You mean back when he charged $50 for entries, $30 for tour cards, and then couldn't remember the following week that you bought a tour card? Because I sure as hell do.
The truth about the GSBT event in Bristol TN
- Thread starter TruthWillCome
- Start date
You mean back when he charged $50 for entries, $30 for tour cards, and then couldn't remember the following week that you bought a tour card? Because I sure as hell do.
Should we know
Should we know how much money Mcdonalds has in a 6 piece chicken nugget. I mean, should they have to tell us how much money they paid for the nuggets, how much they have in utilities, payroll, and insurance. Add all of that together divided by how many nuggets they sell per month. And then decide if we buy the nuggets. Or, should we decide that we like the nuggets and just buy them.
Either get over it or dont play. Or maybe you could spend more time figuring how to make your tour better, instead of wasting time by creating a million other screen names in an obvious attempt to make others look bad.
Should we know how much money Mcdonalds has in a 6 piece chicken nugget. I mean, should they have to tell us how much money they paid for the nuggets, how much they have in utilities, payroll, and insurance. Add all of that together divided by how many nuggets they sell per month. And then decide if we buy the nuggets. Or, should we decide that we like the nuggets and just buy them.
Either get over it or dont play. Or maybe you could spend more time figuring how to make your tour better, instead of wasting time by creating a million other screen names in an obvious attempt to make others look bad.
Again, I'm not against GSBT or anyone in particular...
But this is an invalid argument.
If you go to mcdonald's and they say well we can't tell you how many nuggets are in the container until after you buy it, and then you just accept it. Or they tell you how MANY nuggets are in them but don't tell you how big they are and they're half the size that is implied by the packaging.
The idea of a money added tourney is that there is ADDED money to the entry fees. If there is less than the entry fees, then it's not an added money tourney.
Do the tours need to make money? Absolutely. Just disclose it. If you bill a tourney as 25% of entry fee is tour and entry fees, or a $20 tour card is necessary to play entry fee is $100, then you say $1500 added money tourney.
So you get 50 people to show up. the payout should 5250. If it's not, then you are being dishonest and you should change the advertising to relate that. If only 3450 of that is being paid out, then a statement needs to be added addressing that.
To the people who have stated that if you sign up and they have stated the payouts, then you know what you are signing up for and shouldn't complain, I absolutely agree.
I have never seen a tourney that has stated the payouts ahead of time as soon as they start taking sign ups, so that is unrealistic to expect. You have to know how many people sign up before you can state that.
If you want to be honest then you have to come up with a method of disclosing what the payouts are going to be as soon as you start taking signups.
There are ways to do that.
Jaden
But this is an invalid argument.
If you go to mcdonald's and they say well we can't tell you how many nuggets are in the container until after you buy it, and then you just accept it. Or they tell you how MANY nuggets are in them but don't tell you how big they are and they're half the size that is implied by the packaging.
The idea of a money added tourney is that there is ADDED money to the entry fees. If there is less than the entry fees, then it's not an added money tourney.
Do the tours need to make money? Absolutely. Just disclose it. If you bill a tourney as 25% of entry fee is tour and entry fees, or a $20 tour card is necessary to play entry fee is $100, then you say $1500 added money tourney.
So you get 50 people to show up. the payout should 5250. If it's not, then you are being dishonest and you should change the advertising to relate that. If only 3450 of that is being paid out, then a statement needs to be added addressing that.
To the people who have stated that if you sign up and they have stated the payouts, then you know what you are signing up for and shouldn't complain, I absolutely agree.
I have never seen a tourney that has stated the payouts ahead of time as soon as they start taking sign ups, so that is unrealistic to expect. You have to know how many people sign up before you can state that.
If you want to be honest then you have to come up with a method of disclosing what the payouts are going to be as soon as you start taking signups.
There are ways to do that.
Jaden
But its not
I dont know the details so I am going to use my own numbers. Lets say that the entry fee is $50 with a $30 dollar greens fee. The tournament entry is $50, not $80. So, if there are 20 players at $50 that is $1000 dollars in entry fees, not $1600. Now $1000 plus $1500 added =$2500. Who gives a shit where the added money comes from. If it comes from the greens fees, the room owner, or if the added money fairy brings it, it doesnt matter. The event is advertised as $50 dollar and $30 greens fees. I think people are confusing entry fees and greens fees. I dont see where anything they advertised was wrong.
I dont know the details so I am going to use my own numbers. Lets say that the entry fee is $50 with a $30 dollar greens fee. The tournament entry is $50, not $80. So, if there are 20 players at $50 that is $1000 dollars in entry fees, not $1600. Now $1000 plus $1500 added =$2500. Who gives a shit where the added money comes from. If it comes from the greens fees, the room owner, or if the added money fairy brings it, it doesnt matter. The event is advertised as $50 dollar and $30 greens fees. I think people are confusing entry fees and greens fees. I dont see where anything they advertised was wrong.
And for the record, I dont know Marge or Shannon and have never played in a GSBT event. I dont have a dog in this fight. I just think whats right is right.
I think too many people worry too much about other peoples business.
Yes, if things were way out of hand, and people were truly getting ripped off, then folks might have a reason to start asking for complete and full disclosure of every freaking detail. But if there isn't any hue and cry that there is any impropriety, then all this is picking nits, and nits picking.
Play or don't play. Stop whining. These folks put on tournaments on a regular basis, and people get paid. Rooms don't complain, and have good turnouts. Stop worrying about how much money these folks make, and have some fun playing pool.
Sheesh.
Or start your own damned tour and make all that money your own damned self. Cuz it's so damned easy, since folks keep believing they're making too much money.
Again, sheesh.
I bet the USPPA folks wouldn't mind Marge and Shannon running their tournaments.
Yes, if things were way out of hand, and people were truly getting ripped off, then folks might have a reason to start asking for complete and full disclosure of every freaking detail. But if there isn't any hue and cry that there is any impropriety, then all this is picking nits, and nits picking.
Play or don't play. Stop whining. These folks put on tournaments on a regular basis, and people get paid. Rooms don't complain, and have good turnouts. Stop worrying about how much money these folks make, and have some fun playing pool.
Sheesh.
Or start your own damned tour and make all that money your own damned self. Cuz it's so damned easy, since folks keep believing they're making too much money.
Again, sheesh.
I bet the USPPA folks wouldn't mind Marge and Shannon running their tournaments.
Not disputing this in anyway... but why cant she post this herself.
Again though .... it is 1000.00 first place .... really don't understand the questioning of payouts here at all. It is quite simple. If 28 players showed up ... guess what.... It is still 1000.00 to the winner.
HELP me understand the arguement against Shannon and marge making alot of money? Help me understand the arguement that it is our business to know what others make when the payout is quite clear?
Noone questions Hopkins on why he makes a huge score on the one tourny a year. Noone asks what his breakdown and final figures are at the Expo. You make around 5000.00 going through 5000 players there. At least there isn't 2 threads 200 post long every year on here about it. Why?
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As the promoter and tournament director of a growing tour in the upstate NY area I really think too many people make it much tougher than it needs to be. You have an entry fee... from that is deducted your greens fee for the use of the room that goes to the room owner. What they do with or who they give that to is only the room owners business. Next deducted from the entry fee is the tour fee, event fee or registration fee... This goes to the tour for expenses, director, etc. etc. So... we are at an entry fee - a greens fee - a tour fee = prize money per entry to the prize fund. So now the prize money x the # of entries = the prize fund... Then the added money is added to the prize fund for your total pay outs available.
Now, on top of the entry fee as extra mandatory expenses you could have a tour member ship (card).You could have bonus pots. You could have a year end or tour championship event contribution. You could have optional expenses such as side pots, 10 ball pots, break and run pots, 8 on the break pots, etc. You may have the optional calcutta expense. Other than the mandatory tour expenses the rest of these are all optional expenses.
Do I as a tour promoter and tournament director feel that these fees should all be made readily available to potential players and tour members? ABSOLUTELY...!!! Let them make the most informed decision that they can to play in your events on your tour.
Maybe, for those who do not prefer the way things are done now, it should be worded differently in advertisements. Maybe as promoters we should list our events as such... Added money + entry fees = Total Pay Outs. Mandatory Expenses for event... tour membership (if not current tour member) + entry fee + yearend contribution (if tour has one) + bonus pot (if tour has one) + tour fee, registration fee, or event fee (depends on how you want to word it) + greens fee = Total Mandatory Expenses. Optional expenses for event... side pots, 10 ball pots, calcuttas etc. etc.
While we are at let's cover the added money... If the added money is guaranteed? Put it in no matter how many players show for the event. If you want to protect yourself and the room owner break it down. X amout added to a full feild of X # of players. X amount added to feild of X # of players. Break it down and spell it out. Let the potential players know what the added $ is based on the # of players.
Simple example...
10 Ball Tournament
$5,000.00 added to 64 player full field
$3,000.00 added to 48 player field
$2,000.00 added to 32 player field
$1,000.00 added to 16 player field
$500.00 added to 8 player field
Mandatory Expenses
$20.00 tour membership (if not a current member)
+$50.00 entry fee
+$10.00 tour fee
+$10.00 greens fee
+$5.00 tour championship contribution
=$95.00 ($75.00 if current tour member) Mandatory Expenses
Entry Fees x # of Players + Added Money = Total Pay Outs
Now, on top of the entry fee as extra mandatory expenses you could have a tour member ship (card).You could have bonus pots. You could have a year end or tour championship event contribution. You could have optional expenses such as side pots, 10 ball pots, break and run pots, 8 on the break pots, etc. You may have the optional calcutta expense. Other than the mandatory tour expenses the rest of these are all optional expenses.
Do I as a tour promoter and tournament director feel that these fees should all be made readily available to potential players and tour members? ABSOLUTELY...!!! Let them make the most informed decision that they can to play in your events on your tour.
Maybe, for those who do not prefer the way things are done now, it should be worded differently in advertisements. Maybe as promoters we should list our events as such... Added money + entry fees = Total Pay Outs. Mandatory Expenses for event... tour membership (if not current tour member) + entry fee + yearend contribution (if tour has one) + bonus pot (if tour has one) + tour fee, registration fee, or event fee (depends on how you want to word it) + greens fee = Total Mandatory Expenses. Optional expenses for event... side pots, 10 ball pots, calcuttas etc. etc.
While we are at let's cover the added money... If the added money is guaranteed? Put it in no matter how many players show for the event. If you want to protect yourself and the room owner break it down. X amout added to a full feild of X # of players. X amount added to feild of X # of players. Break it down and spell it out. Let the potential players know what the added $ is based on the # of players.
Simple example...
10 Ball Tournament
$5,000.00 added to 64 player full field
$3,000.00 added to 48 player field
$2,000.00 added to 32 player field
$1,000.00 added to 16 player field
$500.00 added to 8 player field
Mandatory Expenses
$20.00 tour membership (if not a current member)
+$50.00 entry fee
+$10.00 tour fee
+$10.00 greens fee
+$5.00 tour championship contribution
=$95.00 ($75.00 if current tour member) Mandatory Expenses
Entry Fees x # of Players + Added Money = Total Pay Outs
The tournament owners have to get paided,dont you and the rest of us get paid when we go to work,so you are saying that they get paid to much,well if they are or not,to me they are worth every dime that they take out!with out SHANNON and MARGE there would be no tournament,i understand what you are saying,but i would say that they are still under paid in my opionon,that is a hell of a lot of work that they put out and they deserve every penny that they make!
The last time I checked Shannon Daulton is a professional player, who has to enter events in order to play and he may or may not have a sponsor to help him with that. None of my business
I dont mind supporting professional pool.
Regardless he has demostrated that he is willing to work for his and he an Marge are giving us something that is a value to us in a lot of ways. The least of which has something to do with having a chance at the cash.
We all get to assemble together, socialize, compete and create an atmosphere that is conducive to people wanting to play the game, get together with other players, talk about our shared interest and do some really good things.
People get to come together across states, unite in conversation here and establish links that enable them to make monetary sense together doing business with one another because all of this infrastructure takes time to nurture and when it takes so much time to keep something going someone has to be able to make a living off of it.
So who is going to volunteer to do this for peanuts?
Not me.
Is it just the money, ok well then arrange your own game or better yet how about just give out some weight? Then you will get all the action you can handle----everyone loves a lock. Just fool people into thinking they have one.
Im not big on gambling because I work too hard for my money and I know where all of it goes, but that doesnt mean I dont want to play.
I do know this Shannon and Marge had the foresight to realize that the amateur is the way to keep pool growing and existing on a lot of levels and their business model is proof of their success.
If Shannon said he wanted all the money but he would give me some lessons on moves, banks etc Id hand it to him and be happy about it.
Instead he is inviting us to come to together as friends and acquaintances across county lines, state lines and regional lines and compete with one another uniting us as a family of sorts where we get to socialize together and be something together and its been working. We get our lessons just from each other. Cheap lessons and recreation too.
The English language is rife with exactness and we can argue over points of policy and procedure until we are blue in the face but the facts remain.
Someone with their greed has drawn a line in the sand.
Which side of the line do you stand on?
I stand on the side that doesnt give a rats rear end if Shannon wants my whole entry as long as I have a good time and get to work on Monday morning in the process.
If I get a chance to beat someone and get my rep out there and enjoy my friends-----------priceless!!!!!
Anything less than this is hurting pool, if you dont agree with wanting to promote the sport stay home and leave it be for the rest of us that do.
If you disagree with the take then man up and go talk to them in person about it or dont play just dont mess it up for me.
This whole business just seem silly to me, maybe someone who really needs the money needs to spend more time working and a little less time hating.
Thanks to Shannon and Marge what you do is appreciated.
336Robin :thumbup:
Robin Kelly
They more than deserve every penny. I do understand the OP's point, but what he is failing to see is all of the tournaments held that drew less than 60. The two they held at Kylie's drew under 50 making a pretty small payday for two people running from Ohio to Georgia.
The reason I pointed that out is that they deserve a windfall here and there. If every tournament brought in around a hundred players I could more than understand the point, but they don't. Like Marge said if more tournaments happen to bring in entries like that the payouts would change.
You obviously didn't see the math that I had worked out.
I always did get in trouble for not showing my work in math class.
I deducted the greens fees when I did the math. The math I did and the point I was making is exactly what you stated above.
Using your example above, if the payouts don't add up to $2500, then it's dishonest without additional qualification.
If all of the above is true and the payouts are only $900, then there is a problem. Hell if the payouts are $2000, then there is a problem, because then it is not 1500 added, it is 1000 added and that's a misrepresentation. I don't care where the 500 went, to the room owner or the TD or whatever, if that's what happens, then it is dishonest.
Jaden
I always did get in trouble for not showing my work in math class.
I deducted the greens fees when I did the math. The math I did and the point I was making is exactly what you stated above.
Using your example above, if the payouts don't add up to $2500, then it's dishonest without additional qualification.
If all of the above is true and the payouts are only $900, then there is a problem. Hell if the payouts are $2000, then there is a problem, because then it is not 1500 added, it is 1000 added and that's a misrepresentation. I don't care where the 500 went, to the room owner or the TD or whatever, if that's what happens, then it is dishonest.
Jaden
It doesn't matter if someone is under paid....lol
Would you expect a business that doesn't get enough customers to say, well we were going to charge $50 for this item, I know we advertised it at $50, but we aren't selling enough of them to make enough money, we deserve more money, so we're going to charge you $75?
When you run a business you setup a model and if that model fails, then you revamp it, change your advertising strategy etc.. to fix it. You still should be ethical in your advertisement though.
If you don't disclose what monies are being taken out of the entry fees, then you are being dishonest, I don't give a rats ass what a business man deserves to make, if he can't do it honestly, then he won't get my business.
Again, I want to be clear that I am not accusing anyone of doing anything, just stating MO in general. If that's what happened in this case, then I have no qualms about stating that it's dishonest. If it didn't, that's fine too.
The understanding for a money added tourney would be stated green fees deducted and then money added. If more money is being taken out, it should be disclosed ahead of time, if it's not, all the crap about the tourney won't be here etc... is moot. The players will still come, just be honest about what's coming out and what the payout will be.
And on that last note, the players may still come even if you take it out and don't disclose, but you don't deserve to be pissed if someone calls you on it.
Jaden
Would you expect a business that doesn't get enough customers to say, well we were going to charge $50 for this item, I know we advertised it at $50, but we aren't selling enough of them to make enough money, we deserve more money, so we're going to charge you $75?
When you run a business you setup a model and if that model fails, then you revamp it, change your advertising strategy etc.. to fix it. You still should be ethical in your advertisement though.
If you don't disclose what monies are being taken out of the entry fees, then you are being dishonest, I don't give a rats ass what a business man deserves to make, if he can't do it honestly, then he won't get my business.
Again, I want to be clear that I am not accusing anyone of doing anything, just stating MO in general. If that's what happened in this case, then I have no qualms about stating that it's dishonest. If it didn't, that's fine too.
The understanding for a money added tourney would be stated green fees deducted and then money added. If more money is being taken out, it should be disclosed ahead of time, if it's not, all the crap about the tourney won't be here etc... is moot. The players will still come, just be honest about what's coming out and what the payout will be.
And on that last note, the players may still come even if you take it out and don't disclose, but you don't deserve to be pissed if someone calls you on it.
Jaden
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Mr. Lloyd,
I do like your example and I do agree with you on people making it too hard. I dont know what the flyers look like that are promoting the GSBT tournaments, but looking at their website and looking at the entry fees, I can understand how someone could get upset about the prize funds. At no point does it show any money taken out from the entry fee for tour fees, it only shows $10 added to the entry fee for green fees. So if I was to enter that tournament I would assume my entire entry fee would go into a prize fund.
Now why do I assume that! My assumption is that they were making the money needed to do this tour off of sponsors and room owners paying a specific amount which would not require the money taken from the entry fees.
Dont get me wrong, I do agree with the GSBT making money. It is a business and they are selling each person a product in which is a pool tournament. Most pool players are not used to having to pay an "admission fee" so its a learning curve. Now that just means pool players will have to do some research prior to entering a tournament to make sure it is what they want. It also means, that tournament directors will have to supply a well run product or the product will fail quickly and by the looks of things the GSBT is doing a hell of a job because they just broke 100 again.
You talked about simplifying, I would suggest simplifying it even more and just list the gaurentee pay outs for number of paid entrys and not just a gaurenteed payout to first. Now I am talking about a legitimate Tour, not just a monthly tournament because my perspective of a Tour is one that already has a schedule of venues.
Your example of money added and the breakdown of the entry fee is great, but what does that matter if you dont give a breakdown of payout? There is no standard in the pool world on percentage of field payout or what percentage of prize fund each place should receive.
An example of specific payouts on a flyer would be like this.
1-32 players
1st $1,000
2nd $400
3rd $200
4th $100
5/6th $75
33-63 players
1st $1,000
2nd $400
3rd $200
4th $100
5/6th $75
7/8th $60
9-12th $45
13-16th $20
64-80 players
1st $1,000
2nd $600
3rd $400
4th $200
5/6th $100
7/8th $80
9-12th $45
13-16th $20
80-100 players
1st $1,200
2nd $750
3rd $450
4th $250
5/6th $150
78th $100
9-12th $60
13-16th $45
Jaden at almost every tourney I go to, this same thing pops up. Tourney will be say $40 entry + $15 green fees. Say a 100 players come. It's supposed to be $1000 added. Well when the pot is $5000 instead of $6500 everytime someone brings up the math aint right. I got no idea how to solve that problem. I think the real solution involves smaller fees relative to the entry fee. When the greens fees are 30% of the entry fee it just looks bad.
I hate to say it, but tourneys with Quarters or a way to pay per game or match are the real solution. Get rid of these fees and just have straight entrys with added money. You want the fees, collect them seperately. That's how I feel cause it's never a warm and fuzzy when 30% of them money vanishes into vapor space. Paying quarters or per game somehow doesn't feel bad cause you are playing out what you pay for and nothing more.
Yeah...
Personally, I've never really cared. If I want to play in an event, I play in it. I know what my entry fee is and I know how well I can do if I play my game. Whatever the payouts have been, they've been.
That doesn't change whether something has been dishonest or not though. If I paid attention to the payouts at some of the tourneys I"ve played in, I may have found discrepency as well, but I typically only care about playing. I may now have to rethink that.
Jaden
Personally, I've never really cared. If I want to play in an event, I play in it. I know what my entry fee is and I know how well I can do if I play my game. Whatever the payouts have been, they've been.
That doesn't change whether something has been dishonest or not though. If I paid attention to the payouts at some of the tourneys I"ve played in, I may have found discrepency as well, but I typically only care about playing. I may now have to rethink that.
Jaden
TruthWillCome
Registered
Look, still most are not getting the point. When the tour takes $27 out of every $45 entry fee, it's highway robbery. It had nothing to do with the 100 players. This same thing goes on at every GSBT event. They take out way too much money from the players share period. It doesn't matter if there is 100 players or 20, it's too much. The only thing that having the 100 players did is that it made it easier to see just how much came out! Get part of your pay from the room owner.
Either you do it different or quit complaining. If you are not part of the solution you propose, you are part of your problem.
You still haven't stated what you think is appropriate for a TD to be paid...