AZ'ers are nothing short of AWESOME!!!
Collectively, we know just about everything. :clapping:
Collectively, we know just about everything. :clapping:
Whats the deal with Micarta ferulles?
- Thread starter PickPocket
- Start date
The "original Westinghouse Micarta" used for ferrule material by DPK was rod. He still has some but I don't think you could pry it from him unless you can buy one of his shafts and wait 10 years for the wood to season.
SouthWest still has some but you better know them real well to get one on a new shaft. About the only way to get one is to have a worn out shaft that had it and they will put Micarta back on when they build a new shaft. I believe the price is $500.00 for a shaft.
I had some rod about 10 years ago and got $100.00 each for a ferrule. Wish I had bought more when it was available would be a gold mine now.
SouthWest still has some but you better know them real well to get one on a new shaft. About the only way to get one is to have a worn out shaft that had it and they will put Micarta back on when they build a new shaft. I believe the price is $500.00 for a shaft.
I had some rod about 10 years ago and got $100.00 each for a ferrule. Wish I had bought more when it was available would be a gold mine now.
When you take thin sheets of material and glue them together to make a thick material, it's called laminating. How can the old micarta with layers of paper NOT be considered lamination?
Says on Wikipedia (I realize this is not the best source) that :
"Micarta is a trademark of Norplex-Micarta industrial high pressure laminates and refers to a composite of linen, canvas, paper, fiberglass, carbon fiber or other fabric in a thermosetting plastic, originally used in electrical and decorative applications. Micarta was developed by George Westinghouse at least as early as 1910 using phenolic resins invented by Dr. Leo Baekeland."
Doesn't that indicate that it is laminate and phenolic? or is this referring to a different version/make of Micarta? Maybe he meant that they didn't add a clear sheet of plastic to the outside of the Micarta, thus not "laminated"?
When the "glue" is made from a phenol+aldehyde compound, isn't the result considered "phenolic"?
That describes the resin. "Laminate" describes the method.
As I said, I was told by the Product Manager of Micarta at Whestinghouse.
If you question his termenology, you need to ask him.
I'm thinking he was a tad more familiar with Micarta than Mr. Welch. Atlas
processes plastics - they don't make them.
Dale
Whestinghouse used the trademark name "Micarta" for all its industrial
plastics, most of which were phenolics, most of which were lamminated.
Most, not all. The material so prized by knifemakers and cuemakers was
something else. When it was gone, other versions with similar appearance
were used.
Dale
Hi Dale,
There are a lot of people that have heard things and pass on urban legend. You can talk until you are blue in the face, promote a honest argument with facts, details and even providence but they will still think they are right because of a brainwashing effect and they have some kind of skin in the game.
Stubbornness produces a "know it all arrogance" and usually is a result of lack of perspective and is not exclusively limited to one being stupid, just the lack of an open mind or one who's head is too big for their hat.
A mind is like a parachute, it never works unless it is open.
Take everything you hear with and grain of salt, do your homework and always be prepared to let all cards fall where they fall and accept truth at all costs. This will lead to enlightenment in any discipline or endeavor.
I for one am getting 150.00 for one of my Micarta Ferrule installs but this is a limited and diminishing resource. As I said in my post, I have now made them unavailable from a repair/install perspective and will only put them on special big cues I build. The net effect is exclusivity as I have the holy grail for those you have knowledge and awareness. I don't intend to hold them up as a money maker but have taken a tack whereby I can offer them for free ( no added charge for them ) to special customers who buy my big cues. It is like throwing in the floor mats for free when you buy a new car. When someone pays high dollar for a cue they deserve the little extras.
JMO,
Rick
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You may have been able to obtain it in rod form, but the Micarta I have is in block/sheet form. Same material, though.
Josh
Closed mind, arrogance, even stupidity have been tossed around in this thread because somebody has the wrong micarta but wants people to think it's the real deal in a self serving infomercial.
Here's a pic of a very, very old South West shaft that is equipped with the REAL micarta. Regardless of what anybody anywhere says about how it's made or who made it, this is the stuff that has always been known by builders to be Westinghouse micarta, and is the stuff that is commanding high dollar today from the builders who know what it is. I don't care who made it, or what the manufacturer says about it, this is the stuff we all know to be Westinghouse micarta. And clearly, as the picture shows, it's laminated paper. This is what SW has stashed away, what Richard Harris puts on all of his cues, and what you see on many of the older custom cues.
Again, this is the stuff. I don't care about it, personally, because I don't like it & have no intentions of selling it. But I do recognize it for what it is because I have seen it & been around it for over a decade. Every established & known builder that I know, recognizes this as Westinghouse micarta. Everything else, no matter how much people argue, is NOT the same nor worth what this is. Call it arrogant stupidity know it all, all you like, but it is what it is. This is the real stuff. And anybody can see how it's made. It's laminated.
Here's a pic of a very, very old South West shaft that is equipped with the REAL micarta. Regardless of what anybody anywhere says about how it's made or who made it, this is the stuff that has always been known by builders to be Westinghouse micarta, and is the stuff that is commanding high dollar today from the builders who know what it is. I don't care who made it, or what the manufacturer says about it, this is the stuff we all know to be Westinghouse micarta. And clearly, as the picture shows, it's laminated paper. This is what SW has stashed away, what Richard Harris puts on all of his cues, and what you see on many of the older custom cues.
Again, this is the stuff. I don't care about it, personally, because I don't like it & have no intentions of selling it. But I do recognize it for what it is because I have seen it & been around it for over a decade. Every established & known builder that I know, recognizes this as Westinghouse micarta. Everything else, no matter how much people argue, is NOT the same nor worth what this is. Call it arrogant stupidity know it all, all you like, but it is what it is. This is the real stuff. And anybody can see how it's made. It's laminated.
Eric,
You are absolutely right about that fact as your pic shows. DPK built a custom order cue for me in 1983 and I ordered the same material that you show on that Franklin SW. The material Runde used on his Schons was the same thing.
The reason GE asbestos micarta rod has a higher hardness and density is because the aggregate paper was wound on a spiral mandrel and not just laminated in a press. The structural cross section is all together different and produces a different type of cross hatch pattern that is random to each piece cut. The engineering structure is more complex as the reinforcement is not all on one linear plane.
You are right, there is only one Westinghouse Micarta that is part of cue making history but there are other asbestos micarta products that are out there and have been used by other HOF Cue Makers. My piece was the same material Bert Schrager used in the 70s. That is a fact.
I guess the question gravitates to "Which one has the better hit effect to a cue shaft". That is subjective and would take a panel of experts to disseminate.
Here are the numbers regarding ferrule hardness. These number do not indicate the ring tone or hit frequency. Thats where you would need a panel of experts to qualify.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=252463&highlight=ferrule+hardness+test
Rick
Fresh cut ferrules cut from a spiral wound GE rod. Unpolished
These ferrules on the cue shafts are oversized and were cut on a saw machine while taper the shaft. Notice how it looks a little yellower from the burnishing of the saw blade's effect. It gets a little yellower when sanded up to 2000 grit and pollished but is never as yellow as the Westinghouse because it is a different formula.
You are absolutely right about that fact as your pic shows. DPK built a custom order cue for me in 1983 and I ordered the same material that you show on that Franklin SW. The material Runde used on his Schons was the same thing.
The reason GE asbestos micarta rod has a higher hardness and density is because the aggregate paper was wound on a spiral mandrel and not just laminated in a press. The structural cross section is all together different and produces a different type of cross hatch pattern that is random to each piece cut. The engineering structure is more complex as the reinforcement is not all on one linear plane.
You are right, there is only one Westinghouse Micarta that is part of cue making history but there are other asbestos micarta products that are out there and have been used by other HOF Cue Makers. My piece was the same material Bert Schrager used in the 70s. That is a fact.
I guess the question gravitates to "Which one has the better hit effect to a cue shaft". That is subjective and would take a panel of experts to disseminate.
Here are the numbers regarding ferrule hardness. These number do not indicate the ring tone or hit frequency. Thats where you would need a panel of experts to qualify.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=252463&highlight=ferrule+hardness+test
Rick
Fresh cut ferrules cut from a spiral wound GE rod. Unpolished
These ferrules on the cue shafts are oversized and were cut on a saw machine while taper the shaft. Notice how it looks a little yellower from the burnishing of the saw blade's effect. It gets a little yellower when sanded up to 2000 grit and pollished but is never as yellow as the Westinghouse because it is a different formula.
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You are correct, Eric. That is the same material I have; and the same information I have come to know is correct.
Josh
Josh
Most people do know it. Unfortunately, some do not. Unfortunately even more so, there are people capitalizing on the confusion and selling other materials as "old micarta" and charging appropriate prices that the real stuff brings. It's a rip-off. It's a rip-off not because of the quality of the material they're selling, but because it misleads the buyer into paying for something they are not getting.
My posts were to clarify that there's only one. Regardless of how good another material is, how old it is, where it came from, if it's not the stuff known as "westinghouse micarta" or "the old micarta" then it shouldn't be sold as such to unsuspecting buyers. A material should be sold as what it is and described as it is, then any price you want can be put on it & it's nobody's business. But when there's intentional misinformation, it's wrong.
Are you a chemical engineer now? You are not qualified to make statements like that, but I will defend your right to show the world how wet you are behind the ears, Cue Brat.:kma: I will ignore the rip off statements as they have no basis and are coming from your angry side.
BTW, remember what I told you about what Ralf Kramden said. " be nice to everybody because you will meet the same people on the way up as you do on the way down" That is very good advice, especially in your case. You should be practicing damage control not feeding fires as you seem to like to do. Get over yourself and mind your own business. Your not that bright!
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Really? Did I strike a nerve? Are you out to rob folks, glorify your product in order to drive price up & fool them? Because that's what's been going on with numerous sellers over a period of several years now. People are selling something else as "old micarta" and charging what the legitimate stuff actually costs. That's what I referenced. If it hit home with you, then it's on you & you can deal with it. I was very general about what I said, but for some reason you feel it's all about you.
This is another perfect example of your vendetta. I'm not even sure why. I think I pissed you off once because I told you I wouldn't play kiss ass games. That's when you were kissing my ass the way you kiss Joey's ass now, and it annoyed me. Ever since then, you've been an ass, following me around trying to discredit or dig some kind of make believe dirt to show everybody how much of a screw-up I am. Your man crush is getting a bit disturbing at this point. Your flirting is turning in to harassment. I know i'm a strapping young lad, and I can understand why a sicko old man would be tempted to stalk me, but for real it's going too far.
Anyone have a couple if micarta ferrules for sale?
I wish I had more.
I just made two shafts with customer supplied micarta.
Such a beautiful hit.
I love it with a milk dud or old Kamui MS.
They just have the blend I love.
I swear it shoots straighter but it could be mental.
What kind of micarta did you use?
