Why I never bought one....

Let me say this, I dont know anything about the second generation Predator shafts, but I have seen three first generation shafts like this. Two were regular 314 shafts, one broke about an inch below the ferrule, the other one broke at the ferrule. The third was my BK2 that the ferrule and what you might call a tenon shattered with use. All 3 were off center.
I also cant begin to tell you how many retipping jobs I have done over the years and saw off centered tenons on uncapped ferruled cues. Then there are the capped ferrules on cues like Viking that I cut the "cap" off because of the air gap that is usually in there.... and a large portion of those are off centered too. Have a Viking you want to play better, cut about an 1/8 off the end of the ferrule, you will kill the dead space and improve the hit.... and you will probably find an off center tenon.
Its not that uncommon in mass produced shafts.
Chuck
 
After thinking abut this a while, I can see this problem happening from drifting using a long thin drill bit. It would be inexcusable for the hole to be off center right at the tip of the shaft, but with the mix of glue and wood at the center having changing densities, I can see how the bit could wander off.

A few things that can also contribute to this would be a less than perfectly sharp drill bit, or perhaps drilling the hole too quickly, or an over heated drill bit all of which may cause the drill bit to flex in the direction of least resistance as it's cutting through the material.

Having said that, I'm still wondering how many shafts were cut like this before one that was off center was found and what was it that led up to someone deciding to start chopping up cues?
 
OB1s and Predators are supposed to flex more. Thats the concept. The shaft deflects not the cue ball. I've had a 314 and now a 314 2 and swear by them as well as many pros. My friend questioned its consistency and accuracy forever dogging it until Raphael Martinez picked it up and started firing balls in with all kinds of english and commented bout how nice the cue played. Guess it was the indian not the arrow.

As far as the craftsmanship problem. Ive seen several people who have cut off the ferrels and joints off of predators and have never seen that issue with them nor did they look like that. Can't speak for the X shaft.
 
If it was center drilled before the act of turning, a warped shaft could cause this. It would also explain why the pie pieces are not joined in the center of the cue.
 
T said:
After thinking abut this a while, I can see this problem happening from drifting using a long thin drill bit. It would be inexcusable for the hole to be off center right at the tip of the shaft, but with the mix of glue and wood at the center having changing densities, I can see how the bit could wander off.

A few things that can also contribute to this would be a less than perfectly sharp drill bit, or perhaps drilling the hole too quickly, or an over heated drill bit all of which may cause the drill bit to flex in the direction of least resistance as it's cutting through the material.

Having said that, I'm still wondering how many shafts were cut like this before one that was off center was found and what was it that led up to someone deciding to start chopping up cues?
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Exactly, that is why I reminded you folks that these are high-volume production shafts.

Quite a number of "booboos" can happen in producing wood-based products of this dimension and that is why the care and patience from cue craftsmen. Higher quality cues will most likely come from knowledgable, patient and detail-oriented hands-on craftsmen.

PistolPat, I understand your concern. What it is is about the "radial consistency" claim. This claim does fly out the window with the examples you've shown. What percentage of the products with this defect, who knows?

Aside from doing tests on different product configuration I also do tests on unknowing users. From beginners to World Championship level users. Performance is all about what the user believes in.

Example:
A world caliber player comes to me complaining about the balance and weight of his cue, being that it's a tad light and forward balanced aside from the cue's need to have its joint faces refaced to straighten. Other top caliber players were here too at the time so they were just chatting away as I was working on his cue so all he sees is me just moving about from working on my lathe and then on my cue straightness checker station. And finally seeing me tighten the weight bolt of his cue.

I finally hand him the cue and he asked me about the weight and balance. I said it's fine and to go check it out for himself. He does and exclaimed that it now feels perfect. The other guys, too, tried it out and agreed. Well, he's been winning a much higher percentage of his money games since then so I guess it all worked out for the better.

Guess what, the cue balance and weight is fine. Same weight bolt.:wink:
 
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@T If you start noticing a crack/s (delamination) on a 314 (or any bored end shaft) and its just on 1 side instead of opposing sides I can bet that the bore is off-centered. A ring breaks in two spots unless there's a weaker spot on the wall.
 
Mine's in the Center

Okay, I just cut my first generation 314 shaft off about 3" below the ferrule (cracked) and the hole is dead center for what it's worth.
 
shinyballs said:
Okay, I just cut my first generation 314 shaft off about 3" below the ferrule (cracked) and the hole is dead center for what it's worth.
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Ouch, ferrules are replaced free if the diameter is above 12.25mm so I hope you didn't cut your shaft in half just to see if the hole is off-center or not. Either way, thank you for posting the result I am sure you will be asked for pictures to back it up.
 
bandido said:
@T If you start noticing a crack/s (delamination) on a 314 (or any bored end shaft) and its just on 1 side instead of opposing sides I can bet that the bore is off-centered. A ring breaks in two spots unless there's a weaker spot on the wall.
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Bingo!
This is what caused the 3 shaft failures that I have seen, the wall was too thin on one side and it took just the right amount of force, at just the right spot and SNAP CRACKLE POP.
Chuck
 
Well, at least you've confirmed that you've got a good shaft.
Or at least, it was. Ooops.
 
I don't understand why many of the posters in this thread are questioning the original poster's pictures. A few other posters have said they also have seen this.

And, as also mentioned, this type of "off center defect" happens in LOTS of cues. As a repairman, I've seen it on countless ferrule and tenons. I'd also suspect it happens at the A joint bolt, although I have not taken a cue apart there myself. The most likely explanation for the problem, especially in the case of the off center tenon, is wood movement after these features are machined into the cue.

I personally have cut open probably 3 predator shafts over the years. I was actually amazed that the shafts I cut open seemed dead nuts in the center, including where the pie laminations met.

For the poster who said there is no way for manufacturers to check against this, that is incorrect. Statistical process control is used at many manufacturing facilities. The premise is you check a sample of shafts, lets say one per hour, and you can then accurately see what percentage of shafts do not meet the attributes you established, and what percentage of shafts do. Analyzing this data will show you if there is in fact a problem, and if the problem is due to a special cause that can be repaired (such as a broken drill bit), or a common cause that is not easy to track down.

Not throwing stones but many billiard related companies are started and managed by pool players. These people don't necessarily have a manufacturing or engineering background to understand or even know such methods exist.

All that said, I've been using Predator products for 10 years. Sure, I've had my share of broken shafts. And so what if some might be defective on the inside. This can easily be true of many cues. Who is going to have the balls to cut open a $1000 custom cue to see what is inside it?
 
Maybe it's just me but I'm wondering why the hole in the shaft in the first place. Stupid me thought that shafts were one piece of wood all these years. Or is that just the original shafts that came with the cue? All I can say is that you're never too old to learn. :o
 
Fuji-whopper said:
Ouch, ferrules are replaced free if the diameter is above 12.25mm so I hope you didn't cut your shaft in half just to see if the hole is off-center or not. Either way, thank you for posting the result I am sure you will be asked for pictures to back it up.
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The diameter wasn't above 12.25 and it was a very old worn shaft. It was my 1st predator shaft and I didn't exactly take care of my equipment back then. No worries. I can post pictures if anyone is interested, but not tonight!
 
Like I said before, unless they changed manufacturing steps the hole in the front end is the very last thing that is done to the shaft before a ferrule is put on. That means there are no more passes made on the shaft to permit an off center hole by turning the shaft after the hole is made.

This is all done on a slide lathe with a drill bit only used to make the pilot hole then a boring bar is used to widen the hole in two stages, then the hole is lined with a resin to keep moisture out and a foam used to dampen sound. Again I am only citing what I learned from working there for years and their techniques might have changed (but I doubt it) since then.

For one, the hole in the front end of a Predator shaft isn't as large as what is pictured, if you look up their patent you can find out exactly how large the hole is supposed to be. Plus the hole pictured is obviously chamfered after the fact, how did that happen?

I find it very interesting that we are looking at two year old pictures for the "first time" here on the forums, it would be great to see what other pictures were taken at the same time these were.
 
jay helfert said:
Maybe it's just me but I'm wondering why the hole in the shaft in the first place. Stupid me thought that shafts were one piece of wood all these years. Or is that just the original shafts that came with the cue? All I can say is that you're never too old to learn. :o
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That is how a Predator shaft works as far as reducing cue ball squirt..... they lower the end mass/weight of the shaft by hollowing it out and putting a very thin lightweight ferrule on the shaft. The lighter, flexible end of the shaft pushes out of the way on contact, instead of the cue ball pushing off line.
Make sense now why they feel like they have a hollow hit? ;)
Chuck
 
Fuji-whopper said:
Plus the hole pictured is obviously chamfered after the fact, how did that happen?

.
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I'm guessing that the edge was deburred with a larger diameter drill bit to clearly show the off-centeredness of the hole.
 
Jay, the predators are drilled at the end to reduce the weight of the tip end of the shaft - reduced weight at the tip equals less deflection. Not that that is necessarily a good thing...
 
bandido said:
I'm guessing that the edge was deburred with a larger diameter drill bit to clearly show the off-centeredness of the hole.
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If you look really closely you can see that the angle of the chamfer isn't consistent or clean, it might have been done after the fact but why, that hole is huge.

Anyone who has seen the interior of the front end of a Predator shaft a few times knows that THAT hole is huge, which is why I personally couldn't recognize if that was the joint or tenon end of the shaft.
 
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eyesjr said:
Jay, the predators are drilled at the end to reduce the weight of the tip end of the shaft - reduced weight at the tip equals less deflection. Not that that is necessarily a good thing...
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yea i didnt think jay helfert knew all of that ;)
 
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