Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

Pro association/Joss TS events

Just a few realities here:

-If a pro organization is created to serve senior members as union leaders, primarily for their own benefit, while charging everybody else $50 a year for membership it will fail, even among those players who aspire to be pro level.

-The advanced amatuer pool fan is too smart to be deceived, when a group is seeking special status in tournaments there will be a backlash. Alienating the interested ametuer player is a mistake, probably the death nail of professional billiards.

-In the past event at Turning Stone only 2 or 3 elite level players didn't go far. It was not because of the draw, but because of thier poor play. Specifically Shane Van Boening and Corey Duel, anybody watching knows that. All the other top players were in contention.

-Nobody will be coercing Mike Zuglan into doing anything he doesn't believe in.

-Without these malcontent pros this event would have the same spectators, easily make a full field and still be the best regional open event I could ever imagine.

It's ironic that persons who have won the most are bringing up their issues with the tour. The manner in which they are approaching this will fail.

I would suggest that all Turning Stone players are required to hit a certain number of local stops, say 3 in the past 12 months, before coming to the Turning Stone and stealing added monies from a sucessful regional event. How's that for a return ultimatum?
 
Do we have any proof that the ABP spoke with Zuglan about this and mentioned seeding and escrow prize monies, or is this runoff from rumors and speculation again?
 
Doesn't matter.
Zuglan won't crack. He could care less who thinks they are special.

Many players have come, thought they were special, and gotten booted from the tour.
Believe me, if some pros want to go flex their muscle, Zuglan will gladly go tell them what to do with themselves, and they will be sitting on the sidelines as their spot gets sold to someone else and watching as the local pool playing plumber, or the local pool playing landscaper takes their shot to win money that the pro considers THEIRS.

Zuglan should be applauded for how he deals with those guys who feel they are special.

Many people, including myself, HATE the flip the coin rule, but the only reason this was done was that there was so much arguing from the crybabies when a lag was close, that he finally said THE HECK with the crybabies, Flip it and shut up, and if you don't like it, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY, here is your entry fee back, have a nice day.
What happens? They shut up and flip. End of problem.

It would be nice to see Zuglan type enforcement at EVERY pro event.
Gee, pros that have to follow the same rules as everyone else, and are held to the same standards and don't get special treatment. Amazing concept!:rolleyes:
 
HeLLFiSH said:
Do we have any proof that the ABP spoke with Zuglan about this and mentioned seeding and escrow prize monies, or is this runoff from rumors and speculation again?
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Good point, BUT after a few days of this thread running here, I'm pretty confident that they're aware of the sentiment and if it was not true, would have, by now, made or had someone make a statement to the contrary. I hope they're not "cutting off their nose to spite their face" as my Mom use to say.
 
An easy enough solution would be to seed the top 16 ranked pros attending the event and seed the top 16 Joss tour points leaders. It would keep the top pros from facing each other for a couple of rounds and it would keep the Joss tour point leaders form facing a top pro or points leader right off also. If that would keep everyone at least semi happy it might be a win win situation. As far as demanding the money be put into escrow for an event that has many years of history of paying without any problem that would be a foolish demand.
 
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But... but... isn't THIS the governing body for Men's Pro Pool? Johnny and Rodney are prominently displayed as members. Have I missed something? :rolleyes:
 
So, this new Pro Association is going to demand money in escrow or the 8 players (l don't know how many signed up currently) are going to boycott the tournament? Is that right? So, are they going to demand that from World Championship Promoters? I don't think Mika's got paid for his World 10 Ball Championship - I could be wrong - but haven't heard yet of him getting paid. Or are they plan on just bullying promoters only in US just to get their way?

S.
 
dardusm said:
Being a pro player is just like being in business for yourself. You need to look at the ROI of a tournament as well as other factors before making a decision to play. It is smart business to operate in this matter.

I do have a pet peeve about pro players complaining about the lack of money in the game. There hasn't been real money in the game (not counting IPT) for years. In the early 1900's, the top pro's made some bank i.e. Greenleaf, Hoppe, etc. My point is that it's common knowledge that there is no real money in the game except for the top few. So if I want to be a pro player, I know going in that it's tough to make a living on playing alone. Like any good business though, maybe there are other ways to make income such as lessons, exhibitions, house pro, sponsorship, etc. Here is an idea. If I'm a pro, call ahead to local rooms in the area that I'm getting ready to play a tournament and set up a challenge match, clinic, exhibition. Sell autographed cueballs, etc. Set up times for lessons. There are lots of ways to make income in this game. It just takes some work and outside the box thinking.

Ok, I'm done preaching :smile:
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That sounds too much like WORK! :eek:
 
sunnyday said:
So, this new Pro Association is going to demand money in escrow or the 8 players (l don't know how many signed up currently) are going to boycott the tournament? Is that right? So, are they going to demand that from World Championship Promoters? I don't think Mika's got paid for his World 10 Ball Championship - I could be wrong - but haven't heard yet of him getting paid. Or are they plan on just bullying promoters only in US just to get their way?

S.
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Well, in the case of TS when you plan a robbery you want to make sure the money is going to be there. :grin-square:
 
cueman said:
An easy enough solution would be to seed the top 16 ranked pros attending the event and seed the top 16 Joss tour points leaders. It would keep the top pros from facing each other for a couple of rounds and it would keep the Joss tour point leaders form facing a top pro or points leader right off also. If that would keep everyone at least semi happy it might be a win win situation. As far as demanding the money be put into escrow for an event that has many years of history of paying without any problem that would be a foolish demand.
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Cueman- an easy solution is for the "pro's" shut their pie holes and play like every one else! As it has been stated before, this is a regional tour that has been around in one form or another since Dawn Muerin started in in the late 80's early 90's. The tour got along without the "pro's". Everyone gets treated the same. Prima Dona's need not attend.

Mike Zuglan is THE MAN. On of the few people that knows how to play pool that I respect.

Bob Campbell
 
pdiddy said:
If the pros were smart, they would get Mike Zuglan to run there organization.
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Zuglan wouldn't want the job, most likely, but that's a great idea! :)

I'd say welcome to the forum, pdiddy, since this is your first post, but I see you've been a member since February 2007. :grin:
 
HeLLFiSH said:
Do we have any proof that the ABP spoke with Zuglan about this and mentioned seeding and escrow prize monies, or is this runoff from rumors and speculation again?
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I asked the same thing and as of post #114 it appears to be rumors and speculation but I don't think that is any longer the topic of the thread.
 
IF, the pa wants to be seeded, yes I think that is kinda bs. I would request that the promoters that have stiffed players in the past post the money up front but from all accounts it doesn't sound like this has ever happened with TS. I've worked for enough people for cash that have taken their sweet time paying me. When I work for those people again I make them pay that day or never work for them again. People that I've never had a problem with get no insult about up front money from me. Maybe the pa should take this approach. As a union member I"m all in favor of a pro players union, but you have to be reasonable.
 
Pro assn.

Bob Jewett said:
But... but... isn't THIS the governing body for Men's Pro Pool? Johnny and Rodney are prominently displayed as members. Have I missed something? :rolleyes:
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Mr. Jewett (as usual) makes a VERY GOOD POINT.

One of the first things the new association should have done is to seperate themselves from the UPA - they must know they are shown as members of the UPA.

The uninformed pool public now does not know which organization is the 'real one'.

I don't believe the UPA has been recognized (by the BCA) as the 'governing body of professional pool' for about 3-4 years.

Too many pool groups do not act in a professional manner. Keep your information current to not 'mislead' the public - after awhile it becomes intentional misleading.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
nathandumoulin said:
So the only thing that makes Efren the best player to ever wield a cue is the fact that he's hit more balls than everyone else? What about Keith? Also the product of only practice?

If that's the case, than try explaining the phenomenon that is Alex Pagulayan. He plays a few times a year now, and yet still shows up to the occasional event and destroys everyone with ease.

Come on Jam....:eek:

I agree with most of what you say, but this statement is completely disrespectful to the professional players. It's actually part of why our game struggles. The league players refuse to respect the pros simply because they have that bullshit "I could be just as good if I tried harder" mentality.

Again, no disrespect intended. :)
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Just because Pag doesnt hit em as much as he USE TO doesnt mean he cant bring out the "A" game when he needs too?? He's a WORLD BEATER!!! All he needs to do is hit balls for maybe 30 minutes and muscle memory will kick in.. When your a top player like that your game upkeep is pretty low to the lesser skilled player and dont think for a minute Alex doesnt practice THAT often.. Guys like him dont step away from a table for that long especially at his age. So to say that the LEAUGE players are saying such things is pretty harsh..

Maybe taking out of context this comment is :confused:

End of all if the PROS dont wanna deal with Mike and his MAJOR TS tournament events then they shouldnt come. Hell im playing in December's event and i work 50+ hours a week to put food on the table. Yet im there (out classed... Probably) but i go because its a huge event that happens twice a year and i have the chance to harass top players (if not BEAT them!!!) and have a good time..

Oh and btw.. the new players association main goal is about promoters having the money locked and PAYING the players after their places were decided well guess what?? Zulgan has PAID every place for the past 14 years in cold hard CASH!!! Not a check but CASH MONEY!!!! All before this NEW association formed and they should see it that way out of respect towards Mike and HIS repsect to ALL the players that play in ALL his events leading up to the big ones!!!! Lets not forget all those TOUR players that pay their dues all year justt to be SEEDED for the Major events?? BLIND draw FTW!!!

I respect what top players are trying to do but you do have to realize that Zulgan has giving them EVERYTHING from day one.. Sorry if there arent any points but whatever... There are plenty more tour point tournamtents to play in.. That and their lucky to have an event like this TWICE a year!! How many tournaments beside DCC and the OPEN payout this big?? Not many!!!

Forget who said it but i have to agree... Almost all of the people in the new player association finished in the top 5 spotss and maybe played in two events (except Hatch who has DOMINATED the tour) all season long....

Just some food for thought.
 
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RunoutJJ said:...
I respect what top players are trying to do but you do have to realize that Zulgan has giving them EVERYTHING from day one.

Runout can't agree with you on this one. The "pro's" are not very well informed or good business people. What is the strength of their position? Give us what we demand, or... we won't come? Pretty weak. Do you know what the #1 reason for being in business is? The only reason? To make money! So, when the question is asked, "Can I make money without Archer, Morris and "the pro's"? The answer is a resounding YES! The Turning Stone event did it in the past. It has a track record of making money without "the pros". Therefor the "pro's" position has no impact or standing.

Sadly, this is not the time to be pulling this crap. The game is almost dead here in the northeast. I understand some parts of the country are doing ok, but where I am it is dead. Plus there is a huge economic upheaval going on. Ultimately this could work for pool and bring it back. But for now, the idea of someone crying "Gimme!" is falling on very resentful ears.

Bob
 
doitforthegame said:
... So, when the question is asked, "Can I make money without Archer, Morris and "the pro's"? The answer is a resounding YES! The Turning Stone event did it in the past. It has a track record of making money without "the pros". Therefor the "pro's" position has no impact or standing. ...
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I'm not sure we really know the answer to that, Bob. If you'll look at post #34 of this thread, you'll find the results from all but two of the 15 Turning Stone events. Every one of those events had quite a few top pros present (and, incidentally, only one of those events was won by someone who is not a top pro).
 
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