Article by Badi Nazhat

[Island Drive]

As for the first paragraph, I had direct in/office involvement with the BCA All American Tour, my annual budget was $46,000. I figured a way to cut that in half, and develop a feeder/player/rating system for those trying to get to the next level and most importantly ''increase play'' and increase BCA room membership as a prequalification process. Ironically half of that money went to full page color ads in two different Billiard Magazines to let the industry and players know of the up/coming events. If one looks at who was on the board at the time, it becomes Very clear Why. I wanted to Guarantee $1,000 added events to BCA host room members that got on board. All the room members had to do was show they did local advertising of there up and coming event, and prove that it had done its job in paying out their players. Quote "oh no, we can't do that''. There was a Huge conflict of interest when one realizes WHY.

 

[Hungarian]

No shit, I thought for a second CJ was black, large and italicized and Cleary was red with new comments and blue with counterpoints.

But it's all CJ answering his own original questions and counterpointing his answers with more questions and comments..

Every time you post with different sizes and colors, my mind turns into mash potatoes and I skip it. Can you please, from now on, try to type like a normal human so I'll actually feel like reading?

 

[jburkm002]

Kinda sounds like politics. CJ is the Democrat and all the Republicans want to do is ridicule his plan, without giving an alternative to the plan. So if you don't like his plan. Be productive and give an alternative. Ridicule is not an alternative. I have no idea where Obamacare is headed. If it works, some people will have health insurance for the first time in their lives. They won't be dropped for pre existing conditions. If it doesn't work Republicans will be happy and say I told you so. Yet people who work just as hard as others will go back to no health care and being dropped for pre existing conditions.

 

[kvinbrwr]

No shit, I thought for a second CJ was black, large and italicized and Cleary was red with new comments and blue with counterpoints.

But it's all CJ answering his own original questions and counterpointing his answers with more questions and comments..

Perhaps he is interacting with the one AZ member he respects.

 

[RedEyeJedi]

Kinda sounds like politics. CJ is the Democrat and all the Republicans want to do is ridicule his plan, without giving an alternative to the plan. So if you don't like his plan. Be productive and give an alternative. Ridicule is not an alternative. I have no idea where Obamacare is headed. If it works, some people will have health insurance for the first time in their lives. They won't be dropped for pre existing conditions. If it doesn't work Republicans will be happy and say I told you so. Yet people who work just as hard as others will go back to no health care and being dropped for pre existing conditions.

.... :thud:

 

[Ghosst]

80% of the players that go to any of these "Pro Tournaments" LOSE MONEY. This isn't a job, it's something else. Then, after they pay their own expenses and support the event to the best of their ability they are blamed for the event not being successful. Then when they ask the promoter what "success" means to them they get nothing.

If I sold you a lottery ticket that would cost you 90% of your savings and you didn't win would it be my fault for selling it to you, or yours for taking the gamble?

I do understand that bb was a better choice financially. But there was no need to thumb their noses at every event promoter, call them names, or complain to fans for not supporting an organization that had its staff insult them. Honestly, if I was in a pro's position, I wouldn't attend or enter the bigger tournaments. Not because I think there is a secret conspiracy to steal from the players, not because I think promoters are making money hand over fist. Simply because the risk is not worth the reward.

If a promoter asked me why I didn't attend or enter I would tell them without the threatening, without the disrespect. Honestly how hard is it to say it?

Mark, I enjoy your events thoroughly. I am always treated with respect by your staff and the people in attendance. The facilities are always top notch and whenever there are problems I know you will do anything needed to correct the issues. Unfortunately I just can't afford to attend this year as the payout structure simply doesn't reach deep enough to insure me a return. I realize these issues are beyond your control and I thank you for your continued support of all us.

Dang! I didn't bleed to death writing that! I trust Mark isn't offended. I stated the issue, supported it, and delivered a conclusion.

Or I could go the pro player route:

Hey Mark, you events suck. Screw your late fees, I'm too important for this shit. bb rocks buddy, you'll never understand.

 

[CreeDo]

Or I could go the pro player route:

Hey Mark, you events suck. Screw your late fees, I'm too important for this shit.
bb rocks buddy, you'll never understand.

I don't disagree with the importance of stating your rejections politely.
But do we have any evidence of ANY pro player acting even remotely like this?

For that matter, when someone holds a tournament, and you aren't specifically invited,
must a player really check in and explain his absence? Is it truly rude to simply not go?

Sometimes I get the vibe that tournament directors have been really sensitive about this and treating
player absences as a giant Fuсk You. They're assigning obligation where none really exists.
They've mentioned players bitсhing about conditions...
what tournament in all of history had no complaints about the tables or venue or whatever?

The relationship between a promoter and the events he runs is not father-son or boss-employee.
It's business-customer. Even if you happen to be friends with some of your regulars...
if a customer goes to your competitor, you don't flip them off and ban them from your business.
Nor give up and close the doors. You try to win them over/back.

 

[Ghosst]

But do we have any evidence of ANY pro player acting even remotely like this?

Sadly, yes. And yes to all of those remarks. There was even a complaint about the wrong kind of food on offer.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

..............

 

[pro9dg]

CJ
Can you stop using Bold
Colored and multisize fonts and other gimmicks.
The content of your postings make significant contributions to the thread.
But they are becoming unreadable and I find myself skipping over them.

 

[MahnaMahna]

CJ
Can you stop using Bold
Colored and multisize fonts and other gimmicks.
The content of your postings make significant contributions to the thread.
But they are becoming unreadable and I find myself skipping over them.

Hey look, someone who is already successful in the pool world and doesn't have to constantly promote himself and his products. He is actually able to write and converse like a normal person!

 

[sjm]

Despite suggestions to the contrary, I think the debate entailed in this thread has been conducted with a reasonable level of civility and with a lot of insight.

CJ has done a nice job of pointing out that a pool endeavor is like any other business, requiring essentially the same management methodology and executive leadership. He's right, with one caveat --- you must have a good product to sell. The difficulty of selling pro pool, which is defined by how the pro players present themselves and how they perform, is well established.

Some of us are convinced that the pro pool product as is should be sellable for anybody who follows sound principles of management, but others of us feel that the pro pool product needs great improvement to be sellable within the confines of a winning business plan.

No business entity, large or small, has been able to build a sustainable tour for the men at the national level for many years. Yes, some regional tours over the years, such as the Joss tour, have survived, but even at the regional level, most of the tours have failed to thrive.

It's easy to throw around management science concepts and argue that only good management stands between pro pool and a truly winning business model, but I'm not buying it. Good management is only part of the solution. To me, the remainder of the solution is to improve the pro pool product itself so that it can start attracting the demographic groups that have rejected it decade after decade.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong, along with others who've expressed the view that the pro pool product itself needs development before it can be sold effectively.

The players, through their behavior, seem to believe that the pro pool product is a great one that should be easily sellable if a pool proprietor exercises a sound and comprehensive business plan. If, alternatively, players felt that the pro pool product needs improvement, they'd work more closely with pool entrepreneurs and allow themselves to be packaged and marketed as those entrepreneurs see fit.

In pool, this is the debate of our times.

 

[336Robin]

Grassroots

This one paragraph is worth more and is truer than everything else that has been written or said about getting sponsorship for pool. It is ALL about demographics. It doesn't matter if, as CJ says, 100+ gazillion people watch ESPN. In any of it's current models, when pool came on the numbers for any desirable demo dropped off so far that they couldn't be found. That = no sponsors. It's not rocket science. Past failed sponsorships are the teacher...

I completely agree with Jay that the college model is a GREAT idea. Problem is, it's the intercollegiate athletics and activities departments that you have to sell it to, and they eventually have to sell it to the presidents. Yeah, it's worked in a few cases, but unfortunately when you hit the president's office it's usually time to cue up "Ya Got Trouble" (no pun intended)...

Doesn't stop me though...I've been researching getting something started at a local school here, and hope to pull the trigger with some pitches within a year or so. Still lining up enemies to influence :grin::grin:

The popularity of the sport is a huge problem there is no grassroots support. When I was a kid I learned it on a barbox that I could afford to play on and its not only that. It was acceptable that someone could come up and challenge me with a quarter in their hand.

My opinion is make pool affordable to teenagers, put the tables in places they go then you will start to get a grassroots support system going. 1 bar box table that cost a quarter a game doesn't say anything but it sure could do a lot in my opinion. It would be cheap fun and do the job a lot of us cant do ourselves. That isn't all of the equation but if no one plays the game its hard to resurrect it. Just my opinion.

 

[CJ Wiley]

would you "blame" me if I said "no thank you, I'm doing something else with my time?

If I sold you a lottery ticket that would cost you 90% of your savings and you didn't win would it be my fault for selling it to you, or yours for taking the gamble?

Of course not.

The point is, would you "blame" me if I said "no thank you, I'm doing something else with my time and money?"

Whether it's something else "pool related" or "fishing related" or "hunting related" it shouldn't matter......we all have the right to decide.

If someone decides (for whatever reason they choose) not to attend an event that only gives them a 20% chance of success then I say "more power to them".

This is the "free market" and Pro Players should have the same opportunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as any one of us.......Amen

 

[jay helfert]

C.J., there was a father and son that came through our area a few years ago and wanted to meet with Keith. They gave him $300 to sign some photos and cuesticks.

We met them at a Starbucks in our area. The father recently passed away. I can't remember their last name, but I'm sure you know them. I think they are from Texas.

Anyway, the son said they have been working on a pool museum for years and year, which is why they are gathering all these pool artifacts, autographs, cues, photos, et cetera. They aren't receiving any income from it, yet they are expending quite a bit in pursuit of this end goal.

After reading this thread, it kind of reminds me of Badi's mission with the Ultimate.

That would be Pete Glenn (the father and a damn good player in his day) and his son Denny Glenn. Fine men both!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Happiness is an emotion.

You must be refering to the line "...and the pursuit of happiness." The key word is pursuit. Too many people think they are entitled to happiness. You are not. You are entitled to pursue what makes you happy. That doesn't mean it will happen. Not everyone can win, even though people believe that and teach that.

Happiness is an emotion.....it hasn't nothing to do with "winning". :groucho:

 

[xplor]

What Badi failed to take unto account is most professional pool players qualify for food stamps.
Who wants to advertise to that group?

 

[CJ Wiley]

The key is TV.....TV gets out to the "masses" of consumers that do buy

What Badi failed to take unto account is most professional pool players qualify for food stamps.
Who wants to advertise to that group?

Yes, advertising to Pro Players is the what we were missing....that's the "secret," --- put on Pro Tournaments and use the players as the target demographic.....that makes a lot of sense.......not.

You have a point about the ones that do watch Pro Events, not that they are on food stamps, but that they probably don't spend much money on cars, boats, or mattresses.

The key is TV.....TV gets out to the "masses" of consumers that do buy cars, boats, and yes, even mattresses.....not to mention COORS, Budweiser, Crown, Red Bull and Snickers Bars.

Potential sponsors only care about ONE factor and that's WHO is watching the TV Show.....no matter what the show is there is a demographic that it appeals to and the deciding factor is always age, gender and financial strength (buying power).

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JoeyA]

That would be Pete Glenn (the father and a damn good player in his day) and his son Denny Glenn. Fine men both!

Pete slipped into town at Pickle's Sports Bar where I hung out about 10years ago and played JoeyA some one pocket. I lost 4 games in a row to Pete and I quit, not knowing who he was except that I seldom had a shot and always seemed to know how to get out of my safeties.

JoeyA

 

[jburkm002]

Might I suggest taking the tennis approach. Seeding players by rankings. What any TV or sponsor would want is top players in the finals. If it's about money for players and longevity in the sport. Let's say SVB is the top American player and the face of pro pool. That's who sponsors would want to see in the finals. Not two more players no one has ever heard of. You don't think sponsor love it when Sampras and Aggasi were in the finals.

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