Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

Johnnyt said:
Who are the five? Johnnyt
Click to expand...

That was kind of the question I had. They started out with how ever many players were on board when the first announced this thing in May and I haven't heard a thing about any new members. I also haven't heard anything about plans to hold elections. They don't even have a website yet, or do they?
 
Player Association

There are more - Thorsten Hohmann and Mika Immonen are involved.
I have gone on record as a supporter of a Players Organisation but this incarnation I feel is doomed to failure.

The game is not in good shape despite the fact that the WPA calendar looks pretty robust. Under the surface there are players who are still owed substantial sums and the tournaments are being undersold with no provisional to produce, present and publicise them.

There prospect is one of collision courses with other promoters and that could wipe out the professional game at a stroke.

If a PA is to succeed the players have to take a Quantum Leap. Get themselves a non playing Commissioner and let him acquire the expertise to produce top class televised events that enhance the image of the game. Get some PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONALISM into a dying spectator sport.
 
pro9dg said:
There are more - Thorsten Hohmann and Mika Immonen are involved.
I have gone on record as a supporter of a Players Organisation but this incarnation I feel is doomed to failure.

The game is not in good shape despite the fact that the WPA calendar looks pretty robust. Under the surface there are players who are still owed substantial sums and the tournaments are being undersold with no provisional to produce, present and publicise them.

There prospect is one of collision courses with other promoters and that could wipe out the professional game at a stroke.

If a PA is to succeed the players have to take a Quantum Leap. Get themselves a non playing Commissioner and let him acquire the expertise to produce top class televised events that enhance the image of the game. Get some PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONALISM into a dying spectator sport.
Click to expand...

We should probably move this colloquy to the Star Chamber, pro9dg, but I can't help but be reminded of the IPT. They did hire a professional agency in California for public affairs, had a committed tournament director with staff, invested MILLIONS of dollars at the onset, created strict rules to be followed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And what happened?

Moses smell the roses! The IPT sank like a lead cannon ball in an abyss of skepticism as well as non-interest. It was doomed before it begin.

I would support a legitimate players organization wholeheartedly, if and only if I felt the captain of the ship did not have any biases and the organization as a whole was transparent, looking after the interests of its members.

There's nobody in the world who is more passionate about pool than Johnny Archer, but Johnny Archer is also passionate about Johnny Archer; thus, the reason for this organization's genesis. He needs a public affairs outreach person now more than ever to squash speculation.

With that said, I do believe his heart is in the right place. :)
 
OK, I'll say it.

Can of worms...

This is not to say that certain pool players aren't good people.

But when it comes to critical thinking skills...

How many of the top male players have an education? Let alone, a business education? (once again, this is not to rip on the players, but it a statement to get to some core issues)

I can name several that dropped out of high school.

For the longest time, i remember hearing how players had issues with Charlie Williams because C.W. thought that he was better then everyone else, because he had an education and they didn't.

Now if anyone knows my history of posting, I am not a C.W. fan at all and in my opinion, C.W. is an egomaniac. (i should know, i am an egomaniac as well)

But despite all that, C.W. IS a successful business person.
He earns his nut.

Despite C.W. going about everything wrong initially (I blame the egomania), he has managed to survive.
I don't attribute that to his being an insider in the industry, and i don't attribute that to his strength as a player, and i don't attribute that to luck.
As far as i am concerned, it is in part due to the fact that he sacrificed 4 or 5 years of his life in college, learned what delayed gratification is, and set his business plan in motion and is now able to reap the rewards from that.
As much as i would LOVE to rip on C.W., i can't touch him on that.

How exactly are players who lack an education, regardless of why, supposed to understand the nature of business in a delayed gratification type of way (long term future), when they are instant gratification, cash money type of people? Some not even knowing where or when their next paycheck will come from.
Most people that i know who went to college, have a very good grasp on long term vision, and those that dropped out of high school, or never went to college, do not have that same mentality.
At least, that is my experience.

Sure you can learn from the industry.
Sure you can learn from people before you that have either had success or failure.
But is that really enough? Enough to get a grasp on long term vision?

I just wonder, cause i keep seeing the players make the same exact mistakes, over and over again, so obviously, they aren't learning from everyone else's mistakes before them, so what is the reason for it then?

And AGAIN, this is not to say that anyone who lacks an education is a bad person, because that is not the case at all.

But, to many outsiders, many people posting in this thread, it is glaringly obvious, that certain pool players despite their intentions, just absolutely positively DO NOT GET IT.
It all seems like instant gratification stuff, and not long term thinking.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that they want money in escrow from a guy who has no blemishes on his record for payment.
As far as i am concerned, if you are going to go after someone who has a perfect record, then there is something else that you want.

MAYBE, if they pressure Zuglan into putting the money up, then they figure that they can hit him up with more and more demands, such as SEEDING.
Otherwise, since he always pays, why bother?

The only way a players organization is going to work, is if you bring in someone from the outside working WITH the players, because poolplayers by themselves have historically proven that they are their own worst enemy.

And again, this is not an attempt to belittle the men pros, i just feel that what i have said is at the CORE of a lot of the issues with mens pool, when it comes to them banding together for the greater good, and nobody is ever willing to say it.

Let me go put on my flame proof suit.
Exit, stage left.
 
Well SUPERSTAR, for sure the PGA tour is run by professional businessmen and I do believe so are the players associations for Major League Baseball, the NBA, the NHL and the NFL. These groups seem to have been pretty successful. But of course, these organizations have the money to pay top business talent to come to work. It's tough to get top talent without money.

It's a difficult situation for the PA, there's no money and no unity. And there is no ONE group right now, like a major tour or league, to negotiate with that will take care of all the issues for every event in one sweep. Every tournament is an island unto itself.
 
If the points ranking is controlled by the players organization and actually has value there is no need to boycott the tournaments. They should limit themselves to withholding points and allow the players to play that want to play, imo.

The trouble is that the value of the points standings is undermined by the world tournaments not posting their money, and not having enough total money to pay big money for early exits that would cover the large travel expenses required. If the world tournaments were more lucrative and actually posted their money up front, the player's orgaization's points standings would have a lot more value to players.

Johnny is doing a lot of things right. There is no membership fee, he talks of representing the top 100 or more players, and he knows this is a long term project. But players organizations that attempt to regulate player behavior bring too much infighting. Let tournament directors run the tournaments and the organization stick to sanctioning them or not is my suggestion.

But one thing everyone should keep in mind that has been around pool for awhile - never bet against Johnny Archer.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Can of worms...

This is not to say that certain pool players aren't good people.

But when it comes to critical thinking skills...

How many of the top male players have an education? Let alone, a business education? (once again, this is not to rip on the players, but it a statement to get to some core issues)

I can name several that dropped out of high school.

For the longest time, i remember hearing how players had issues with Charlie Williams because C.W. thought that he was better then everyone else, because he had an education and they didn't.

Now if anyone knows my history of posting, I am not a C.W. fan at all and in my opinion, C.W. is an egomaniac. (i should know, i am an egomaniac as well)

But despite all that, C.W. IS a successful business person.
He earns his nut.

Despite C.W. going about everything wrong initially (I blame the egomania), he has managed to survive.
I don't attribute that to his being an insider in the industry, and i don't attribute that to his strength as a player, and i don't attribute that to luck.
As far as i am concerned, it is in part due to the fact that he sacrificed 4 or 5 years of his life in college, learned what delayed gratification is, and set his business plan in motion and is now able to reap the rewards from that.
As much as i would LOVE to rip on C.W., i can't touch him on that.

How exactly are players who lack an education, regardless of why, supposed to understand the nature of business in a delayed gratification type of way (long term future), when they are instant gratification, cash money type of people? Some not even knowing where or when their next paycheck will come from.
Most people that i know who went to college, have a very good grasp on long term vision, and those that dropped out of high school, or never went to college, do not have that same mentality.
At least, that is my experience.

Sure you can learn from the industry.
Sure you can learn from people before you that have either had success or failure.
But is that really enough? Enough to get a grasp on long term vision?

I just wonder, cause i keep seeing the players make the same exact mistakes, over and over again, so obviously, they aren't learning from everyone else's mistakes before them, so what is the reason for it then?

And AGAIN, this is not to say that anyone who lacks an education is a bad person, because that is not the case at all.

But, to many outsiders, many people posting in this thread, it is glaringly obvious, that certain pool players despite their intentions, just absolutely positively DO NOT GET IT.
It all seems like instant gratification stuff, and not long term thinking.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that they want money in escrow from a guy who has no blemishes on his record for payment.
As far as i am concerned, if you are going to go after someone who has a perfect record, then there is something else that you want.

MAYBE, if they pressure Zuglan into putting the money up, then they figure that they can hit him up with more and more demands, such as SEEDING.
Otherwise, since he always pays, why bother?

The only way a players organization is going to work, is if you bring in someone from the outside working WITH the players, because poolplayers by themselves have historically proven that they are their own worst enemy.

And again, this is not an attempt to belittle the men pros, i just feel that what i have said is at the CORE of a lot of the issues with mens pool, when it comes to them banding together for the greater good, and nobody is ever willing to say it.

Let me go put on my flame proof suit.
Exit, stage left.
Click to expand...

I know you are just stirring the pot and I agree with some of your points but there is a lot you don't know. No I am not going to tell you what it is.
 
David_Smith said:
But one thing everyone should keep in mind that has been around pool for awhile - never bet against Johnny Archer.
Click to expand...

Just to play devils advocate....

I have been around pool for a minute and last I looked betting on a player organization stepping on its crank is a 100% sure bet.

Johnny can't break that trend by himself. No one can. It will take a paradigm shift in how the players view the issue or what has always happened will happen again.
 
Justin...Great post! Except for trying to go "too big" too soon, Trudeaux had the right idea, about making the players tow the line. Nice attire, good attitudes, and SHOW UP in the stands to support the events and the spectators...all were ideas that merit more exposure. If he had just taken a million dollars each year, for 3 years; split it 10 ways, and added $100K to 10 events each year, pool would have hit the "big time" by now, imo. Everyone would have been paid...on time...and pool could well have been all over t.v.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JCIN said:
With very very few exceptions every pro player I know male or female are nice people and very friendly to fans. An event like what you mention is somewhat different than what I was thinking of though. An event in a pool room is pretty much a closed loop. Thats where you are for the day pretty much. My point was based more on events like the US Open 9 Ball, US Open 10 Ball and things of that sort in large convention centers or hotels.

Often times players are in and out never to be seen between at these types of events. Of course this is not all players all the time. I have yet to see any player I was around or could see with my own eyes turn away a fan with a reasonable request for a short conversation or autograph. When presented with the situation everyone I have seen has handled it well. My point was that as a tactic to add value I think some sort of guideline ,that is reasonable to a player ,to just be in and around a venue when not playing makes sense. It would have top make sense for everyone in order to be of any value but I do think that when trying to tell someone how to run an event they are paying for it would be a good idea to have some carrots to go with the stick. I mean if the guys are gonna do it anyway why not get the extra points for it by giving it a name?

I'm not going to get into outside sponsors. That horse is so dead they cant even find DNA traces.
Click to expand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAM
Scott Lee said:
Justin...Great post! Except for trying to go "too big" too soon, Trudeaux had the right idea, about making the players tow the line. Nice attire, good attitudes, and SHOW UP in the stands to support the events and the spectators...all were ideas that merit more exposure. If he had just taken a million dollars each year, for 3 years; split it 10 ways, and added $100K to 10 events each year, pool would have hit the "big time" by now, imo. Everyone would have been paid...on time...and pool could well have been all over t.v.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Very good theory IMO
Good post
 
JCIN said:
I know you are just stirring the pot and I agree with some of your points but there is a lot you don't know. No I am not going to tell you what it is.
Click to expand...

No, it's not stirring the pot. It's a legitimate issue.
Just no one is willing to bring it up for discussion because they don't want to offend anyone they might know who doesn't like the idea of possibly being labeled a dropout, despite the fact that the "label" might be completely correct.

I specifically said that it wasn't meant to offend.

But given the topics nature, it's going to do that, regardless.

Seriously, if you wanted someone to run a business for you, would you want someone who actually has the critical thinking skills that a business education might bring, or would you want the guy who quit high school whos living ultimately depends on the next score he makes?
That isn't to completely dismiss the value of a "street" education, but if there is one thing that "street" lacks, it's long term vision.
Sure you have success stories of self made people, but that is the exception.

I'm am positive that there are things i don't know, but i am not concerned with them, and this isn't trying to focus on this P.A. over others.

It's looking at the past 20 years and the ultimate deterioration of pool in that time span, and one of the potential underlying reasons that might be contributing to what "seems" like players lack of ability to work together towards a common goal that benefits the whole.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAM
SUPERSTAR said:
No, it's not stirring the pot. It's a legitimate issue.
Just no one is willing to bring it up for discussion because they don't want to offend anyone they might know who doesn't like the idea of possibly being labeled a dropout, despite the fact that the "label" might be completely correct.

I specifically said that it wasn't meant to offend.

But given the topics nature, it's going to do that, regardless.

Seriously, if you wanted someone to run a business for you, would you want someone who actually has the critical thinking skills that a business education might bring, or would you want the guy who quit high school whos living ultimately depends on the next score he makes?
That isn't to completely dismiss the value of a "street" education, but if there is one thing that "street" lacks, it's long term vision.
Sure you have success stories of self made people, but that is the exception.

I'm am positive that there are things i don't know, but i am not concerned with them, and this isn't trying to focus on this P.A. over others.

It's looking at the past 20 years and the ultimate deterioration of pool in that time span, and one of the potential underlying reasons that might be contributing to what "seems" like players lack of ability to work together towards a common goal that benefits the whole.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with your thoughts on this, and I do understand the strategy you're trying to relay in your posts.

Currently, I'm working with a well-known author on a book about one of the richest men in the world. When the book is finalized, it will be a bestseller. This man, I'm not sure how he flew under the radar, but his story is fascinating. :)

Oh, he came from very humble beginnings, had a paper route as a young boy, grew up in poverty. The one thing about him that I remember most is what he learned as a young man going into the Army. Back in his era, the boot camps were a little different than they are today. :grin-square:

Anyway, he found out early in life that in order to succeed, you must learn how to delegate to the right people, finding AND surrounding yourself with people that can do the job, competent people. In fact, this strategy brought him wealth beyond my comprehension. To this day, I'm still shocked that he's flown under the media's radar.

The point is that you can't do everything yourself, and it is imperative to find the right person for the job in order to grow and be a success. Those who are chief cook and bottle washer can only grow so big, and that's it. When you run all aspects of a business yourself, obviously you can't expect it to get bigger and better. I'm stuck in that trap myself but only because nobody can do what I do as good as I do it, so I think. :wink:

If the men are serious about a male pro organization, then it would be to their advantage to find the right people to serve functions to help the organizational entity succeed. They should be getting a public relations person because right now if there was a Pool Gallup Poll, their popularity is losing big time. This would change if they had the right people in their organization.

Dealing with promoters and TDs, presenting new organization plans for future events should not be handled by the players themselves, but rather, it should have been somebody else. It could have been communicated better and may have been accepted by the recipient in a positive way, rather than how this thread has developed into most of us -- not all -- finding fault with the way this pool organization is proceeding as of this date. :)

Good posts, Superstar, and right on the money. Of course, you do happen to have an education, which is why you know this strategy can be effective if utilized correctly by the male pro organization. :grin-square:
 
Last edited:
You can bring in business men, but they better be real familiar with the industry. Otherwise they tend to think they have found this great untapped resource when exploited by them will be huge. After all pool has 65 million participants, It's only natural to think this. You can't take this approach-You have to crawl before you walk.

KT wanted to and in fact did "own pro pool" for a while. However he soon found that owning pro pool wasn't owning much. Other businessmen who flopped -The Billiard Channel Guys, The Galveston Crew, Robert L (President of the UPA), Linda Chan.

Pool is in an odd and unique position and we need individuals with
business experience and pool sense or a Board with this mix.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAM
So, what is it about the game of pool that has made Larry Hubbart, Terry Bell, Mark Griffin and John Lewis so successful? Is it what I call the 1% rule? One percent of the talent versus the 99% who have the money? Very rarely the two intertwine and make for a rich pro player. One who pays all their own bills. The rest of the pro players eek out a living. Some better than others. If you ask the average player which PRO player has MADE the most money FROM the game of pool, I'd bet not one would answer Larry Hubbart. Most might say Efren. A few Jeanette. But its not even close. If you don't play APA, you might even recognize who the original "Iceman" was. When Larry played in our room, no one would have guessed he was the smartest guy in the place. And now the most successful!

Perhaps we need to take a step back and look anew at the game we love so much. When the folks running the Indy Racing League chose a new COO, who would have guessed it would have been a guy who ran the MMA Tour. That takes vision.

Lyn
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Can of worms...

This is not to say that certain pool players aren't good people.

But when it comes to critical thinking skills...

How many of the top male players have an education? Let alone, a business education? (once again, this is not to rip on the players, but it a statement to get to some core issues)

I can name several that dropped out of high school.

For the longest time, i remember hearing how players had issues with Charlie Williams because C.W. thought that he was better then everyone else, because he had an education and they didn't.

Now if anyone knows my history of posting, I am not a C.W. fan at all and in my opinion, C.W. is an egomaniac. (i should know, i am an egomaniac as well)

But despite all that, C.W. IS a successful business person.
He earns his nut.

Despite C.W. going about everything wrong initially (I blame the egomania), he has managed to survive.
I don't attribute that to his being an insider in the industry, and i don't attribute that to his strength as a player, and i don't attribute that to luck.
As far as i am concerned, it is in part due to the fact that he sacrificed 4 or 5 years of his life in college, learned what delayed gratification is, and set his business plan in motion and is now able to reap the rewards from that.
As much as i would LOVE to rip on C.W., i can't touch him on that.

How exactly are players who lack an education, regardless of why, supposed to understand the nature of business in a delayed gratification type of way (long term future), when they are instant gratification, cash money type of people? Some not even knowing where or when their next paycheck will come from.
Most people that i know who went to college, have a very good grasp on long term vision, and those that dropped out of high school, or never went to college, do not have that same mentality.
At least, that is my experience.

Sure you can learn from the industry.
Sure you can learn from people before you that have either had success or failure.
But is that really enough? Enough to get a grasp on long term vision?

I just wonder, cause i keep seeing the players make the same exact mistakes, over and over again, so obviously, they aren't learning from everyone else's mistakes before them, so what is the reason for it then?

And AGAIN, this is not to say that anyone who lacks an education is a bad person, because that is not the case at all.

But, to many outsiders, many people posting in this thread, it is glaringly obvious, that certain pool players despite their intentions, just absolutely positively DO NOT GET IT.
It all seems like instant gratification stuff, and not long term thinking.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that they want money in escrow from a guy who has no blemishes on his record for payment.
As far as i am concerned, if you are going to go after someone who has a perfect record, then there is something else that you want.

MAYBE, if they pressure Zuglan into putting the money up, then they figure that they can hit him up with more and more demands, such as SEEDING.
Otherwise, since he always pays, why bother?

The only way a players organization is going to work, is if you bring in someone from the outside working WITH the players, because poolplayers by themselves have historically proven that they are their own worst enemy.

And again, this is not an attempt to belittle the men pros, i just feel that what i have said is at the CORE of a lot of the issues with mens pool, when it comes to them banding together for the greater good, and nobody is ever willing to say it.

Let me go put on my flame proof suit.
Exit, stage left.
Click to expand...

I believe that having a college education can be a little bit overrated. It definitely helps in getting a job. Earning a college education shows motivation and the ability to finish something that you started. However, how many people do you know that have a degree in a certain field but end up working in another? Some of the most successful business people that I know do not have a college education. They have drive, perseverance, and common sense. They share the same traits as many college graduates. I tend to think it's the individual and not the degree that makes a good business person.

As far as CW being a good business man. I've only been to one tournament that was ran by Dragon promotions. The pro portion of the tournament was fun to watch but the amateur events were the worse ran that I've ever seen. IMHO
 
cardiac kid said:
If you don't play APA, you might even recognize who the original "Iceman" was. When Larry played in our room, no one would have guessed he was the smartest guy in the place. And now the most successful!

Lyn
Click to expand...

I think I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of the apa players never even heard of Larry Hubbart or Terry Bell. I might be wrong about that, but I doubt it.
 
I would guess that a big difference is someone who does what they do out of a love for the game, instead of a hope to make a profit of some kind for themselves.

If you truly love this game and truly do what you can for the game itself, profits will generally come.

This industry is full of folks who play the "I do it for the love of the game" card. The majority of them couldn't tell you anything about the game or the people within it. They are looking to make a quick buck from the game.

Samm and I were chatting the other day about our audience here on AzB. I think the forums are full of people who truly love the game. They don't just like it, they eat sleep and dream pool. And they truly love the game.

Being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time helps too.

Mike

cardiac kid said:
So, what is it about the game of pool that has made Larry Hubbart, Terry Bell, Mark Griffin and John Lewis so successful? Is it what I call the 1% rule? One percent of the talent versus the 99% who have the money? Very rarely the two intertwine and make for a rich pro player. One who pays all their own bills. The rest of the pro players eek out a living. Some better than others. If you ask the average player which PRO player has MADE the most money FROM the game of pool, I'd bet not one would answer Larry Hubbart. Most might say Efren. A few Jeanette. But its not even close. If you don't play APA, you might even recognize who the original "Iceman" was. When Larry played in our room, no one would have guessed he was the smartest guy in the place. And now the most successful!

Perhaps we need to take a step back and look anew at the game we love so much. When the folks running the Indy Racing League chose a new COO, who would have guessed it would have been a guy who ran the MMA Tour. That takes vision.

Lyn
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top