tis thread... but Peach definately didn't realize that he almost threw his stick into the cue ball

 

[PoolBum]

Peach shoots the 9 and then drops his stick on the table and lets his head fall forward into his arms *before the cue ball stops moving*... the cue ball then spins off the short rail, the long rail, and seems to come really close to the tip of the resting cue before stopping. It looks like it missed the tip by 3-4 inches... but of course from the TV camera angle, everything looks shorter, sharp 4 foot cuts look like hangers from that low angle. But still!

Had it touched the cue, it's a foul and he'd have given up the winning rack and we might have been looking at a different champion.

They once showed a video of the winning shot in one of the BCA 8-ball championships on tv where the woman makes the 8 and then tosses her cuestick on the table and starts jumping up and down. The cueball was traveling directly toward the corner pocket with plenty of speed and her cuetstick slammed into it, yet they didn't call a foul.

 

[sjm]

I also noticed Peach's near infraction when it happened, but a world champion knows were he can and can't drop his stick. My inclination here is to view Darryl's judgment in where he could drop his stick as world campionship caliber.

 

[gopi-1]

TYVM JAM.... thats all I wanted to know.....

... and if you're really interested about the precedent BPG, I'm submitting this
video as evidence no. 1! Just repaying you for all the video favors you did buddy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQPGzwcuy3w

 

[bagofpaper]

Ok so was this the first time?

thats the question....

No I've seen accustats tapes where replay was used (think it was 1p with Parica.. one of Grady's tournaments).. and I've seen others where Billy says they won't use replay. If you have the means.. then use it I say!

 

[Fixer]

"watched the video that Joey posted a link to. The camera angle isn't good for showing the actual points of contact, but it is plenty good for showing which ball moves first.

Someone posted saying they have made good hits and the first ball hit never move. While that is possible, I don't think that is anywhere near possible here.

1. Nothing was behind the 3 impeding it from being moved.
2. The 3 did move, after the 9 moved. Is that a delayed reaction? I don't think the cueball could strike the 3, then hit the 9, then go back and hit the 3 to make it move.
3. For the nine to travel 3/4 the length of the table into the pocket, there was a fair amount of energy transferred to it. If the cueball strikes the 3 first, it would have moved more and immediately given how far the 9 traveled, even on a very thin hit.

I am convinced some people are better at judging hits than others. I agree with Fatboy, some people get a reputation for having that eye. Mickey Mantle said he could see the rotation of the strings on a baseball thrown from the pitcher's mound. After having arguments/discussions with some, who I felt were honest about what they think they saw or couldn't judge, it is clear to me that we all don't process visual snapshots from our eyes at the same real time rate.

Kelly"







On nr 2: I think it can. The 9-ball and cue ball was directed towards the 3 ball. But I dont think it did in this case. I belive however that Django did think so. I really do.

Off topic: DARN close that Peach fouled the winning 9-ball in the final! Had the cue ball hit his cue....

 

[Zirroe]

The human eye alone could not be 100% about that shot and the cameras are not either. I am a film major at school and since Bustamante really believed he hit the three first there is a slight chance he might have thinned the 3. I know I am going to get a lot of shit for this but I really believe that no one can be 100% sure of this shot unless it was filmed at least 100 frames per second, TV is 30 frames per second. Maybe he did hit the three first. I'm not blind of course I also saw the 9 move first on the replay but there is that slight chance that it was a good shot. I'm not saying that the call was bad, but I dont like how everyone is bad mouthing Bustamante for trying to pretend that the hit was good, he was not pretending he truly believed that he hit it good and unless the evidence of the footage was at a faster frame rate then we can never be 100% sure.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I really believe that no one can be 100% sure of this shot unless it was filmed at least 100 frames per second, ...

Even faster than that might be needed to see some shots, but I think that having a camera closely framed on just the nine and 3 would have helped a lot in deciding the shot even at 30 FPS. It would have been easier to project or interpolate the path of the cue ball. The overhead shot in the clip is almost useless for that.

 

[azhousepro]

Thomas Overbeck said that the rules state a ref can use any resources available to him in order to make a call. A ref can even ask spectators what happened if he wants (not that it would have worked this time)

I was standing in the media area when the shot happened and everyone around me could plainly see that it was a foul.

It was just unfortunate that Nigel did not immediately call it a foul instead of letting Busty and the fans watch the 9 move down the table and drop in the hole.

Mike

 

[PoolBum]

I'm not saying that the call was bad, but I dont like how everyone is bad mouthing Bustamante for trying to pretend that the hit was good, he was not pretending he truly believed that he hit it good and unless the evidence of the footage was at a faster frame rate then we can never be 100% sure.

I like Fransisco a lot and I was sorry to see him lose such a heartbreaking match, but I'm not convinced that he himself thought it was a good hit.

 

[9_Ball_King]

Hoped anyway...

I like Fransisco a lot and I was sorry to see him lose such a heartbreaking match, but I'm not convinced that he himself thought it was a good hit.

Busty's my favorite player but I think it would be more accurate to say he HOPED it was a good hit.....but I think deep down he knew he fouled....the way he reacted if it was unsportsmanlike at all....I do not hold against him because of the amount of pressure at that moment in time....he don't wanna win that way.....and it was just so microscopically close man! I know deep down in my heart that if I was drinking a San Miguel sitting beside Django in a bar right now....we would toast and after I asked him "Was it a good hit?"....He would respond "No...are you crazy?" But hear this.....I do not think any less of Django now......he is a player of integrity........I just feel sorry for the dude a little bit......I mean this was the one for him to win.....I feel he came closer to winning this year's WPC than he did when he finished 2nd to Earl in ......2002 was it?

 

[alstl]

I like Fransisco a lot and I was sorry to see him lose such a heartbreaking match, but I'm not convinced that he himself thought it was a good hit.

Regardless, the shot that cost him the match was the previous shot when he stretched out and bridged the length of the shaft instead of using the crutch.

 

[PoolBum]

Busty's my favorite player but I think it would be more accurate to say he HOPED it was a good hit.....but I think deep down he knew he fouled....the way he reacted if it was unsportsmanlike at all....I do not hold against him because of the amount of pressure at that moment in time....he don't wanna win that way.....and it was just so microscopically close man! I know deep down in my heart that if I was drinking a San Miguel sitting beside Django in a bar right now....we would toast and after I asked him "Was it a good hit?"....He would respond "No...are you crazy?" But hear this.....I do not think any less of Django now......he is a player of integrity........I just feel sorry for the dude a little bit......I mean this was the one for him to win.....I feel he came closer to winning this year's WPC than he did when he finished 2nd to Earl in ......2002 was it?

I agree. I like Francisco a lot and I think he was dying to win it, especially in his home country. I don't blame him for his reaction or for pleading his case to the ref.

I don't know about this being closer than 2002. He was up 15-13 in that final match and he missed a couple of jump shots near the end--one on a 9-ball combo IIRC--which turned the tide, and then Earl came with four great racks at the end like a champion.