Women At The US Opem...maybe
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
It is sexist to limit the field to male players. Period. Is it sexist for the WPBA to limit the womens open to women? Hell yes! But that's their business. Two wrongs don't make a right. If it's called the Open then it ought to be open.
This ain't rocket science. There is no defense for keeping women out. None. Zilch. Squat. :groucho:
This ain't rocket science. There is no defense for keeping women out. None. Zilch. Squat. :groucho:
Can I pick it out?
Pretty neat thread. No idea which way to go on it.
It's true that if you open the gates one way, people will be arguing they should be opened the other. But you can always just ignore those people. I don't think anyone would boycott. If they DID open up women's events to men, it seems clear that men would just dominate both fields.
In the short run it would probably be good for ticket sales and make good TV. But in the long run? What if women enter the US open and never come closer than the top 16 for 10 years straight? Or what if they don't enter because they feel it's just donating? Like 16 women enter in a field of 240 men and they all get crushed? How depressing would that be?
Some seem to be taking the "it's a violation of the english language" route. Like if it's called the US open it HAS to be open to all. But I think the US Open gets its name from the golf tournament of the same name, and the intention never was to make a truly open tournament. And we don't limit it to just US players though I've heard grumbling on here that we should. In any case we're not gonna make major changes to a tournament just to accomodate the name that was chosen for it, and we're not gonna change a history-rich well-known name just to make it more accurate.
It looks like the golf US open technically allows women if they qualify, but I don't know if a woman has ever played in one, much less placed.
Basically... we COULD change this rule, but the net result might be completely invisible. There might be almost no women, and the few who are there don't make a splash.
Or maybe not? We're talking a game where the women can at least come within spitting distance (the physical differences aren't as big as in golf, or... say, the NBA) and it's a notoriously lucky game. If Yu Ram can beat shane at 10 ball in a race to 10 then a woman reaching the finals is not mission impossible.
It's true that if you open the gates one way, people will be arguing they should be opened the other. But you can always just ignore those people. I don't think anyone would boycott. If they DID open up women's events to men, it seems clear that men would just dominate both fields.
In the short run it would probably be good for ticket sales and make good TV. But in the long run? What if women enter the US open and never come closer than the top 16 for 10 years straight? Or what if they don't enter because they feel it's just donating? Like 16 women enter in a field of 240 men and they all get crushed? How depressing would that be?
Some seem to be taking the "it's a violation of the english language" route. Like if it's called the US open it HAS to be open to all. But I think the US Open gets its name from the golf tournament of the same name, and the intention never was to make a truly open tournament. And we don't limit it to just US players though I've heard grumbling on here that we should. In any case we're not gonna make major changes to a tournament just to accomodate the name that was chosen for it, and we're not gonna change a history-rich well-known name just to make it more accurate.
It looks like the golf US open technically allows women if they qualify, but I don't know if a woman has ever played in one, much less placed.
Basically... we COULD change this rule, but the net result might be completely invisible. There might be almost no women, and the few who are there don't make a splash.
Or maybe not? We're talking a game where the women can at least come within spitting distance (the physical differences aren't as big as in golf, or... say, the NBA) and it's a notoriously lucky game. If Yu Ram can beat shane at 10 ball in a race to 10 then a woman reaching the finals is not mission impossible.
Hope your well Ms.CDLG,
Stay intouch,
yours,
eric
Doing awesome, Eric! Hope to see you at more events soon!
I posted a poll up on my site http://gailglazebrook.wordpress.com/ asking this very question and last night at league it was sort of a heated debate .... I understand where the boys are coming from ... why do the girls get a US Open where only women can play, but the boys have to share theirs? Hmm .. In a way, I felt they were right, a difficult acceptance given I think women and men playing together makes the sport stronger and more entertaining for the audience, but sexism in either direction is still wrong.
Then my teammate Borana brought up a really good point. She said, "Yeah, women have their own US Open, but it's invitational, thus it's not REALLY a US "OPEN." So now amateur girls are banned from playing in both!" So true!
Right now NEITHER of these "US Opens" are really "OPEN" tournaments at all. They both discriminate in one way or another.
Thus IMHO, The WPBA should change the title of the "WPBA US OPEN" to something more accurate. The WPBA should continue having women's only tourneys b/c it's currently one of the few US produced pool outlets we have broadcasting our sport. No one should hate on the WPBA and the women players for working together and successfully having a legitimate tour. It takes everyone compromising something at one point or another for the benefit of the tour. The men just aren't that selfless.
CDLG is right. If the men want their own tour, they need to break out of their cement blocks and work together on it. Tony was in a meeting once with all the pro men at the time and they were trying to get the men a unified tour. One of the pro men stood up and said, "Yeah, but how much money is going in my pocket!"
There's a distinction between looking out for the whole to benefit yourself and just looking out for yourself - the women seem to understand this.
And Barry's US OPEN, if they want to truly be a US OPEN should allow both men and women. To deny the opportunity for anyone to play because of sex or skill level contradicts the title, "US OPEN."
Then my teammate Borana brought up a really good point. She said, "Yeah, women have their own US Open, but it's invitational, thus it's not REALLY a US "OPEN." So now amateur girls are banned from playing in both!" So true!
Right now NEITHER of these "US Opens" are really "OPEN" tournaments at all. They both discriminate in one way or another.
Thus IMHO, The WPBA should change the title of the "WPBA US OPEN" to something more accurate. The WPBA should continue having women's only tourneys b/c it's currently one of the few US produced pool outlets we have broadcasting our sport. No one should hate on the WPBA and the women players for working together and successfully having a legitimate tour. It takes everyone compromising something at one point or another for the benefit of the tour. The men just aren't that selfless.
CDLG is right. If the men want their own tour, they need to break out of their cement blocks and work together on it. Tony was in a meeting once with all the pro men at the time and they were trying to get the men a unified tour. One of the pro men stood up and said, "Yeah, but how much money is going in my pocket!"
There's a distinction between looking out for the whole to benefit yourself and just looking out for yourself - the women seem to understand this.
And Barry's US OPEN, if they want to truly be a US OPEN should allow both men and women. To deny the opportunity for anyone to play because of sex or skill level contradicts the title, "US OPEN."
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I posted a poll up on my site http://gailglazebrook.wordpress.com/ asking this very question and last night at league it was sort of a heated debate .... I understand where the boys are coming from ... why do the girls get a US Open where only women can play, but the boys have to share theirs? Hmm .. In a way, I felt they were right, a difficult acceptance given I think women and men playing together makes the sport stronger and more entertaining for the audience, but sexism in either direction is still wrong.
Then my teammate Borana brought up a really good point. She said, "Yeah, women have their own US Open, but it's invitational, thus it's not REALLY a US "OPEN." So now amateur girls are banned from playing in both!" So true!
Right now NEITHER of these "US Opens" are really "OPEN" tournaments at all. They both discriminate in one way or another.
Thus IMHO, The WPBA should change the title of the "WPBA US OPEN" to something more accurate. The WPBA should continue having women's only tourneys b/c it's currently one of the few US produced pool outlets we have broadcasting our sport. No one should hate on the WPBA and the women players for working together and successfully having a legitimate tour. It takes everyone compromising something at one point or another for the benefit of the tour. The men just aren't that selfless.
CDLG is right. If the men want their own tour, they need to break out of their cement blocks and work together on it. Tony was in a meeting once with all the pro men at the time and they were trying to get the men a unified tour. One of the pro men stood up and said, "Yeah, but how much money is going in my pocket!"
There's a distinction between looking out for the whole to benefit yourself and just looking out for yourself - the women seem to understand this.
And Barry's US OPEN, if they want to truly be a US OPEN should allow both men and women. To deny the opportunity for anyone to play because of sex or skill level contradicts the title, "US OPEN."
Borana is right, it's not a true open. The WPBA Open is invite with a few qualifiers I believe. I said this a few years ago on here when I started a thread on "why not allow the women to play in the US Open". Of course I got blasted for it then. Now it looks like a BIG % is for it. Johnnyt
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Coming 'Round
We're just starting to realize that you're close to correct most of the time...I caught myself prior to indicating that you were right as everyone knows it is impossible for a pool player to be "right"...
We're just starting to realize that you're close to correct most of the time...I caught myself prior to indicating that you were right as everyone knows it is impossible for a pool player to be "right"...
Women and US Open
Just for everyone's info: I had this discussion with Barry about 18 months ago. I was trying to get a pro tour going (the result of the Desert Shootout not paying the players in April of 2008).
I was trying to work with several ongoing events and by adding additional money and direction, they could be used to form a 'Tour".
Barry and I talked several times and one of my conditions was that women be allowed to play. He was open to the discussion. I needed to get other events and venues to agree and Barry & I said we would talk after I saw how my other negotiations went.
Here is where it got REAL interesting!
I had talked to the WPBA at the BCA Expo held in Charlotte around June of 2008. After agreeing in principle, I went to Michigan City to have a meeting with Dawn Hopkins, Melissa Herndon, and a couple of others.
It was at this meeting that I was informed that the WPBA would NOT LET their members play in the proposed tour. I was told this was because of the APA sponsorship and my ownership of the BCAPL.
Even though this tour was not affiliated with the BCAPL. (How short sighted is the APA?????)
So there are other factors as to why the women have not played in some events. And they were told that I thought this tour would allow women to play in the US Open - and they did not care.
Since their new election, I am hopeful that the vision of the WPBA might be more open.
If there are any questions or comments, please feel free to contact Mark Griffin (markg@playcsipool.com) or 702-719-7665 (work).
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS
Just for everyone's info: I had this discussion with Barry about 18 months ago. I was trying to get a pro tour going (the result of the Desert Shootout not paying the players in April of 2008).
I was trying to work with several ongoing events and by adding additional money and direction, they could be used to form a 'Tour".
Barry and I talked several times and one of my conditions was that women be allowed to play. He was open to the discussion. I needed to get other events and venues to agree and Barry & I said we would talk after I saw how my other negotiations went.
Here is where it got REAL interesting!
I had talked to the WPBA at the BCA Expo held in Charlotte around June of 2008. After agreeing in principle, I went to Michigan City to have a meeting with Dawn Hopkins, Melissa Herndon, and a couple of others.
It was at this meeting that I was informed that the WPBA would NOT LET their members play in the proposed tour. I was told this was because of the APA sponsorship and my ownership of the BCAPL.
Even though this tour was not affiliated with the BCAPL. (How short sighted is the APA?????)
So there are other factors as to why the women have not played in some events. And they were told that I thought this tour would allow women to play in the US Open - and they did not care.
Since their new election, I am hopeful that the vision of the WPBA might be more open.
If there are any questions or comments, please feel free to contact Mark Griffin (markg@playcsipool.com) or 702-719-7665 (work).
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS
US OPEN 10-BALL is WPBA recognized
The women WILL be playing at the US OPEN 10-BALL. (played in May at the Riviera).
We have invited the top 10 - and are awaiting some of their responses. So far we have committments from some of the top players - and a lot of interest from overseas and WPBA player's ranked outside of the top 10.
I feel that women should be allowed in all events - unless they have an identical women only event. Which often times does not exist. This will raise the level of play for everyone.
I will state the I have heard that Jeanette Lee will NOT be there - I believe the APA will not allow her to compete in any venue where there is BCAPL presence. (Even though this is a CSI event).
Only the APA can think this small. (I keep bringing this up to show people that the APA is NOT for pool - they are only for themselves!) This is in response to them 'blackmailing' the vote for the new WPBA board.
If you have any questions or comments, contact markg@playcsipool.com or 702-719-7665.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL- NCS
The women WILL be playing at the US OPEN 10-BALL. (played in May at the Riviera).
We have invited the top 10 - and are awaiting some of their responses. So far we have committments from some of the top players - and a lot of interest from overseas and WPBA player's ranked outside of the top 10.
I feel that women should be allowed in all events - unless they have an identical women only event. Which often times does not exist. This will raise the level of play for everyone.
I will state the I have heard that Jeanette Lee will NOT be there - I believe the APA will not allow her to compete in any venue where there is BCAPL presence. (Even though this is a CSI event).
Only the APA can think this small. (I keep bringing this up to show people that the APA is NOT for pool - they are only for themselves!) This is in response to them 'blackmailing' the vote for the new WPBA board.
If you have any questions or comments, contact markg@playcsipool.com or 702-719-7665.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL- NCS
..........
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And I can guarantee you that a woman will win it if that bet is actually gotten down with someone capable of paying it off.
Come on. We're talking POOL players here.
Can you say ummmm.. Mike Lebron vs. Buddy Hall, Challenge of Champions - 1991?
If a pool player gets enough odds, and the bet is big enough, they are always gonna win, no matter who (or how many people) they have to beat.
Russ
Attachments
Not to pick on Tommy Kennedy and Reed Pierce and others but there have been many US Open winners who didn't do much of anything else in the pool world.
Winning one event that is filled mostly with players who have NO SHOT is not a good predictor of how well a person will do in a consistent tour.
The best woman in the WPBA is the BEST of the B-league. That doesn't make her as good as the best in the A-league.
So if she or the best wheelchair player manages to go deep in the OPEN - say top 16 then you think that they should be BRANDED as top professional players and therefore banned from participating in their own leagues? Even though the "men" have no tour for them to play on and even though they would likely be middle of the pack on a pro tour if there even was one?
This would be the equivalent of pool purgatory.
That completely failed to answer the question, but I will address this part anyways. I DID acknowledge that women are discriminated against. YOU failed at reading and keep asserting that reverse discrimination is a valid answer to discrimination. IT IS NOT.
I never said they are treated equally, you assumed that I did. I contend that in order for women to become truly equal, they have to give up some of the priveleges that they gain from being treated unequally. People like you on the other hand would like them to be treated BETTER than men. That is not right.
Okay, you contend that...Now back it up with an argument not filled with double standards or logical fallacies.
It's not a barrier. The men don't have an opportunity to join the WPBA, so a woman giving up the right to play in the WPBA is not a barrier. It might hurt their income, but if they had a penis, or were treated equally, they wouldn't have had that income in the first place.
Like I said before, but you probably failed to read, in the extremely rare event that they do not do well in mens pool after the open, they should be able to return after a certain amount of time. I don't think anybody would complain about that.
There was a WPBA US Open last year. I don't know about this year because it seems to be a spartan scheduel for the WPBA, but they do usually have opens.
They are sometimes allowed into men's events when there is no equivalent women's event. US Open 10 ball for example. For men's invitational events, I think it would be more fair to invite players based on skill. The women are not currently at a level where they would have enough skill to be a good candidate for say the Mosconi Cup.
Why should a 30+ year old event change its name for something petty like that?
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Gary...Interesting that you posted Bill Clearwater's daughter. Bill was a world champion many times between 1895-1915. Bill was also a distant relative to my mentor Jack White...also from Pittsburgh. :grin-square:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com