SVB Get's Bad Rap Not Winning Worlds
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
No one can knock him for not winning the WPC but has he won any decent tournament outside the US/Canada? He is definitely World Class but without an international title or two, history will not treat him that way. Especially pool history as written outside the USA.
If a "world beater" never manages to beat the world in a true decked out international field in their entire career it is definitely going to change the way that person's legacy is seen 20+ years after their career has ended though.
Guys like Mosconi, Lassiter, and Earl will be remembered decades after their career has ended because of their dominance on the world stage at the top of the game. Guys who were great, but never managed to dominate the peak of competition during their career end up as side notes to the greats.
SVB is atm simply not getting it done like some of his peers. While he does great in long set challenge matches guys like Appleton, Wu, and others are winning the major international events and it is them that will ultimately be remembered first and foremost by the future generations who are born after SVB's prime has long since passed.
Am I out of line in saying this, but hasn't Shane also regularly beaten the same players that have won WPA Championships that came to play in the USA based tournaments he's won? I'm sure outside the USA there are monster players that don't make it here to play but should that be held against him with the Monsters he does mow over. If all that's being referenced here is that he doesn't have a world title then I get it but I wouldn't count him out for that in the future.
Good shooting to you,
Kevin
LOL.....just saw Jaden writing the same thing...great minds think a like!
Good shooting to you,
Kevin
LOL.....just saw Jaden writing the same thing...great minds think a like!
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Ultimately though Buddy Hall will not be the first person mentioned from his generation when people think of the all time greats, Earl will be that guy because of his titles being the thing that creates legacy, not how dominant a guy was as a gambler. The people who have seen Hall gamble and seen the smooth stroke will eventually pass away and all that will then exist are hear-say stories with 1 or more degrees of separation and a few videos that do not show Hall as the supreme powerhouse he is often said to have been.
Sigel will be remembered more then most as well because of how many major events he actually won, Parica might have been a beast of a gambler but 50 years from now a lot more people on AZB2063 will mention Sigel when talking about the old school greats, not Parica who will be lucky to be mentioned much at all by a scant few people who have heard some stories about one of the first Filipino players to come to America who was supposedly a killer gambler.
SVB needs to win some events if he wants to be mentioned in the same breath as Appleton and Wu 50 years from now instead of being mentioned as an afterthought on those threads if at all.
Shane hasn't figured out a system for traveling to other countries and dealing with:
Time difference
Language difference
Food difference
Culture difference
Hearing difficulties
I have traveled all over the world and it can be daunting when you don't speak the language and can't get a good meal. I have mentioned to him he should get a guide from here on AZ when he goes to other countries to help out with some of the differences. I am sure there are some good people who post here that could help him out greatly.
It seems to me European players are much more adept at traveling to other countries and fitting in pretty well. As Shane gets more used to this type of travel I think his results will improve. It is amazing to me when I see him play in the U.S. and elsewhere how much of a difference there is in his game. It doesn't seem to me the level of play is that much higher elsewhere, he just needs to be able to play his game in other countries to start winning more.
The bottom line is everyone plays better when they are comfortable, the trick is finding comfort all over the world.
Time difference
Language difference
Food difference
Culture difference
Hearing difficulties
I have traveled all over the world and it can be daunting when you don't speak the language and can't get a good meal. I have mentioned to him he should get a guide from here on AZ when he goes to other countries to help out with some of the differences. I am sure there are some good people who post here that could help him out greatly.
It seems to me European players are much more adept at traveling to other countries and fitting in pretty well. As Shane gets more used to this type of travel I think his results will improve. It is amazing to me when I see him play in the U.S. and elsewhere how much of a difference there is in his game. It doesn't seem to me the level of play is that much higher elsewhere, he just needs to be able to play his game in other countries to start winning more.
The bottom line is everyone plays better when they are comfortable, the trick is finding comfort all over the world.
How many major titles do you think Federer would have won if they played only 1 set matches?
How many Majors do you think Tiger or Jack would have won if they played only 18 hole tournaments?
In cue sports:
How many snooker titles would Stephen Hendry have won if they played races to 3 or 4?
My point is, the fields are just too tough to distinguish who the best players are in such short races. Certainly, whoever wins these tournaments has to be playing great to win. But you could be the best player of all time and all the stars would still have to align to win one of these tournaments. The races just aren't long enough in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for top pros that this is just the way it is.
How many Majors do you think Tiger or Jack would have won if they played only 18 hole tournaments?
In cue sports:
How many snooker titles would Stephen Hendry have won if they played races to 3 or 4?
My point is, the fields are just too tough to distinguish who the best players are in such short races. Certainly, whoever wins these tournaments has to be playing great to win. But you could be the best player of all time and all the stars would still have to align to win one of these tournaments. The races just aren't long enough in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for top pros that this is just the way it is.
Yeah I do think he is absolutely. I was just adding to that by saying that any world elite player's tournament resume should probably include a world championship at some point.
Cmon JT- There were no status events outside of the Country in Buddy's time.
And one might as well add on such easy equipment where every one of the top 50-100 players can run out an open rack with a huge success rate after a successful break and an open shot.
If the tables were tough enough the length of the races would be less of an issue. Race to 11 or 13 on a 10 foot table with 4 inch pockets would see the best player winning a significant majority of their matches.
Plus, 9-ball is a broken game with a gimmicky break and this whole world title is a pretty big crap shoot.
Not entirely true Chris. Shane is definitely a great player and has the respect of his peers, but the reality is that he has not won on the International stage as yet. At least not a World tournament. No one knows more than Shane that to be considered as one of the great players of his generation he needs to win a "Major." Winning the U.S. Open is a great achievement but winning a world title even more so.
It's like a golfer who wins The Players Championship, The Memorial and twenty other tournaments. If he never wins a major, like Lee Westwood, Davis Love or Colin Montgomerie they will never be considered one of the game's greats.
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I would like to bet on Shane if he plays anybody in the world championships or anybody on the planet a long set. But in a tournament with a 100 guys and a bunch of them play almost as good as Shane then it's a long shot for Shane to win a bunch of races to 11. It's like a poker tournament really. He has to win a bunch of coin flips where he has 55-60% the best of it.
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.
Good post and very true IMO. Johnnyt
Donny, there's a reason Shane is usually the only American out there chasing these major international titles and it's not just about the money. I may not know as much about pool as you, since I'm a relative newcomer to the game, but I do know Shane very well. He WANTS to be a World Champion more than anything! He wants to add World Champion to his resume.
Arguably the TAR-style races to 100 are a better test, but tournaments and trophies
are what get hyped and remembered, even if the race is less fair.
It would be interesting to see how many of these matches are lost by someone
who effectively did nothing wrong... no misses, no whiffed kicks, etc.
Basically do the accustats on them. I think both players will get their chances
with race to 11 and alternating break. I don't see a lot of 11-10 scores.
Can't really knock shane for a lack of a 'world' title, because IMO the
us open has enough foreign players to be considered one.
If the stats show he dogs it after flying thousands of miles,
that doesn't mean he's not a great player... just not great at handling jetlag, etc.
Shane beat a guy I never heard of but is now up against Biado.
US Open 8 ball rematch.
PS to Celtic: You really feel the cream doesn't rise to the top in this format?
It's alternate break. The break is a specific skilled shot, like a spot shot (or if you want, a trick shot).
You can argue it's "too easy" or whatever. OK, fine.
But that just means when it's your turn to break, you have no excuse to miss the shot.
You must make the ball and if you didn't, you can't cry that it was bad luck.
So you should make something, not scratch, and control the 1 or at least be at the table
when the dust settles. No excuses in this format.
are what get hyped and remembered, even if the race is less fair.
It would be interesting to see how many of these matches are lost by someone
who effectively did nothing wrong... no misses, no whiffed kicks, etc.
Basically do the accustats on them. I think both players will get their chances
with race to 11 and alternating break. I don't see a lot of 11-10 scores.
Can't really knock shane for a lack of a 'world' title, because IMO the
us open has enough foreign players to be considered one.
If the stats show he dogs it after flying thousands of miles,
that doesn't mean he's not a great player... just not great at handling jetlag, etc.
Shane beat a guy I never heard of but is now up against Biado.
US Open 8 ball rematch.
PS to Celtic: You really feel the cream doesn't rise to the top in this format?
It's alternate break. The break is a specific skilled shot, like a spot shot (or if you want, a trick shot).
You can argue it's "too easy" or whatever. OK, fine.
But that just means when it's your turn to break, you have no excuse to miss the shot.
You must make the ball and if you didn't, you can't cry that it was bad luck.
So you should make something, not scratch, and control the 1 or at least be at the table
when the dust settles. No excuses in this format.
That's great for people in this generation, but when you and SVB and all the rest of us are dead and buried no one is going to remember how good his break was or how much he dominated in long sets, they will look at the stats and numbers of major events he won, mostly on the world stage, and they will find him lacking in that one most important thing.
As Jay said, if you don't win the true majors you are not going to go down in history as one of those key players that defined their generation.
At the end of the day some people become the Moe Norman of a game while the others become Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus. Moe almost became the best golfer that no one has ever heard of to play the game.