Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

[CrownCityCorey]

Seeding and Points

Everyone seems off the original point of the thread.

Beats me if they are not going to awards classification points (US), for TS. Honestly, I was surprised they ever did. I am sure it was simply due to a shortcoming of events. Without TS's, there would be only be five point earning events in 2010 and two of them as first time events (Reno Invite and US 10-Ball).

I don't think TS should be a points event. The $ is too low, and the no seeding factor - which is critical to develop a fan base. There must be consistency in all the points earning events.

TS is a fine event for what it is (locals only).

Funny thing though, even without seeding Johnny wins it all the time anyway - LOL!

 

[the77club]

quote..nathandumoulin....."In my life I have always been the kind of person who does everything with relative ease. Art, math, English, sports, etc. I have spent very little time at any of these, and yet excel at all. I've been exempt from college and university courses in subjects that I knew nothing about, simply because I possessed natural talent. I am no mastermind, but natural talent has allowed me to coast through life with very little effort or dedication.
Sure, if someone studied or practiced vigorously, than they could certainly score better, perform better, or outmatch me. However if I were to invest that same amount of time and effort, I have no doubt that I would easily surpass them."

wow. this should get interesting....LOL

 

[jay helfert]

Everyone seems off the original point of the thread.

Beats me if they are not going to awards classification points (US), for TS. Honestly, I was surprised they ever did. I am sure it was simply due to a shortcoming of events. Without TS's, there would be only be five point earning events in 2010 and two of them as first time events (Reno Invite and US 10-Ball).

I don't think TS should be a points event. The $ is too low, and the no seeding factor - which is critical to develop a fan base. There must be consistency in all the points earning events.

TS is a fine event for what it is (locals only).

Funny thing though, even without seeding Johnny wins it all the time anyway - LOL!

Take a look at the final four (or eight) players, WITHOUT SEEDING! The cream always rises to the top! The other Reno (Sands) was a ranking event for years with the same money added as Turning Stone. Mike just pays a little deeper. Any tournament with a field like this should be a ranking event imo. The only top player not there was Corey Harper, the best in the West! :smile:
Shhh, don't let Ernesto or Oscar hear me.

Let me add one thing to the equation about money in the sport of pool. EVERY player knows going in how difficult it is to make money playing pool. So why do they play? Maybe it's because they fell in love with the game and the competition. There were 128 players at Turning Stone last week and only a handful actually came out ahead. For many of the others if they made some money, enough to pay part of their expenses, they were happy. As Chris said earlier, out of those 128 players, realistically only maybe 10-12 had a chance to win and maybe 15-20 others a chance to finish high. That leaves about 100 players playing just to get in the money. Why do all these fools do that? Once again I say it's for love of the sport and the thrill of the competition. And also maybe to see how they stack up against top players.

Pool is a low paying professional sport. We all know that. Only a handful of elite players make a decent living at it. So why do all the other players compete? I know I keep asking the same question. There is a reason. I say they compete because they love the game, and are willing to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to be a part of it. Many guys have regular jobs, and use a portion of that income to pay their way to various tournaments. My hat is off to all these guys. Without them there is no pro "tour" or slate of tournaments for the top pros to win and make money at. HELLO!!! Are you starting to get the picture. I sure hope so.

I went to the U.S. Bar Table tournament earlier this year with Tony Banks. We had no illusions about winning, we knew there would be many top players there. It was a money loser for us from the get go and we knew it. But we both wanted to play. It cost us each about $250-300 to drive up there, share a room and play in one event. Tony won $100 and I won $150. We both left happy! We played, we had fun with our friends, and we actually got a few bucks back. It was a pool players vacation, as it is for so many other players. And that's the name of that tune.

 

[grindz]

Take all the other "pros" out, and I'm sure Hatch would be happy to snap it off w/out them. He seems to be a regular at those events.

I just have to side step and say "Well done" to the promoter, the sponsors,
and the streamers for all the enjoyable pool this brought to the pool scene.
I loved watching the streams (thx also to AZB!).

td

 

[joelpope]

quote..nathandumoulin....."In my life I have always been the kind of person who does everything with relative ease. Art, math, English, sports, etc. I have spent very little time at any of these, and yet excel at all. I've been exempt from college and university courses in subjects that I knew nothing about, simply because I possessed natural talent. I am no mastermind, but natural talent has allowed me to coast through life with very little effort or dedication.
Sure, if someone studied or practiced vigorously, than they could certainly score better, perform better, or outmatch me. However if I were to invest that same amount of time and effort, I have no doubt that I would easily surpass them."

wow. this should get interesting....LOL

hard to top that...

 

[nathandumoulin]

wow. this should get interesting....LOL

I fail to see any problem with me saying that. I'm not boasting, I'm simply making a claim for the sake of argument. I even clearly stated that I am no mastermind, and that anyone with greater talent will perform better than I do.

Anyway, clearly there is no right or wrong to this debate. I was merely giving my 2 cents.

 

[MOJOE]

What book is that? I don't remember covering that in Pool Wars.

Actually the book I am referring to Jay is, Talent is Overrated.. It's excellent and clears up a lot of myths.. As I might call them.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I fail to see any problem with me saying that.

There is no problem with you saying that.
I actually can totally relate to your statement. And having said that, people who can't relate are going to think you are tooting your own horn, which is to be expected.

Probably the only issue you ever encountered by having natural talents, was the occasional guy who was angry that you didn't work hard to obtain your skill, who wishes they had said talent, themselves. Envy and jealousy are two words that come to mind.

That has been my experience anyway.

And it's not like i myself am saying that i am better then everyone else because that's just so not the case, but when i look back on life, it's hard for me not to think that i somehow had an intangible advantage over other people at certain things that just came naturally. Almost like it was an instinct that you never bothered to foster...instead, it was just THERE.

Problems start when people can't relate, or worse yet, don't have the capacity to understand, where it causes tension.
Unfortunately, when this conversation starts, undoubtedly, that is where it is headed.

 

[Georgia Boy]

Take a look at the final four (or eight) players, WITHOUT SEEDING! The cream always rises to the top! The other Reno (Sands) was a ranking event for years with the same money added as Turning Stone. Mike just pays a little deeper. Any tournament with a field like this should be a ranking event imo. The only top player not there was Corey Harper, the best in the West! :smile:
Shhh, don't let Ernesto or Oscar hear me.

Let me add one thing to the equation about money in the sport of pool. EVERY player knows going in how difficult it is to make money playing pool. So why do they play? Maybe it's because they fell in love with the game and the competition. There were 128 players at Turning Stone last week and only a handful actually came out ahead. For many of the others if they made some money, enough to pay part of their expenses, they were happy. As Chris said earlier, out of those 128 players, realistically only maybe 10-12 had a chance to win and maybe 15-20 others a chance to finish high. That leaves about 100 players playing just to get in the money. Why do all these fools do that? Once again I say it's for love of the sport and the thrill of the competition. And also maybe to see how they stack up against top players.

Pool is a low paying professional sport. We all know that. Only a handful of elite players make a decent living at it. So why do all the other players compete? I know I keep asking the same question. There is a reason. I say they compete because they love the game, and are willing to make whatever sacrifices are necessary in their life to be a part of it. Many guys have regular jobs, and use part of that income to pay their way to various tournaments. My hat is off to all these guys. Without them there is no pro "tour" or slate of tournaments for the top pros to win and make money at. HELLO!!! Are you starting to get the picture. I sure hope so.

I went to the U.S. Bar Table tournament earlier this year with Tony Banks. We had no illusions about winning, we knew there would be many top players there. It was a money loser for us from the get go and we knew it. But we both wanted to play. It cost us each about $250-300 to drive up there, share a room and play in one event. Tony won $100 and I won $150. We both left happy! We played, we had fun with our friends and we actually got a few bucks back. It was a pool players vacation as it is for so many players. And that's the name of that tune.

Jay
There's a lot of sense in what you say, especially regarding the people who would seem to be 'making up the numbers' especially in these fields of 128 etc and IMO the top pro's know it too. I have never heard a bad word spoken by anybody about these people. As you quite rightly say without them and if only the people who could realistically win it entered, there would be no tournament. These people do it for many reasons, love of the game, competition, see how they stack up, the chance to upset one of the big names or even just to have a chance to play one of the big names. If you get to play to 9 against SVB, Johnny, Mika or Rodney for $120, that's quite possibly a bargain.

Never thought of it like that before, maybe I'll enter next time and get to play Johnny in the first round................yeah in my dreams. Just don't tell the Wife I dream of 'Playing with Johnny' that could be awkward

 

[CrownCityCorey]

The only top player not there was Corey Harper, the best in the West! :smile:
Shhh, don't let Ernesto or Oscar hear me.

No worries, back-handed compliments are taken in stride.

Ernesto and Oscar play in everything (bless their hearts)! They also make a ton of sacrifices on the road that most of the rest (here in the West), just won't make (including yourself). That's their journey and they have all my respect - always have.

Some Westies that did not make the trip to TS: Jose Parica, Louis Ulrich (former finalist at TS), Dan Wallace, Ismael "Morro" Paez, Max Eberle, Brian Parks, and Santos Sambajon. Most everyone of them is financially capable to make the trip and more than technically capable to do well and perhaps win the event. You will however, see most all of them at the US Open...why? Tremendously better ROI at the US Open.

Pool is not a "vacation" for any of the above listed players (including myself). They are all serious and hardened competitors. Bora Bora is for vacations - not any of the places big pool events are held. Have you ever heard of a busman's holiday? That's a big pool tournament.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Has the PA announced these same demands to Behrman for the upcoming US Open, an event that has had delays in players getting paid?

I haven't heard anything.

Perhaps Rodney's comments were not made as an official statement of the PA, but since he was one of the guys sitting right there when the PA had their initial "press conference" (such as it was), then he should realize anything he says of this nature will reflect on the organization.

 

[HeLLFiSH]

Has the PA announced these same demands to Behrman for the upcoming US Open, an event that has had delays in players getting paid?

I haven't heard anything.

In a letter sent by Barry Behrman [Link]:

Since 2007 it has taken me much longer than proper to pay off my players and especially my Champions. I’ve had to reconfigure my entire business structure beginning this year and I know that these changes will be well received by the billiard fraternity. I’ve confided my plans to Johnny Archer and his new crew of players that form the Association for Billiard Professionals (ABP) ...

The Thursday before the U.S. Open, October 14th, $75,000.00 will be in an account for the players only and $75,000.00 in cash will be on display with an armed guard on the arena floor the final day of the event at 1:00pm. That is the total due to the final 4 players. The other $30,000.00 will have already been paid to the eliminated players towards the end of the event, promptly on time. All $180,000.00 will be paid in CASH.

 

[Nostroke]

Has the PA announced these same demands to Behrman for the upcoming US Open, an event that has had delays in players getting paid?

I haven't heard anything.

Perhaps Rodney's comments were not made as an official statement of the PA, but since he was one of the guys sitting right there when the PA had their initial "press conference" (such as it was), then he should realize anything he says of this nature will reflect on the organization.

Barry announced that the money would be up and available in an account for viewing by the players before the event and at some point in the event, the money for the last 4? would be in a glass case with a security guard or two available for all to see. Im pretty sure this was in response to new Player Org.

As far as seeding, I know The Open has done that before. Not sure about this year.

 

[jay helfert]

No worries, back-handed compliments are taken in stride.

Ernesto and Oscar play in everything (bless their hearts)! They also make a ton of sacrifices on the road that most of the rest (here in the West), just won't make (including yourself). That's their journey and they have all my respect - always have.

Some Westies that did not make the trip to TS: Jose Parica, Louis Ulrich (former finalist at TS), Dan Wallace, Ismael "Morro" Paez, Max Eberle, Brian Parks, and Santos Sambajon. Most everyone of them is financially capable to make the trip and more than technically capable to do well and perhaps win the event. You will however, see most all of them at the US Open...why? Tremendously better ROI at the US Open.

Pool is not a "vacation" for any of the above listed players (including myself). They are all serious and hardened competitors. Bora Bora is for vacations - not any of the places big pool events are held. Have you ever heard of a busman's holiday? That's a big pool tournament.

My only "sacrifice" is to fly 7000 miles (18 hour trip) at my own expense and pay for my own hotel just for the opportunity to work for enough money to pay half my expenses. And work 12-14 hour days! But you wouldn't consider that a sacrifice would you?

You wouldn't do it and you're half my age. Some people do what they do because they want to give back to the sport that has been good to them. And some people spend most of their time complaining. Sound familiar?

P.S. I also help run the Swanee tournament which benefits players like you, for gratis. I've done this for over 12 years out of respect for Jay Swanson. I am rarely thanked (after working two 16 hour days), and then by only a few players. Swanee never complained about anything. He just showed up and played his heart out. There aren't many like him around today, the Dominguez' being two.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Why do I feel that being part of the non-cashing player population at a tournament, I just got insulted?

If we "vacationers' started to spend time elswhere, then only the top 25 or so NON-Vacationer pool players will just play with themselves.

Corey, thanks for clearing up all that PRO versus $$$ issues. It is all clear to me now. If I read your post correctly, if you are a PRO, you have to have a chance of coming close to your ROI to make a commitment. Otherwise, you just stay at home.

I promise not to vacation in any tournament you play in the future.

No worries, back-handed compliments are taken in stride.

Ernesto and Oscar play in everything (bless their hearts)! They also make a ton of sacrifices on the road that most of the rest (here in the West), just won't make (including yourself). That's their journey and they have all my respect - always have.

Some Westies that did not make the trip to TS: Jose Parica, Louis Ulrich (former finalist at TS), Dan Wallace, Ismael "Morro" Paez, Max Eberle, Brian Parks, and Santos Sambajon. Most everyone of them is financially capable to make the trip and more than technically capable to do well and perhaps win the event. You will however, see most all of them at the US Open...why? Tremendously better ROI at the US Open.

Pool is not a "vacation" for any of the above listed players (including myself). They are all serious and hardened competitors. Bora Bora is for vacations - not any of the places big pool events are held. Have you ever heard of a busman's holiday? That's a big pool tournament.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Why do I feel that being part of the non-cashing player population at a tournament, I just got insulted?

If we "vacationers' started to spend time elswhere, then only the top 25 or so NON-Vacationer pool players will just play with themselves.

Corey, thanks for clearing up all that PRO versus $$$ issues. It is all clear to me now. If I read your post correctly, if you are a PRO, you have to have a chance of coming close to your ROI to make a commitment. Otherwise, you just stay at home.

I promise not to vacation in any tournament you play in the future.

Certainly no insult intended Tom. For this I apologize. I can see how the following statement may be found to be insulting.

Bora Bora is for vacations - not any of the places big pool events are held.

Of course without the field that hopes for a chance to play a top player at any event and the fans in attendance, there would be no event. For these people, I am always thankful. Certainly it seems that my "thank you's" (which I am never short of) go unnoticed. What can I do, but say thank you to all that sacrifice to give me and others opportunity - whether financial or to live out ones dreams.

What I share with you all is a perspective shared by many. Those that believe that their talent, hard work, and dedication (one that inspires others to achieve and go after their own dreams) often times goes without consideration. No money is one thing, no consideration is another. In our society consideration comes in one primary form (money). Just take a looks at all other sports where those athletes inspire others to achieve...

Following a nice US Open 10-Ball event finish, I thought to follow all seven of the points earning events this year - hoping for a year end standing in the top ten in the US (the best I've done is 12th). Boy, what a feather in my cap that would be (I thought). But then, critical thinking got the better part of me - what would a top-ten for 2010 really do for me other than ego? Some of my best of friends are out there hammering away unrewarded (broke) and sleeping in their cars - essentially living as vagabonds. I am speaking of people in the top ranks. What's worse is how they feel about themselves and the day to day struggles just to feel like a positive/beneficial member to society. No matter the ranking, it just is not worth the sacrifice.

Personally, I love competing! The money is a bonus (really), but as a man that wants more than the last two sentences above, I simply have to pick and choose.

I think those of you that see me as an ingrate, simply don't know nor understand me.

Although, I certainly have not achieved what some of these others have, I want to leave you with this list of great competitive players that you do not see (or very, very rarely) anymore due to what I posted above - these were all once people that hit every major tournament and for whom their blood flowed table cloth green:

Roger Griffis, CJ Wiley, Reed Pierce, Jimmy Wetch, George Michaels, Chris McDonald, Jimmy Mendoza, Kim Davenport, David Howard, Scott Kitto, Greg Fix, Bobby Hunter, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe, Keith McCready, George Breedlove, Sal Butera, Shannon Daulton, Troy Frank, Mike Gulyassy, Allen Hopkins, Jeremy Jones, Sammy Jones, Mike Massey, Alex Pagulayan, Paul Potier, Ismael Paez, Luc Salvas, Danny Harriman, Jimmy Reid, Louis Ulrich, Joe Salazar, Danny Medina, and hundreds more...

Edit: swapped "consideration" for appreciation - more accurate.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't mind being called a "vacationer". Sure sounds nicer than "dead money".

 

[joelpope]

Actually the book I am referring to Jay is, Talent is Overrated.. It's excellent and clears up a lot of myths.. As I might call them.

2 good books...

"Talent is Overrated" by Geoff Colvin

and

"The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born, It's Grown. Here's How" by Daniel Coyle


Each has a similar message based on fact as opposed to some of the "I just know it's so because I know" opinions being expressed.

 

[oldzilla]

I am reading "The Hustler and the Champ" now. It has brought to my attention how Brunswick was the almighty ruler of the major tournaments from the late 1800's through about 1970. Great read !

There were two ways to go then. Being a respectable player might just get you invited to events if you showed talent. The other was being the hustler and only being able to play gambling matches in the small rooms.

 

[dardusm]

Certainly no insult intended Tom. For this I apologize. I can see how the following statement may be found to be insulting.

Of course without the field that hopes for a chance to play a top player at any event and the fans in attendance, there would be no event. For these people, I am always thankful. Certainly it seems that my "thank you's" (which I am never short of) go unnoticed. What can I do, but say thank you to all that sacrifice to give me and others opportunity - whether financial or to live out ones dreams.

What I share with you all is a perspective shared by many. Those that believe that their talent, hard work, and dedication (one that inspires others to achieve and go after their own dreams) often times goes without consideration. No money is one thing, no consideration is another. In our society consideration comes in one primary form (money). Just take a looks at all other sports where those athletes inspire others to achieve...

Following a nice US Open 10-Ball event finish, I thought to follow all seven of the points earning events this year - hoping for a year end standing in the top ten in the US (the best I've done is 12th). Boy, what a feather in my cap that would be (I thought). But then, critical thinking got the better part of me - what would a top-ten for 2010 really do for me other than ego? Some of my best of friends are out there hammering away unrewarded (broke) and sleeping in their cars - essentially living as vagabonds. I am speaking of people in the top ranks. What's worse is how they feel about themselves and the day to day struggles just to feel like a positive/beneficial member to society. No matter the ranking, it just is not worth the sacrifice.

Personally, I love competing! The money is a bonus (really), but as a man that wants more than the last two sentences above, I simply have to pick and choose.

I think those of you that see me as an ingrate, simply don't know nor understand me.

Although, I certainly have not achieved what some of these others have, I want to leave you with this list of great competitive players that you do not see (or very, very rarely) anymore due to what I posted above - these were all once people that hit every major tournament and for whom their blood flowed table cloth green:

Roger Griffis, CJ Wiley, Reed Pierce, Jimmy Wetch, George Michaels, Chris McDonald, Jimmy Mendoza, Kim Davenport, David Howard, Scott Kitto, Greg Fix, Bobby Hunter, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe, Keith McCready, George Breedlove, Sal Butera, Shannon Daulton, Troy Frank, Mike Gulyassy, Allen Hopkins, Jeremy Jones, Sammy Jones, Mike Massey, Alex Pagulayan, Paul Potier, Ismael Paez, Luc Salvas, Danny Harriman, Jimmy Reid, Louis Ulrich, Joe Salazar, Danny Medina, and hundreds more...

Edit: swapped "consideration" for appreciation - more accurate.

Being a pro player is just like being in business for yourself. You need to look at the ROI of a tournament as well as other factors before making a decision to play. It is smart business to operate in this matter.

I do have a pet peeve about pro players complaining about the lack of money in the game. There hasn't been real money in the game (not counting IPT) for years. In the early 1900's, the top pro's made some bank i.e. Greenleaf, Hoppe, etc. My point is that it's common knowledge that there is no real money in the game except for the top few. So if I want to be a pro player, I know going in that it's tough to make a living on playing alone. Like any good business though, maybe there are other ways to make income such as lessons, exhibitions, house pro, sponsorship, etc. Here is an idea. If I'm a pro, call ahead to local rooms in the area that I'm getting ready to play a tournament and set up a challenge match, clinic, exhibition. Sell autographed cueballs, etc. Set up times for lessons. There are lots of ways to make income in this game. It just takes some work and outside the box thinking.

Ok, I'm done preaching :smile: