Amateur or Pro has nothing to do with ability

[Jaden]

I agree with one exception.

Hmmmm....

It would be taboo for Tiger (or any other PGA touring pro) to cherry pick a local mens club tournament.

It is even taboo for a PGA tour pro to cherry pick "PGA Section" events.....(and those are technically professional events)....You must be a Golf Professional (Club Pro and in the PGA Program) and pass a PAT (Player Ability Test) before your allowed to play.

I "expect" it would have been taboo for Andre Agassi or Pete Sampress to show up for local mens club type events as well.

Pool is actually more liberal in that respect (in many cases).....I think in many cases it is actually a draw for the tournament field if Earl or Efren play in the event....

However...I do see some cases where it would be a detrament to the tournament in the long run....and should be "taboo" for those type players to "cherry pick".

There is no tour that requires you to meet a PAT or anything in men's pro pool in America, so you can't say oh well we know that you're too good because you wear a pink patch when you play WPA events etc..... So until we have a standard that applies to people and there's actually a good definitive answer to who is a pro, amatuer etc... I think it is wrong to bar people on a pick and choose basis.

Remember, Louis Ulrich was an amatuer until he moved out of Socal for a few years and he could still be considered an amatuer. It's funny in pool because some of the best players will inherently be names that no one knows. MOst will be known at least to some people, but there will always be a few that few people if anyone knows about until they come shooting onto the scene.

Jaden

 

[tucson9ball]

pro and amateur

Some people on this website have still got no understanding of this. AMATEUR OR PRO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPEED AT WHICH SOMEONE PLAYS!(contrary to what tour directors will have you believe) It is simply a classification. That is why the Amateur tours are bullshit. Two examples.......... Bobby jones (many people consider the greatest golfer of all time) won all his pro events as an AMATEUR! 2nd exp. All olympic athletes are amateurs and yet they set world records all the time. Meaning they are the best in the world at that event and yet they are amateur. That's why its bullshit to say your too good to play in this amateur event. (because in other sports the amateurs are some of the best in the world). I welcome all responses.

Well.....the olympic thing is way off base, but that is another story.
I agree with ya 100%, ability is not a deciding factor. If somebody wants to pay to get in pro events they can call themselves a pro. Are they good enough to win? Maybe they are, maybe they are not. The "pro pool player" idea is a VERY GREY area.
I would consider somebody a pro in any sport if that is what they did for a living. For example: a pro football player makes his living from playing football. He does not need to have another job to pay his bills.
In pool we don't get multi million $contracts to play. "I think" pro pool players rely on sponsors to get them around and pay entree fees. There are plenty of pool players with great abilities, some of these players still have to work at other jobs to pay their bills. So....are they pros or are they amateurs? In my opinion, pool has not progressed to the point where a great player can simply quit his day job and be a "professional pool player".
To be honest, "in my opinion again", pool may never reach the level of these other sports. Because of the fact that there are so many low life people associated with pool, it is hard to argue that professional matches would not be fixed. Not to say that we don't see this in other sports, but pool has been stereotyped for so long it's an uphill battle to get in the mainstream as a sport.
So.......in a nutshell, "I beleive" it is still a very grey area, are some players amateurs or pros?
OK, I opened the door for everybody to slam this thread in one way or another. This is just throwing out my views. So let me have it! I can take it, load both barrels-lol.

 

[cleary]

Some people on this website have still got no understanding of this. AMATEUR OR PRO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPEED AT WHICH SOMEONE PLAYS!(contrary to what tour directors will have you believe) It is simply a classification. That is why the Amateur tours are bullshit.

If your not able to play in an amateur event.... maybe that should tell you something about your game. Seems like your in denial and just looking to rob lesser players.

 

[corvette1340]

I can see B Whizzle's point of view and I can see why there are more amateur tourneys also. From a monitary stand point the amateur tourneys seem to be more lucrative for a tour to put on. I mean let's get serious, professional pool players as a whole are cheap as hell and don't spend any kind of money at events. It is also impossible for regional tours to charge an admission fee because people won't pay to watch the events.

On the other hand, in the amateur tourneys, more money is spent thereby making it more profitable for room owners.

In the open regional events there are usually 1-2 champions that win every regional event (ex. Larry Nevel) and then there are a couple of players that fall just under them (ex. Brian White) that always cash and sometimes win but are barely getting by when you factor in all the expenses. The fields in the open events are getting smaller and smaller because Joe Amateur that use to donate every week in the open event can now play in the amateur event and maybe cash.

Basically the open events are becoming less profitable for pros to attend because the money is getting shorter due to lack of participation. If this trend continues then Brian's point of the open events becoming extinct is more likely.

 

[ironman]

Yeah the Olympic basketball team is not made of amateurs. Look at the Dream Team.

How about all the basketball teams??? Did you ever take a good look at the Cuban baseball team?

 

[Russ Chewning]

I can see B Whizzle's point of view and I can see why there are more amateur tourneys also. From a monitary stand point the amateur tourneys seem to be more lucrative for a tour to put on. I mean let's get serious, professional pool players as a whole are cheap as hell and don't spend any kind of money at events. It is also impossible for regional tours to charge an admission fee because people won't pay to watch the events.

On the other hand, in the amateur tourneys, more money is spent thereby making it more profitable for room owners.

In the open regional events there are usually 1-2 champions that win every regional event (ex. Larry Nevel) and then there are a couple of players that fall just under them (ex. Brian White) that always cash and sometimes win but are barely getting by when you factor in all the expenses. The fields in the open events are getting smaller and smaller because Joe Amateur that use to donate every week in the open event can now play in the amateur event and maybe cash.

Basically the open events are becoming less profitable for pros to attend because the money is getting shorter due to lack of participation. If this trend continues then Brian's point of the open events becoming extinct is more likely.

So, in other words.. Mr. BadArse Professional is upset Joe Amateur has a valid place to compete, and is no longer dead money" in the open event.

Gotcha.

A lot of these pros need to understand that they were VERY VERY VERY lucky at some point in their lives to be able to play 20+ hours a week without having to pay for it (which is the biggest demographic amongst pros, I would wager).

The overwhelming majority of pool players never had such opportunity. So, it is GREAT that there are now more and more amateur tours for good, but not great players to compete in.

Yes, we are sorry that pool is not more organized in America, and that culturally, Americans don't have much interest in pool. But pros better keep in mind that if all the amateurs quit playing, then pool as a WHOLE dies.

Russ

 

[gpeezy]

So, in other words.. Mr. BadArse Professional is upset Joe Amateur has a valid place to compete, and is no longer dead money" in the open event.

Gotcha.

A lot of these pros need to understand that they were VERY VERY VERY lucky at some point in their lives to be able to play 20+ hours a week without having to pay for it (which is the biggest demographic amongst pros, I would wager).

Russ

Could do where you have a tournament with only people that work a 40+ hrs a week job. Proof by 3 pay stubs

 

[Stones]

The problem as I see it is as long as "amateur" tournaments offer cash payouts, a lot of players will scramble to stay in the "amateur" ranks.

Why play in the open or pro division when you don't have to play as hard and still see some money.

I played raquetball and archery tourneys when I was much younger. Both sports divided the amateur ranks up into A, B ,C, D and Novice divisions. The amateur players paid a low entry fee, usually $12-20, and fought it out for a TROPHY.

Any money the promoter made from the amateur divisions over the cost of the trophies went to cover the add on money for the open or pro division.

If you wanted to see some cash, you had to get up and fight it out with the big dogs.

Pretty simple solution:

AMATEUR DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET A TROPHY AND NO MONEY. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED THE AMATEUR DIVISION.

OPEN OR PRO DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET THE CASH.

Take the cash out of the "amateur" division and I think you would see a whole different ball game.

All this debate is about is semantics (amateur, open or pro). All a promoter is doing by putting the word "amateur" on a tournament flyer is simply for one thing: to attract as many players as possible to his event. The end result of which opens a can of worms about certain players' abilities and leads to debates like this thread.

Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you play for a cash payout, you're an open or pro player, period!

Stones

 

[bfdlad]

Hmmmm....

It would be taboo for Tiger (or any other PGA touring pro) to cherry pick a local mens club tournament.

It is even taboo for a PGA tour pro to cherry pick "PGA Section" events.....(and those are technically professional events)....You must be a Golf Professional (Club Pro and in the PGA Program) and pass a PAT (Player Ability Test) before your allowed to play.

I "expect" it would have been taboo for Andre Agassi or Pete Sampress to show up for local mens club type events as well.

Pool is actually more liberal in that respect (in many cases).....I think in many cases it is actually a draw for the tournament field if Earl or Efren play in the event....

However...I do see some cases where it would be a detrament to the tournament in the long run....and should be "taboo" for those type players to "cherry pick".

Here in PHX we have the rating system that some say has its flaws and probably does. Anyway they hold things like 8 and under events that keep the good players from playing in and taking the $$ every week. It's just like the hadicapping system in golf and stops Tiger from playing in smaller events. Because of the state of our sport and the differences financially I don't think that tiger would show up to a 100k added event.

 

[DR Pool]

amateur events creating more open players

Look at it this way. Shouldn't all these amateurs tours and events
actually be promoting players into the open division? I don't see
where it would do a promoter any good to allow the same
players to dominate a tour or series of events.

I believe Mj has set some guidelines for this. Maybe others
could follow. There are probably more open players that
fit this scenario than most people realize.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Here in PHX we have the rating system that some say has its flaws and probably does. Anyway they hold things like 8 and under events that keep the good players from playing in and taking the $$ every week. It's just like the hadicapping system in golf and stops Tiger from playing in smaller events. Because of the state of our sport and the differences financially I don't think that tiger would show up to a 100k added event.

LOL...don't get me started....

You know what the real joke is....I am not allowed to play in any 8 and under events.......yet I am only just barely (if that) good enough to compete against the "good players"

Probably the exact same situation the OP is in at a slightly different level....He is probably just able to compete at the top tier pro level competitions but does well in many smaller open type events that don't have an overload of top tier talent....

Yet...since he is not allowed to play...How is he going to get better so when the time comes to compete at the "top tier" pro events he will be competative???

It is interesting that Baseball and Basketball send some players to developmental leagues in the off season...

It seems like there are some "pro types" that could use that benefit as well.

The key point that was alrady made was that there is no "defined" identifier of who is top tier pro and who is not...

Short of being a name like Efren, Earl or Johnny...it is quite difficult to tell...especially with no sponsorship...or well defined pro tour.

For instance...Would Keith Mecready be labled a Pro?......Should he not be allowed to play?......As big a name as he is...I doubt he is "in stroke" like he would to be if there were a viable pro tour for him to play in, and I am sure he would like the benefit of being able to play some lower level events to get his game tuned up if there ever was a viable tour.

 

[BVal]

LOL...don't get me started....

You know what the real joke is....I am not allowed to play in any 8 and under events.......yet I am only just barely (if that) good enough to compete against the "good players"

Probably the exact same situation the OP is in at a slightly different level....He is probably just able to compete at the top tier pro level competitions but does well in many smaller open type events that don't have an overload of top tier talent....

Yet...since he is not allowed to play...How is he going to get better so when the time comes to compete at the "top tier" pro events he will be competative???

It is interesting that Baseball and Basketball send some players to developmental leagues in the off season...

It seems like there are some "pro types" that could use that benefit as well.

The key point that was alrady made was that there is no "defined" identifier of who is top tier pro and who is not...

Short of being a name like Efren, Earl or Johnny...it is quite difficult to tell...especially with no sponsorship...or well defined pro tour.

For instance...Would Keith Mecready be labled a Pro?......Should he not be allowed to play?......As big a name as he is...I doubt he is "in stroke" like he would to be if there were a viable pro tour for him to play in, and I am sure he would like the benefit of being able to play some lower level events to get his game tuned up if there ever was a viable tour.

It sucks you can't play in more tourneys but look at the bright side. Pretty soon you will be able to play in the seniors events

BVal

 

[BRKNRUN]

It sucks you can't play in more tourneys but look at the bright side. Pretty soon you will be able to play in the seniors events

BVal

LOL...just gotta twist that 40th BD knife huh?

That 40 year old body decline is hitting me after just one day..... I woke up and looked in the mirror and noticed that last night all my hair fell out.....

But hey...at least all the important body functions still work...

 

[BVal]

LOL...just gotta twist that 40th BD knife huh?

That 40 year old body decline is hitting me after just one day..... I woke up and looked in the mirror and noticed that last night all my hair fell out.....

But hey...at least all the important body functions still work...

Hey before long you will be going to the bathroom every morning at 6 am. Only problem is you don't get up till 7.

Happy Birthday!

BVal

 

[lodini]

Maybe you are right... maybe the difference between an amateur and a pro is ambition, not talent. In other words, if someone has the talent and the desire to become a pro, then they will do what it takes to get there. If someone has the talent and no ambition, then they will hang around amateurs and continue to beat up on them.

 

[tucson9ball]

lol

Hey before long you will be going to the bathroom every morning at 6 am. Only problem is you don't get up till 7.

Happy Birthday!

BVal

You Phoenix guys really need to get out more-jk. I'll see ya in a couple weeks.

 

[BVal]

You Phoenix guys really need to get out more-jk. I'll see ya in a couple weeks.

It's too ****in' hot! LOL See ya soon.

BVal

 

[Maniac]

Any money the promoter made from the amateur divisions over the cost of the trophies went to cover the add on money for the open or pro division.

If you wanted to see some cash, you had to get up and fight it out with the big dogs.

Pretty simple solution:

AMATEUR DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET A TROPHY AND NO MONEY. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED THE AMATEUR DIVISION.

OPEN OR PRO DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET THE CASH.

Take the cash out of the "amateur" division and I think you would see a whole different ball game.

All this debate is about is semantics (amateur, open or pro). All a promoter is doing by putting the word "amateur" on a tournament flyer is simply for one thing: to attract as many players as possible to his event. The end result of which opens a can of worms about certain players' abilities and leads to debates like this thread.

Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you play for a cash payout, you're an open or pro player, period!

Stones

This seems like a good solution, only don't charge me 50 or 75 dollars to enter as an amateur just to hand me some dust-collectin' trophy if I should happen to win. If the entry fee was 5 or 10 dollars tops, then I wouldn't mind playing for a trophy. Otherwise, like you say, if you want to try for big money, go run with the big dogs!!!

Maniac

 

[muttley76]

I think lodini makes a great point. Ambition is one of the good ways to tell a difference. And as far as killing pool if amateurs quit, surely you don't think that open level pool could really be hurt any more? It is already impossible to make any money in that type of event unless you are a consistent winner. And wow, you guys sure to seem to stereotype pool players. Just cause someone makes this post they HAVE to be angry at not being able to play. They could not possibly be concerned about the other issues this raises. Wshould hile I agree that Mr. White should be playing in the open/pro events, I don't think that excludes him from starting this discussion. I don't blame him for being frustrated, as his level is the hardest to handicap, and it does suck to feel penalized for getting better, and quite frankly, I don't know how many detractors in this post play well enough to know what that is like-Matt

 

[Southpaw]

The problem as I see it is as long as "amateur" tournaments offer cash payouts, a lot of players will scramble to stay in the "amateur" ranks.

Why play in the open or pro division when you don't have to play as hard and still see some money.

I played raquetball and archery tourneys when I was much younger. Both sports divided the amateur ranks up into A, B ,C, D and Novice divisions. The amateur players paid a low entry fee, usually $12-20, and fought it out for a TROPHY.

Any money the promoter made from the amateur divisions over the cost of the trophies went to cover the add on money for the open or pro division.

If you wanted to see some cash, you had to get up and fight it out with the big dogs.

Pretty simple solution:

AMATEUR DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET A TROPHY AND NO MONEY. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED THE AMATEUR DIVISION.

OPEN OR PRO DIVISION = TOP FINISHERS GET THE CASH.

Take the cash out of the "amateur" division and I think you would see a whole different ball game.

All this debate is about is semantics (amateur, open or pro). All a promoter is doing by putting the word "amateur" on a tournament flyer is simply for one thing: to attract as many players as possible to his event. The end result of which opens a can of worms about certain players' abilities and leads to debates like this thread.

Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you play for a cash payout, you're an open or pro player, period!

Stones

So you are saying that I should get into my car and drive anywhere from 50 to 200 miles round trip, pay my $50 entry and $20-$30 tour card, play my ass off against 30 or so people and get a trophy??? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! And before you ask, yes I do play in open events and will continue to do so...so Im not being hypocritical here.

Southpaw