I was wondering who was going to be the first one to bring this up, I didn't because I have piled on enough.
I wish I had the money and equipment to do the memorial tourney.
TVmike has proven untrustworthy
- Thread starter jay helfert
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I was wondering who was going to be the first one to bring this up, I didn't because I have piled on enough.
I wish I had the money and equipment to do the memorial tourney.
Are you putting the tournament on or just streaming it? It sounds to me like
you are a bad financial planner. If you leave your rent or mortgage to the last minute without the means to make it, its no ones fault but your own Mike.
If you have to resort to extortion in the form of using the passing of Dawn in order to justify your means, then its not a very great showing on your character.
If you don't have an extra 200 at the end of the month after all the bills are paid, then you are one hurtin dude and just maybe, you shouldn't be gallivanting cross country with your streaming gear and trying to make others responsible for your mismanagement or misfortunes.
You've already dug yourself into quite a large hole in this thread and I can only see you going deeper if you keep it up.
Lets us know the chow mein tastes like when you get there Mikey.
Red Forman
Registered
I may give it to you! It has bad blood on it now.
I couldn't do that Jay! I've already offered $12, so I wouldn't want to make any changes to the original offer.
I hate piling on here...but like Justin I feel too compelled. If you all feel sorry for Jay (I do) just what would it be like being Mike's landlord. I can just imagine the drama.
Mike,
Do yourself a favor and back away from the keyboard. The world can only see so much of your Azz at any one sitting.
Mike,
Do yourself a favor and back away from the keyboard. The world can only see so much of your Azz at any one sitting.
I drafted this earlier, but what the hey. I'm concerned that this mess is going to ruin it for other people, such as myself, that enjoy filming pool and sharing with everyone. For example, Greg Sullivan could be very leery on letting anyone film significant chunks of the Derby, since he apparently has been getting screwed too, over this.
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well, from reading this thread and copy and pasting every post from Jay and Mike side by side to compare with, I've learned the following.
Jay and Mike had a deal that worked like this.... Jay would give him access to the small room where the onepocket challenge would be held and allow him to setup his equipment and record the whole thing. In exchange for Jay allowing him access to this room, he would provide Jay with edited DVD's ready for sale, of the top runs of the event. Jay would then sell them, probably due to Jays wide customer base over the years, and Mike would receive a agreed upon chunk of the sale.
This deal that they agreed upon, apparently is challenged in no way by Mike. Therefore it must be true. Jay also offered Mike access to his room, which would eliminate any cost of lodging. Once you eliminate that, you have only getting there and back and food. The deal they worked out, did not include Jay paying any expenses of Mike's, didn't include any money for putting together the DVD's. Mike apparently felt it was a good deal for him, since he gets to hang out at the Derby, tape something that might sell good, have a good way to sell them in Jay, and also tape other matches and sell them on his own. ( I see a dvd for sale of a match from the Derby on his site)
Mike trots on home with the footage and then at that point, seems to have a change of heart about honoring their deal. He now is going to bend Jay over and make him pay for this footage. Jay, who wants the footage bad, is victim to this blackmail. Mike gives him the "I'm broke thing, cost me money and all that" and next thing Jay knows, he''s forking over 200.00 to Mike, which apparently is a gift.
I went to the Derby too, and I had a project I wanted to do, to help promote the Derby. I love the premise of the Derby and think it's a invaluable piece of history. I got in contact with Greg Sullivan who puts the whole thing on and told him of my wishes. He thought it was great that I wanted to do that, and he offered me full access to the venue. I also spoke with Pat Fleming, to clear anything I shot in the Accu-stats arena.
Now even though I had full access to the venue, there is no way I would have thought I could waltz into the onepocket room and decide to tape the entire thing and go sell it. I would know I would need permission from either Greg or Jay, who runs the event.
But Mike says this "I should just for the fact that you think *I* do not have intellectual property rights for this material and that you will somehow stop me from selling DVDS. Is this a comedy act or something? First of all anything recorded on my cameras is instantly my intellectual property. You couldn’t or anyone else for that matter tell me that anything I didn’t cover was not my property to do with as I pleased and you sure as hell couldn’t legally claim it unless you had an agreement on paper which stated such.
Now this worries me, because I think if people see a statement like that, it's hurting guys like me. Yes, in a public venue where it is reasonably expected that a person might be taped, you can probably film. But that doesn't mean I can decide I'm going to walk into a small room and decide to plunk down my equipment and tape 3 days of action. I would certainly have to get approval to do that.
So it looks like Mike has now said.. hey.. it's on my camera, therefore it is mine and i can do what I want with it. So I'm sure Jay is steaming now.. he's forked over 200 bucks he wasn't supposed to, he's got a guy that's reneged on the deal he worked out with him. So Jay has no choice but to agree to Mike's demands.. Mike has the footage, but he has it because Jay allowed him to camp out there. so Jay agrees to these new terms where Mike is going to get paid up front when he sends the DVD's. So now we're on Deal # 2.
Next Jay finds out Mike is selling Dvd's behind his back and when confronted with this, Mike says "well.. hey I got expenses". With that statement, Mike is agreeing that he shouldn't have been doing that, but he felt he had the right to anyways.
Next you go into this long 5 month roundabout thing where Jay keeps asking for DVD's and gets some here and there. he's being pestered to send money before he gets the DVD's and he won't do that. Jay says I only want this stuff shipped to my house, but yet Mike sends to a PO box. Mike claims he shipped some DVDs, Jay says he never got them. Jay says.. well where the hell is the tracking number then? Mike says.. ummm.. I don't know.. seems I lost it.
So after everything that has happened to Jay, he's about fed up with the whole thing.. he's feeling like he's getting bent over again. So after waiting and waiting for 4 weeks and no DVD. Jay thinks long and hard and decides to post on here that he had a bad business arrangement. Not just bad in pieces here and there, but bad from the first moment.
Jay believes he's getting jerked around and Mike comes on saying how dare you accuse me of being a thief. Mike does not dispute their original deal and the fact he broke his word with Jay, he does not dispute that he decided to make a whole new deal.. kind of a "hey.. i got the footage.. you want it.. you agree to my deal now sucka" Mike's whole concern here, seems to be that Jay didn't believe that he sent the DVD's out. Not about all the other screwing going on.
Jay had every right to be concerned about it. If someone told me they shipped me something a month ago, and I asked for a tracking # and they said they lost it.. I'd be leery too.
Mike... you keep saying you love pool and all, but you can't do a bunch of free streaming and then when it comes time to do actual business deals, screw people over and then lament about how much time you've spent doing things for free. I am beside myself, trying to figure out how you can be trying to build a business, but in the space of a few months,
1. you've managed to screw over the people involved in the bad blood thing 2. in your biggest stage yet with that event, you came unprepared, ran a untested stream without pre-arranged proper connections within ustream to fix any problems as they happen 3. manage to alienate most of your customers by ignoring them and telling them it was working fine for you. 3. Prior to that event, spamming AZB members thru PM's and getting banned 4. even though AZB lifted the ban during the event, you made no posts concerning the issues with your customers 5. Made a deal with a major figure in the pool world and media, in Jay, and broke your promise with him 6. Then you blackmail him and claim the footage is all yours and force him to abide by your new deal. 7. Sell DVD's behind their back and I"m sure have pissed off Greg Sullivan, the man behind one of the biggest tournaments of the year 8. Take forever to send Jay his stuff and then ship it to a PO box even though it didn't want it to go there, lose the tracking number (which you could have got, had you wanted to) address it to the wrong address and then bad mouth Jay for not believing that you sent it. After breaking all these promises, continuing to change deadlines, blackmailing him for more money, you bad mouth him for being upset. 9. and last but certainly NOT LEAST, Hold the threat of not doing a tribute you apparently agreed to do for a woman that was savagely and brutally murdered and dumped in a swamp like trash, if he doesn't send you money now. You couldn't have even been counting on that money, because as far as you knew up until yesterday, he wasn't going to ever get the DVD's.
You act as though NONE of this is your fault and you blame everybody except yourself, for your own poor actions.
You have burned many bridges in the pool world, and for what reason.. a quick buck? Believe me, I"m more broke then you are, but I have not screwed one person over. I have donated hundreds of hours of my time for this game over the past 3 years and will continue to do so.
You owe everyone a apology, but even if you do that and actually mean it, it does very little in repairing the damage you have done to yourself. Forget about all the woe is me shit, you don't hold the corner on that market man. Man up and admit everything you have done and mean it, then maybe... and I mean maybe... some people might give you another chance. But if they don't or if they are leery, you have no one to blame but yourself.
------------------------------------------------------------
well, from reading this thread and copy and pasting every post from Jay and Mike side by side to compare with, I've learned the following.
Jay and Mike had a deal that worked like this.... Jay would give him access to the small room where the onepocket challenge would be held and allow him to setup his equipment and record the whole thing. In exchange for Jay allowing him access to this room, he would provide Jay with edited DVD's ready for sale, of the top runs of the event. Jay would then sell them, probably due to Jays wide customer base over the years, and Mike would receive a agreed upon chunk of the sale.
This deal that they agreed upon, apparently is challenged in no way by Mike. Therefore it must be true. Jay also offered Mike access to his room, which would eliminate any cost of lodging. Once you eliminate that, you have only getting there and back and food. The deal they worked out, did not include Jay paying any expenses of Mike's, didn't include any money for putting together the DVD's. Mike apparently felt it was a good deal for him, since he gets to hang out at the Derby, tape something that might sell good, have a good way to sell them in Jay, and also tape other matches and sell them on his own. ( I see a dvd for sale of a match from the Derby on his site)
Mike trots on home with the footage and then at that point, seems to have a change of heart about honoring their deal. He now is going to bend Jay over and make him pay for this footage. Jay, who wants the footage bad, is victim to this blackmail. Mike gives him the "I'm broke thing, cost me money and all that" and next thing Jay knows, he''s forking over 200.00 to Mike, which apparently is a gift.
I went to the Derby too, and I had a project I wanted to do, to help promote the Derby. I love the premise of the Derby and think it's a invaluable piece of history. I got in contact with Greg Sullivan who puts the whole thing on and told him of my wishes. He thought it was great that I wanted to do that, and he offered me full access to the venue. I also spoke with Pat Fleming, to clear anything I shot in the Accu-stats arena.
Now even though I had full access to the venue, there is no way I would have thought I could waltz into the onepocket room and decide to tape the entire thing and go sell it. I would know I would need permission from either Greg or Jay, who runs the event.
But Mike says this "I should just for the fact that you think *I* do not have intellectual property rights for this material and that you will somehow stop me from selling DVDS. Is this a comedy act or something? First of all anything recorded on my cameras is instantly my intellectual property. You couldn’t or anyone else for that matter tell me that anything I didn’t cover was not my property to do with as I pleased and you sure as hell couldn’t legally claim it unless you had an agreement on paper which stated such.
Now this worries me, because I think if people see a statement like that, it's hurting guys like me. Yes, in a public venue where it is reasonably expected that a person might be taped, you can probably film. But that doesn't mean I can decide I'm going to walk into a small room and decide to plunk down my equipment and tape 3 days of action. I would certainly have to get approval to do that.
So it looks like Mike has now said.. hey.. it's on my camera, therefore it is mine and i can do what I want with it. So I'm sure Jay is steaming now.. he's forked over 200 bucks he wasn't supposed to, he's got a guy that's reneged on the deal he worked out with him. So Jay has no choice but to agree to Mike's demands.. Mike has the footage, but he has it because Jay allowed him to camp out there. so Jay agrees to these new terms where Mike is going to get paid up front when he sends the DVD's. So now we're on Deal # 2.
Next Jay finds out Mike is selling Dvd's behind his back and when confronted with this, Mike says "well.. hey I got expenses". With that statement, Mike is agreeing that he shouldn't have been doing that, but he felt he had the right to anyways.
Next you go into this long 5 month roundabout thing where Jay keeps asking for DVD's and gets some here and there. he's being pestered to send money before he gets the DVD's and he won't do that. Jay says I only want this stuff shipped to my house, but yet Mike sends to a PO box. Mike claims he shipped some DVDs, Jay says he never got them. Jay says.. well where the hell is the tracking number then? Mike says.. ummm.. I don't know.. seems I lost it.
So after everything that has happened to Jay, he's about fed up with the whole thing.. he's feeling like he's getting bent over again. So after waiting and waiting for 4 weeks and no DVD. Jay thinks long and hard and decides to post on here that he had a bad business arrangement. Not just bad in pieces here and there, but bad from the first moment.
Jay believes he's getting jerked around and Mike comes on saying how dare you accuse me of being a thief. Mike does not dispute their original deal and the fact he broke his word with Jay, he does not dispute that he decided to make a whole new deal.. kind of a "hey.. i got the footage.. you want it.. you agree to my deal now sucka" Mike's whole concern here, seems to be that Jay didn't believe that he sent the DVD's out. Not about all the other screwing going on.
Jay had every right to be concerned about it. If someone told me they shipped me something a month ago, and I asked for a tracking # and they said they lost it.. I'd be leery too.
Mike... you keep saying you love pool and all, but you can't do a bunch of free streaming and then when it comes time to do actual business deals, screw people over and then lament about how much time you've spent doing things for free. I am beside myself, trying to figure out how you can be trying to build a business, but in the space of a few months,
1. you've managed to screw over the people involved in the bad blood thing 2. in your biggest stage yet with that event, you came unprepared, ran a untested stream without pre-arranged proper connections within ustream to fix any problems as they happen 3. manage to alienate most of your customers by ignoring them and telling them it was working fine for you. 3. Prior to that event, spamming AZB members thru PM's and getting banned 4. even though AZB lifted the ban during the event, you made no posts concerning the issues with your customers 5. Made a deal with a major figure in the pool world and media, in Jay, and broke your promise with him 6. Then you blackmail him and claim the footage is all yours and force him to abide by your new deal. 7. Sell DVD's behind their back and I"m sure have pissed off Greg Sullivan, the man behind one of the biggest tournaments of the year 8. Take forever to send Jay his stuff and then ship it to a PO box even though it didn't want it to go there, lose the tracking number (which you could have got, had you wanted to) address it to the wrong address and then bad mouth Jay for not believing that you sent it. After breaking all these promises, continuing to change deadlines, blackmailing him for more money, you bad mouth him for being upset. 9. and last but certainly NOT LEAST, Hold the threat of not doing a tribute you apparently agreed to do for a woman that was savagely and brutally murdered and dumped in a swamp like trash, if he doesn't send you money now. You couldn't have even been counting on that money, because as far as you knew up until yesterday, he wasn't going to ever get the DVD's.
You act as though NONE of this is your fault and you blame everybody except yourself, for your own poor actions.
You have burned many bridges in the pool world, and for what reason.. a quick buck? Believe me, I"m more broke then you are, but I have not screwed one person over. I have donated hundreds of hours of my time for this game over the past 3 years and will continue to do so.
You owe everyone a apology, but even if you do that and actually mean it, it does very little in repairing the damage you have done to yourself. Forget about all the woe is me shit, you don't hold the corner on that market man. Man up and admit everything you have done and mean it, then maybe... and I mean maybe... some people might give you another chance. But if they don't or if they are leery, you have no one to blame but yourself.
How does he wipe his butt, with a stick and a rag?
Red Forman
Registered
I think it's probably a good thing that you are giving up on the pool community. If we ever reached a point that we needed people like you involved I can honestly say I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
I deal with people like you on a daily bases. You've been backed into a corner and resorted to emotional manipulation in an attempt to make a little cash.
The only suicide being committed as a result of this thread is that of your already tarnished reputation in the pool community.
I’m simply telling you it’s matter of cause and effect. BECAUSE 1. If you didn’t pay me for the transaction The EFFECT is I will not have the resources. It’s that simple. I do not have the resources to even go out of the house now, which is why I’ve quit playing pool, quit streaming etc. I don’t go anywhere because if I use any resources I cannot pay basic bills. I do not even have a car I can drive at this time because of accident that was not my fault. There is no extortion it’s cause and effect. I already told you because of the economy I am hurting more than ever so I did GREATLY appreciate the fact that you were getting these DVDS and you were paying me for them quickly. It’s unfortunate this has transpired in this manner however there still is the NEED and there will always be cause and effect it is an irrefutable law of the universe.
Anybody who doesn't want to waste an hour reading the thread, this synopsis is it.
Let's add Mike threatened to commit suicide and implied he could not do the Dawn Fital memorial if Jay didn't pay him immediately.
I hate to say it but Mike cannot be trusted at all at this point.
Chris
Man you're a sad pathetic head case, who gives a flying f*@ck about your financial situation. In case you do not know everybody world wide have different financial situations. And you act like you're the only HUMAN BEING (as you like to say so much) that has this problem.
You should start looking for employment(real job) immediately, your days of streaming and making DVD's I believe are over.
By now you couldn't give away FREE water in Hell.
Exactly this is almost like saying pay the money or the kid dies while a gun is being held to the kids head.
I don't know Jay personally, but my read on the situation is that he doesn't care so much about the money, it's the principle of the thing. He got screwed over and he doesn't like it. He's basically teaching Mike a lesson, namely, "you screwed over the wrong fella, buddy!"
And that's really true. Jay is highly respected in our world and it was certainly bad business and very short-sighted for Mike to change the deal and squeeze him for money that was not due. When Mike is capable of thinking about it dispassionately he will regret having done it, if he doesn't already.
It may be too late, but maybe not. Mike, I would stop digging. Tell Jay and the rest of AZB that you were wrong and that you are sorry, that you did it because you were in a financial bind and now very much regret it. You might be surprised how understanding people can be.
And that's really true. Jay is highly respected in our world and it was certainly bad business and very short-sighted for Mike to change the deal and squeeze him for money that was not due. When Mike is capable of thinking about it dispassionately he will regret having done it, if he doesn't already.
It may be too late, but maybe not. Mike, I would stop digging. Tell Jay and the rest of AZB that you were wrong and that you are sorry, that you did it because you were in a financial bind and now very much regret it. You might be surprised how understanding people can be.
Red Forman
Registered
I'm a huge fan of "Cause and Effect"!
Cause: Horrible business decisions
Effect: Reputation ruined, and little to no chance of getting more money.
Cause: Thinking you will support yourself doing low end streams in pool halls for free,
Effect: You are broke and being a emotional little girl because of it.
Cause: Getting a job
Effect: Having money to pay your bills.
Cause: Shafting Jay Helfert
Effect: Shafting yourself even worse.
Here is some free advice: Get a job
Actually, I think you may be able to in Mexico. Swhat I hear anyway. :wink:
You have still never replied to if you changed the original deal or not. He shouldn't have been paying for the transaction until he sold the DVDs and then payed you your cut.
You don't have a car because there was a wreck that wasn't your fault. Didn't you have insurance? You should have been able to pay your deductible and get a check to buy a new car. If you didn't have insurance, it pretty much was your fault.
You live in Detroit, probably the worst city economically in the entire country. Dude, buy a bus ticket and start somewhere else. Everyone else has left the city. Join the club.
My brother in law has the same attitude as you. Nothing is ever his fault. He has been fired from 3 jobs in 4 years and it was never his fault. He was awarded unemployment and was too lazy to go to his reviews to get his money, but that wasn't his fault either.
Until you take responsibility for your own actions and are accountable to yourself you will go nowhere. I am saying this with the best intentions as possible. My brother in law is a freaking turd and a drain on everyone around him. He lived with my wife and I until he screwed us out of $3000. Man up and take responsibilty for your actions. Until you do, you will never prosper. No one has ever gained anything in life by feeling sorry for themselves. Pick your ass up, stop b!tching and go get it done. Anything less is an injustice to yourself, no one else gives a shit.
Now I will tell you just in the past few minutes someone has volunteered to send me the money that you owe me and when you pay me then I will pay him back. That someone who is actually reading and comprehending the details here. Thank you so much. I have not got the money yet in my paypal but I am going to have faith and trust in his word because I believe in the human condition.
This just gets better and better. Well, now you have no excuse not to show up and stream Dawn's Memorial event.
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