America vs Rest of the World

[jokrswylde]

I think the gap between the US and the rest is widening.

Aside for the two inactive players (Dechaine/Bergman), the US has just two of the top ninety players based on Fargo Rate. Yes, SVB and Skyler are threats to win at a moment's notice. In Matchroom majors, Shane had a gold and a silver in 2022 and a bronze in 2023 and Skyler had two bronzes in 2023. Either might snap off a title, but neither is under 30 years old. To me, there's no consolation in the fact that America's top two remain outstanding players,

Yes, the US has a few up and coming young players, but I refuse to get excited about any young player of any nationality until they reach Fargo 750, and the Top 100 players all have a Fargo of 780, which is, perhaps, the new benchmark for world class nine ball.

Maybe that's what a young up and comer needs...the fans to get excited about them. As prevalent as social media is with the young folks, it has to be discouraging to constantly read how they can't compete and how bad US pool is. I'm not suggesting that they need sunshine pumped up their arse, but if they see people taking an interest and getting excited, it may just be the push they need to get to that next level.

In contrast, Europe has 22 year old Pehlivanovic (silver at the World Games and silver at the World 8-ball) at 807, 23 year old Gorst at 839, 23 year old Aleksa Pecelj at 793 (bronze in this year's US Open 9-ball), 24 year old Kaci at 830, 25 year old Pijus Labutis (bronze at the Spanish Open) at 791 and 25 year old Josh Filler at 844. Which Americans of 25 and under are achieving anything close to what these Europeans have already accomplished? Do any of the 25 and under Americans look like they can have results like these? We shall see, but it's hard to be optimistic.

Time will tell, but I think Filler and Gorst are generational talents. Although, I mentioned a couple of years ago during Filler's run that you never know how people will react when "life" kicks in. Marriage, kids, mortgages, businesses...all take their toll and it will be interesting to see if these under 25's stay dominant into their 30's

A 25-and-under Mosconi Cup would be far less competitive than the current version. Who exactly does the US want to put up against Filler, Kaci, Gorst, Pehlivanoic and Pacelj?

To get the ball rolling, America needs to own the size of the gap rather than live in denial.

Good post, and I certainly don't disagree with the summation, I'm just more of a glass half full guy. If you look at the state of American Tennis (Men's) today, many young fans would NEVER believe that a couple decades ago Americans were holding their own and even dominating. McEnroe, Connors, Agassi, Sampras....then we entered a dark period (with the exception of maybe Andy Roddick.)

Tennis has huge purses, great sponsorship, youth programs out the wazoo, and is on TV weekly. All the things we say pool needs to get American kids to play, yet we still can't compete with the Europeans currently (at least in Men's Tennis). Why?

Everything cycles in athletics. The Yankees dominate for a decade, and then can't win anything for a decade...and on and on.
Americans will be back on top in the tennis and pool worlds at some point...just hope it's in my lifetime.

 

[skogstokig]

Maybe that's what a young up and comer needs...the fans to get excited about them. As prevalent as social media is with the young folks, it has to be discouraging to constantly read how they can't compete and how bad US pool is. I'm not suggesting that they need sunshine pumped up their arse, but if they see people taking an interest and getting excited, it may just be the push they need to get to that next level.

yep. not that i understand social media or influencers one bit, but i don't think you have to have a trophy case like fedor to have a successful social media presence (like fedor has). savannah easton seems to have a big following, and she's no world beater. aloysius yapp did social media content long before he became a household name. probably a very useful tool for attracting sponsors and funding

 

[MitchAlsup]

If you're not in 1st place, you might as well be in last place!

Second place is the first losing place.

 

[The_JV]

I've come to realization that the issue with NA pool vs the world is nothing more than gambling.

I'll let that stew for a while and if the mood hits me, I'll explain later

 

[ShootingArts]

I've come to realization that the issue with NA pool vs the world is nothing more than gambling.

I'll let that stew for a while and if the mood hits me, I'll explain later

I think that gambling against and often hustling each other is an issue. Hard to forget your teammate this week hustled you for ten thousand or more last month. Asians seem to form groups easily and europeans form groups easier than Americans. I still remember the SOB that cheated me over fifty years ago.

Our ancestors had to be rugged individuals. We may not be as rugged but we are very much individuals. That helps most of the time but can bite us in the butt when we need to function as part of a team.

Hu

 

[ShortBusRuss]

You dont think it is terribly difficult to get to 700???? How much fun does that even sound like for any teen???? practice 12 hours a day all summer and breaks from school??? Just like the pros do, they practice maybe 20 hours a week. If somebody wants it bad enough even if you have a full time job you could find 2 to 3 hours a day to practice if you wanted to. People would rather find an excuse on why they dont want to put the work in. and say things like 700 is not terribly difficult to reach. 700 FR is extremely difficult to get to. how many people do you play pool with regularly or in your area that are over 700??? SMDH

Lol.... I live in Germany. There are at least 3 people in my club alone, north of 650, and they are adults with jobs. I know of at least 4 players in my immediate area and who play in Oberliga that are officially over 700, and who regularly play Eurotour events.

 

[sjm]

As we saw at the Sharks event in the Philippines, 700+ Fargo players grow on trees in Asia. Yes, the thousands that don't compete at pro level worldwide probably include a thousand with the skills of a 700+ Fargo. For example, Jay Helfert was telling us about Yapp's success in gambling circles long before he had ever competed.

 

[Jimmorrison]

I think what the guy is saying is how hard those teenagers worked to get above 700. At that age and level of commitment, there is potential. Doesn’t seem difficult to comprehend or agree with.

 

[Maniac]

I think what the guy is saying is how hard those teenagers worked to get above 700. At that age and level of commitment, there is potential. Doesn’t seem difficult to comprehend or agree with.

That, and he's talking about American teens, NOT German teens or teens from any other country. These teens over on this side of the pond have interests in far easier (learning-wise) pursuits than pool. And...what's the future in it for them, millionaire status??? Not likely. I'd bet there are more millionaire video "gamers" in America than millionaire pool players.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

That, and he's talking about American teens, NOT German teens or teens from any other country. These teens over on this side of the pond have interests in far easier (learning-wise) pursuits than pool. And...what's the future in it for them, millionaire status??? Not likely. I'd bet there are more millionaire video "gamers" in America than millionaire pool players.

I specifically was talking about it not being hard for a teen from "any" country to reach 700 Fargorate, of course, assuming they have the physical talent and personal drive. As well as access to quality equipment. Physical talent and drive are universal, and a certain percentage of people are born with both, and these are the ones we pull from for young competitive talent. As far as how to properly play the game? There has never been more information about that floating around, as in the Youtube age. I am sure there are many thousands of guitar players progressing at breakneck speed as compared to past decades, for example.

I personally have witnessed this from one Daniel Sardoncillo from WA state. I was playing well and he got my son for a few bucks, and I offered to play him (as I was preparing for Derby at his pool hall while on vacation), but he politely deferred. A year later, he was 700+, and a bit too strong for me. He got a girlfriend and is hovering at 698, so we'll see how (if) he progresses from this point.

Cultural differences and popularity of specific games in specific countries can lead to varying degrees of "drive", but this doesn't really have a lot to do with a teen's innate "ability" to reach 700 Fargorate. 800, OTOH, is a completely different animal.

 

[jay helfert]

It's just my opinion and it won't be a popular one for all the USA diehards, but I seriously doubt an American player will win a Matchroom event in the next year or so. Shane was/is our only hope and he is not the player he once was and certainly not in a class (regardless of Fargo rate) with the top Europeans and Asians. I feel like he has burnout, but I'm probably wrong. Maybe he just isn't as competitive in his heart since he finally won a World title. I don't know, but what I DO know is that these waves and waves of new players from all around the globe are showing me just how far behind the curve American players are.

The several hopefuls following in Shane's footsteps are showing no signs of taking home a major event or any MR event anytime soon. Until some of our youthful rising stars get tournament ready, it appears to be a sad and hopeless proposition. The Mosconi Cup seriously ought to be played between Europe and Asian teams.

I don't wish it to be this way, but it's getting hard for me to cheer for players that I know aren't really going to go deep into a tournament bracket. Maybe it will turn around sooner than I expect it to. I certainly hope so.

As of this moment, I'm going to root for Ralf Souquet to take this Open down (although I know that's not going to happen either).

Au contraire. Shane is definitely capable of winning any tournament he competes in. He will win again! You can bet on it. I would not be surprised to see Skylar win one either. He's knocking on the door right now. And look out for the new Tyler Styer. I see a man on a mission. Also, thanks to Ra Hanna's Junior International Tour there are a multitude of young players developing their games right here in America. I predict a resurgence in American pool during the next five years, including wins in the MC.

 

[TheBook]

I don’t care if they are from the USA or not. Efren wasn’t along with all of the other great Philippinos that dominated. Then all of the others that came from Europe, Asia, Canada, and England. They are all great players and I enjoy watching and cheering for them.

I just love watching and appreciate players that have great talent and skill.

 

[sjm]

I don’t care if they are from the USA or not. Efren wasn’t along with all of the other great Philippinos that dominated. Then all of the others that came from Europe, Asia, Canada, and England. They are all great players and I enjoy watching and cheering for them.

I just love watching and appreciate players that have great talent and skill.

Well said. Great pool is a joy to behold, regardless of who's playing it.

 

[BasementDweller]

That's my concern with SVB. Sometimes you just don'tsee that "fire" burning inside of him during his matches. You can see it in his body language. I saw it in his loss to Chang. He looks to me sometimes like he's suffering from burnout. He is by far the best we Americans have, but there's just way too much talent in the world to improve our odds of winning one anytime soon. It's getting to the point to where winning two in a row for ANYONE is going to be hard to do.

I think many are ALREADY looking back nostalgicly on SVB's early years, and forgetting what his game really looked like. To keep it simple, his game was always an amazing display of power with a sprinkling of unexplained misses. His power game was so overwhelming that when he got rolling he could outrun the random misses.

The way these fields are littered with amazing talent now, the formula for winning is just different. He still uses his powerful stroke to get back inline, when lesser players are forced to play safe but his misses are just punished exponentially more than in the past, since his power game isn't allowed out of the stable as much. Many of the top players he's competing against have games that are more clearly defined as delicately-precise. These guys maybe don't have his stroke, but their technique holds up well, they stay in line, and don't have too many unforced misses.

SVB can still hang with any of them, and I do think he's continued to improve his tactical game over the years. Trouble is, there are just too many guys that can take advantage of him when he plays his B game now.

 

[camaro69926]

Lol.... I live in Germany. There are at least 3 people in my club alone, north of 650, and they are adults with jobs. I know of at least 4 players in my immediate area and who play in Oberliga that are officially over 700, and who regularly play Eurotour events.

3 people in your club over 650 and 4 in your city that are plus 700. out of how many pool players? Those people deserve the credit for how hard they worked to get that fargo. If you were to say to them it is not that hard to get to 700, i am sure they would tell you that it took them years of practice, many matches and a lot of money in entry fees. That is only 7 of the many pool players in Oberliga. That is my point. If it was easy to get to 700 you would have way more than only 7 above 650 (not 700). We have junior players that already have the work ethic and fundamentals of a 700 fargo player and now just need table experience. IN THIER TEENS!!!! Just like the best now did when they were teenagers

 

[Dimeball]

That's my concern with SVB. Sometimes you just don'tsee that "fire" burning inside of him during his matches. You can see it in his body language. I saw it in his loss to Chang. He looks to me sometimes like he's suffering from burnout. He is by far the best we Americans have, but there's just way too much talent in the world to improve our odds of winning one anytime soon. It's getting to the point to where winning two in a row for ANYONE is going to be hard to do.

Ya Know, every time I start to agree with or think this, something happens like the match against Lee Van at the Cue Lee tourney, and pow, he's back ladies and gents...
I've watched several of the last big events, he cruises through and then someone has the match of the tourney or their lives to knock him out, hell several top 3-5 finishes, that's not burnout. THat's tougher competition plus good fortune at the right time.

 

[sjm]

I think many are ALREADY looking back nostalgicly on SVB's early years, and forgetting what his game really looked like. To keep it simple, his game was always an amazing display of power with a sprinkling of unexplained misses. His power game was so overwhelming that when he got rolling he could outrun the random misses.

The way these fields are littered with amazing talent now, the formula for winning is just different. He still uses his powerful stroke to get back inline, when lesser players are forced to play safe but his misses are just punished exponentially more than in the past, since his power game isn't allowed out of the stable as much. Many of the top players he's competing against have games that are more clearly defined as delicately-precise. These guys maybe don't have his stroke, but their technique holds up well, they stay in line, and don't have too many unforced missues.

SVB can still hang with any of them, and I do think he's continued to improve his tactical game over the years. Trouble is, there are just too many guys that can take advantage of him when he plays his B game now.

SVB plays just as he did at his best, but the importance of the break has been reduced and the importance of tactical play has been increased. That has slightly reduced the value of what was his greatest weapon and has exposed the fact that his tactical and defensive games are not quite as good as those of the most elite. No, his tactical game has not risen over the years, and it has cost him. Never the best pattern player out there, he still pockets balls with the best, but his pocketing skills are tested more often than in the past because of the silly-tight equipment now in vogue. He's still good enough to win something big, but it won't come easy.

 

[BasementDweller]

[...]No, his tactical game has not risen over the years, and it has cost him. Never the best pattern player out there, he still pockets balls with the best, but his pocketing skills are tested more often than in the past because of the silly-tight equipment now in vogue. He's still good enough to win something big, but it won't come easy.

We've discussed this in the past and we clearly disagree. He's actually still winning racks at very close to the same clip as he was when Fargo Rate was first rolled out. I don't recall if you answered the question but -- how could his Fargo Rating not be going down -- when his huge break advantage has diminished, if not for him making up the difference somewhere else? Something has to be making up for his decreased break advantage. I think it's his tactical game.

When I watch him, I see him edging balls for table length safes as good as anyone, and while he's no Efren, surely he's learned something about kicking in what's nearing nearly TWENTY YEARS of professional play! The idea that he hasn't improved tactically is one that I suspect even he would disagree with.

 

[sjm]

We've discussed this in the past and we clearly disagree. He's actually still winning racks at very close to the same clip as he was when Fargo Rate was first rolled out. I don't recall if you answered the question but -- how could his Fargo Rating not be going down -- when his huge break advantage has diminished, if not for him making up the difference somewhere else? Something has to be making up for his decreased break advantage. I think it's his tactical game.

When I watch him, I see him edging balls for table length safes as good as anyone, and while he's no Efren, surely he's learned something about kicking in what's nearing nearly TWENTY YEARS of professional play! The idea that he hasn't improved tactically is one that I suspect even he would disagree with.

He has improved in pocketing the balls in recent years, and he's improved his speed control, too, but he's getting fewer chances because he can't keep opponents in the chair as often with the new break rules.

We'll have to agree to disagree with respect to his tactical play. As I've so often noted, he's still very elite, but the deck is stacked against him a bit.

 

[realkingcobra]

In case you guys haven't noticed, Shane has also just about eliminated that little hitch in his back stroke, to where it's hardly noticeable, except once in a while. That little hitch has caused him some unexpected missed shots, that he would never miss, because they're not the hard shots missed, they're the ones that should NEVER be missed!!