AZ member screwed by Bill Stroud of Josswest

[Black-Balled]

to be clear, above, you were responding to a quote from jimmyg, and not me.

but based on this response and a couple of your others on this thread, I must say you seem to have a real preoccupation with Bill Strouds genetalia and anus.

best,
brian kc

He does seem to return to stick and balls.

 

[Spimp13]

............

 

[alstl]

Well said. So the contest winner should sue.

My design was better than the winner. Should I sue? If I win what do I get, my money back?

 

[rayjay]

...
All the ideas are still there for anyone to work with. Those ideas are what's worth it. Why don't WE as a community let the cuemakers here bid on making the cue that won? Then we all chip in and get it made.

Wouldn't that be a much cooler way to go than to continue to dredge up how awful it is that an 80 year old didn't come through on the cue? As mom used to say this is going to hurt me a lot more than it hurts you and I would bet the world that Bill has to think about this every time he enters a pool room knowing that a lot of the folks there know he stiffed on the cue. So let that be enough and let's move on to realizing the idea and making a rocking cue out of it.

Great idea. I'm in for $10. Good to see you back John.

 

[Luxury]

He's an arrogant old man who is considered by many to be a legend. And sadly, yeah. A slew of guys will jump at a chance to kiss his ass regardless of this one action. He's retired. And he seldom if ever posted on this forum to begin with before this who DYD fiasco. Why would he start caring now?!?

With AZers? Sure it will. But... there are a slew of people out there who actually don't care about AZers and what they think believe it or not. The guys who love Bill and (more to the point) his cues, will still love him and/or his cues. They'll still buy and collect them, cherish them, showcase them, etc.. The ONLY way this could harm someone's reputation is if he were taking future orders, which he's not.

Lol. Keep him in check from what? Continuing in his retirement??? This thread will likely do nothing. It's true. A fistful of AZers may care but that's about it.

Again, I'm not saying what he did was right. And I'm not defending him either. I'm just saying that threads like these have proved ineffective for a year now. And I don't really see the value of Joss West cues dropping off. Do you? This all just reads like sour grapes from a bunch of people that didn't win the contest to begin with.

You missed it. I didn't say it would keep Bill in check. I said it would keep Shady People in check.

 

[Jaden]

thats a cop iut for people willing to accept dishonesty.

I said this in another thread but it bears repeating here. Society has always been and always will be corrupt. Fighting physical duels over "honor" is archaic. People still fight in words and actions when they feel their honor has been impinged. People still kill over words unfortunately.

I think that at no time in the past were we as a species more honorable than now. We don't own slaves, we don't practice class discrimination, we don't practice racial discrimination, we don't behead people, we don't have public duels at ten paces.

We broke promises then, we scammed people then, we didn't fulfill our obligations then, we didn't act with "honor" and civility then all the time and we don't now.

What did Bill really do here? He fired up everyone's imaginations. He got people excited about what could be done and the ideas poured in. He got us talking and reinforcing our love of cues. At the end of the day only one guy could win anyway. So he did and unfortunately he will probably never see the cue. But the harm is far more on Bill's soul and character here. He can't come back to AZB and participate, he can't come here and bask in the adoration of 3 generations of pool players for all the great cues he put out. The guy who won just didn't get a cue which could have happened for any number of reasons other than lack of desire on Bill's end.

It's a sad situation but at the end of the day it's not the end of the world. Those who value pool cues don't really care about whether Bill delivered a cue or not just as we don't know or care if Monet ever stiffed a client along the way or not.

The way I see it is if you are truly upset then make a website and detail the whole saga. Put it up for anyone to read and decide for themselves if they want to purchase a JossWest. At this point it's pretty certain that those who own JossWest cues are going to hold onto them. As you can see they very rarely come on the market as it is.

Lastly instead of damning Bill why don't you all just sue him? If you feel that you have been damaged somehow then file suit and take him to court. I think that there is precedent for this when it comes to contests where the prize was not paid out. I am sure that with the combined brain power on this site the legal ground can be ascertained. Take action if it means that much.

The way I look at it is that this is somehow more damaging than the people who have actually stolen money from the community members here. Jason Lee from Singapore, Sam Engles/Tommy Stanfill, Chaz Dillon to name just a few have stolen collectively more than $5000 in cash and merchandise. I am sure if we were to go through all the deals where the money or product is gone over the past two or three years then it would add up to around 20 thousand dollars.

In contrast Bill Stroud fired up your imagination. Brian you wouldn't have that out of this world Eastwood case were it not for Bill's contest. You didn't win and I gave you the idea to make a case out of it and I still want to do something with it. You ran with the case idea and look at the work of art that now exists!

All the ideas are still there for anyone to work with. Those ideas are what's worth it. Why don't WE as a community let the cuemakers here bid on making the cue that won? Then we all chip in and get it made.

Wouldn't that be a much cooler way to go than to continue to dredge up how awful it is that an 80 year old didn't come through on the cue? As mom used to say this is going to hurt me a lot more than it hurts you and I would bet the world that Bill has to think about this every time he enters a pool room knowing that a lot of the folks there know he stiffed on the cue. So let that be enough and let's move on to realizing the idea and making a rocking cue out of it.

There have always been dishonest people. That is different than saying society has always been dishonest.

The societies I wrote about in my paper were NOT as dishonest as today's societies. People were expected to be honest and were often called out when they weren't. Those societies had their own problems but they were more honest or at least were outwardly expected to be.

That our society likes to rewrite history to make them feel better doesn't change that. Our society has made everyone in history liars, thieves and queers to suit their agendas but that doesn't make it so.

Jaden

 

[JB Cases]

There have always been dishonest people. That is different than saying society has always been dishonest.

The societies I wrote about in my paper were NOT as dishonest as today's societies. People were expected to be honest and were often called out when they weren't. Those societies had their own problems but they were more honest or at least were outwardly expected to be.

That our society likes to rewrite history to make them feel better doesn't change that. Our society has made everyone in history liars, thieves and queers to suit their agendas but that doesn't make it so.

Jaden

That's what you think. You are choosing to see the romantic movie version rather than the truth of it. Go back and read deeply about history and you find plenty of corruption and scandal even among the so-called noble class.

You say it's a cop out and I say it's reality. In actuality history was written by those who wanted to make themselves and their class look better than it was.

Now historians are able to look on the past with much more insight and able to ascertain the truth which is far grimier than whitewashed textbooks made it out to be.

I don't see how this could be considered noble behavior by anyone but the practitioners of it. Kind of like how Scientologists believe in their way as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

So, in your paper you tell us a story about a nobleman who called out a former prisoner for allegedly telling lies about the condition of his imprisonment. What if the prisoner had won the duel and slain the nobleman, would then his account of the treatment be truth? You think people don't get called out for their foibles today? What is this thread then if NOT calling out Bill's actions on this.

Just because not everyone is on board with an ongoing whine-fest over it doesn't mean Bill hasn't been called-out. If I read your sentiments correctly you seem to feel that perhaps Bill should either consent to a duel to settle it or perhaps he should fall on his cue and commit noble suicide for this disgrace? I am not entirely sure of the point you are making. The fact that this colossal stiffing of the winner and the forum is enshrined in multiple threads spanning years for as long as the internet exists isn't enough for you?

We are not willing to accept dishonesty. We simply are not willing to kill or sentence people to death over it any more as a society. That's far more noble in my opinion.

 

[JB Cases]

You missed it. I didn't say it would keep Bill in check. I said it would keep Shady People in check.

Doubtful that this will keep and shady people from doing what they are going to do.

If the consequence was tasering to the nuts then maybe.....

 

[HollyWood]

I helped a customer-

Finally get his custom cue from Mr. bill- start to finnish was 10 + It was warped shaftwood he blaqmed the process on. The cue is sweet with Ivory and gold. extended length. It was a trade of Morris cues and cash! I like bill been in his corner- but this was nutz- he did come through. mark

 

[Luxury]

Doubtful that this will keep and shady people from doing what they are going to do.

If the consequence was tasering to the nuts then maybe.....

You probably doubt that the "been caught stealin' " thread won't reduce the shady people from stealing cues on camera either. If you missed that thread you should check it out. It was EPIC!

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

At the time of this writing, this thread has received close to 6,500 views and mine will be the 140th response. Obviously, the topic has hit a nerve with many az'ers.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions, thoughts, suggestions and the debate.

Some have stated that they feel it's time to move on and some even believe it's to do with sour grapes that these threads even exist on az.

I'll be the first to admit that this certainly doesn't rise to the level of a serious crime, so why all of the attention? Why post these threads?

It's to do with fellow az'er, mhaimi, who submitted a really nice original cue design, then endured months of competition against others who worked very hard coming up with their designs, only for him to win and never receive his prize.

And the man who ran the contest, legendary cuemaker, Bill Stroud, who has not come through with that prize; that he shouldn't be able to hold his head high anywhere he goes where pool is being played for his bad deed. Or, on a more optimistic note, that maybe he'll eventually feel compelled to make good on his promise. That's the reason for these threads - nothing more, nothing less.

I expect I'll be posting another one around New Year.

I have received pm's from members who said they had never heard about any of this before and so now they know.

Someone posted that they thought that these threads would have Bill digging in his heels and not making the cue over his being questioned. To them I say, I see an awful lot of these same kinds of excuses on shows like Judge Judy where the people who clearly are in the wrong say, "I would have paid you but you wouldn't stop bugging me about it." Yeah, sure you would have. And, of course, the only reason they were being "bugged" is because being quiet wasn't working.

And for the record, it was many months after the DYD contest ended that the first of these threads came out, not a couple of months after, as someone claimed.

For those who may not know, az member and contest winner, mhaimi, is in europe and at a bit of a disadvantage regarding what he may be able to do about this. Frankly, I personally don't think much could be done about it anyway, at least not in a court of law.

It was suggested that this cue, if completed, may have been valued at five figures given the design and the historical context. On that I really couldn't say but, I'd venture a guess that it would have at least been in the high four figures. So for those who think the winner has no reason to be very disappointed, I tend to think otherwise.

Bill Stroud completely lost my respect the minute I heard of his decision to commit most of his time to getting his game back up to tournament speed, and, that he would try to work on the DYD cue if and when he got some spare time.

mhaimi should have been treated as if he were one of Bill's best paying customer but, clearly, Bill didn't feel that way.

Jay Helfert posted in this thread that a while back he asked Bill about the DYD cue and that the response he got caused him to lose some respect for Bill. I wonder what he said.

Josswest cues will continue to be collectible as well they should be. I'm sure, nothing written here on az, good or bad, is going to affect their value.

However, how Bill Stroud, the man, is valued, well that might be another story.

Your word, your integrity, your rep, they all matter.

Maybe Bill will feel the people around him at the events he attends, gazing upon him somewhat less adoringly than they previously did.

Maybe he doesn't give a crap.

best,
brian kc

 

[Jager Monster]

................................................

 

[mia]

At the time of this writing, this thread has received close to 6,500 views and mine will be the 140th response. Obviously, the topic has hit a nerve with many az'ers....

....Maybe he doesn't give a crap.

best,
brian kc

While I understand mhaimi being frustrated and/or disappointed, I'm not so sure I understand why YOU are so enraged.

Either way, I cut out the majority of your post and pretty much summed up the effectiveness of these threads using your own words.

Take care.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

While I understand mhaimi being frustrated and/or disappointed, I'm not so sure I understand why YOU are so enraged.

Either way, I cut out the majority of your post and pretty much summed up the effectiveness of these threads using your own words.

Take care.

First, I will clarify, I'm not "enraged" over any of this. That's definitely the wrong adjective.

As far as why I take this so personally, that's very easy to answer.

Bill Stroud has played approximately 250 fellow az members for fools. Actually, it isn't even limited to those who submitted a design for consideration in his contest. What he did is an affront to all AZ'ers.

You've seen threads posted here where people had their cues stolen, right? We're you a little upset that someone would do something so low or were you okay with it?

My sense is that if you put in the kind of time designing a DYD cue like mhaimi did, and it won but was never delivered, you'd be singing a slightly different tune.

I think you'd be appreciating these threads a little more than you currently do.

Just my opinion, of course.

best,
brian kc

 

[greyghost]

Like Joey, I spoke to Billy about this cue over a year ago. I will only say that I was very disappointed in his response to me. He didn't seem to think it was a priority and would get to it when he had time. I love Billy but I lost some respect for him that day.

Little story for ya Jay and this happend along time ago. A friend of mine left a shaft with bill at a tournament for bill to change the tip, he was leaving and it was going to have to be mailed back to him.

My friend who is a very good player, received said shaft. Put it on his cue and the first shot he took with it POW the tip flies off. He finds the tip and turns it over and theres a smiley face under it and it was concaved.

said:

HAVE A NICE DAY





written under it. Thought that was a pretty non funny thing to do to a paying customer and ever since then I didn't want a Stroud regardless of the "legacy"

So all this mess doesn't suprise me, to be honest.

-GG

 

[mia]

Bill Stroud has played approximately 250 fellow az members for fools. Actually, it isn't even limited to those who submitted a design for consideration in his contest. What he did is an affront to all AZ'ers.

An affront to all AZ'ers? Please. 30,000 + members of this site. I would bet the vast majority look at this situation and say "Wow. That's kinda shitty of him. ....on to the next thread."

You've seen threads posted here where people had their cues stolen, right? We're you a little upset that someone would do something so low or were you okay with it?

No. I think theft is wrong. When i see those threads I think 'That sucks, but at least it wasn't me. ...on to the next thread."
But nothing was stolen here. Some people's time was wasted. That happens to just about everyone every single day. Now all that's happening is you're wasting your own time because really, none of this is going to do much of anything. If mhaimi ever DOES get his cue, it likely won't be because of these threads. If he doesn't, all your energy aimed at these threads will still have been for nothing.

My sense is that if you put in the kind of time designing a DYD cue like mhaimi did, and it won but was never delivered, you'd be singing a slightly different tune.

You're probably right. But... I didn't. And while you may have submitted a design, you didn't win. So why fight the good fight? You're out the same amount of time, energy, and money (???) that you would have been if mhaimi had received his cue 6 months ago. My point is simply that these threads serve no purpose. Really. What's the point?? If its to get results, they're not working. The cue is probably not coming. If its to aggravate Bill, its probably not working. He's clearly not interested anymore. If its to alert everyone that Bill will not deliver cues, well... he's retired. If its to show Bill how hurt you all are, he clearly doesn't really care. So really, what's the goal here? What are you hoping to accomplish??



For what its worth, I don't agree with what Bill has done. I think its a d!ck thing to do. But this is Bill Stroud we're talking about here. Apart from being a legend, he's also kinda known for being an old, arrogant S.O.B.. So do you really think threads on a pool forum are going to bring on some epiphany that he needs to save his 'character' or his reputation??? Not likely.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

An affront to all AZ'ers? Please. 30,000 + members of this site. I would bet the vast majority look at this situation and say "Wow. That's kinda shitty of him. ....on to the next thread."



No. I think theft is wrong. When i see those threads I think 'That sucks, but at least it wasn't me. ...on to the next thread."
But nothing was stolen here. Some people's time was wasted. That happens to just about everyone every single day. Now all that's happening is you're wasting your own time because really, none of this is going to do much of anything. If mhaimi ever DOES get his cue, it likely won't be because of these threads. If he doesn't, all your energy aimed at these threads will still have been for nothing.





You're probably right. But... I didn't. And while you may have submitted a design, you didn't win. So why fight the good fight? You're out the same amount of time, energy, and money (???) that you would have been if mhaimi had received his cue 6 months ago. My point is simply that these threads serve no purpose. Really. What's the point?? If its to get results, they're not working. The cue is probably not coming. If its to aggravate Bill, its probably not working. He's clearly not interested anymore. If its to alert everyone that Bill will not deliver cues, well... he's retired. If its to show Bill how hurt you all are, he clearly doesn't really care. So really, what's the goal here? What are you hoping to accomplish??



For what its worth, I don't agree with what Bill has done. I think its a d!ck thing to do. But this is Bill Stroud we're talking about here. Apart from being a legend, he's also kinda known for being an old, arrogant S.O.B.. So do you really think threads on a pool forum are going to bring on some epiphany that he needs to save his 'character' or his reputation??? Not likely.

I guess it comes down to people having the right to support Bill and others having the right to call him out for his POS moves. A balance, if you would.

I think this thread should be a forever sticky to teach future air barreling people a lesson.

I wonder who really benefited from our designs? The thing was prob a scam to help his colleagues figure out designs by thinking outside the box.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[cardiac kid]

For what its worth, I don't agree with what Bill has done. I think its a d!ck thing to do. But this is Bill Stroud we're talking about here. Apart from being a legend, he's also kinda known for being an old, arrogant S.O.B.. So do you really think threads on a pool forum are going to bring on some epiphany that he needs to save his 'character' or his reputation??? Not likely.

And the alternative is??????? Lets have everyone just shut up. Why waste your breath? Or your time writing a post on this thread?

If we say nothing, we're as guilty as Mr Stroud. Legend? SOB? Frankly, I don't care which! When I make a promise to someone, directly or indirectly, it is my duty to fulfill the promise. Silence is the friend of tyranny. Even blowhards like Rush Limbaugh make people think. Usually in my view, incorrectly. At least they think.

Lyn

 

[DrOnePocket]

I guess it comes down to people having the right to support Bill and others having the right to call him out for his POS moves. A balance, if you would.

I think this thread should be a forever sticky to teach future air barreling people a lesson.

I wonder who really benefited from our designs? The thing was prob a scam to help his colleagues figure out designs by thinking outside the box.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SpiderWebComm again.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

dead horse alert...

An affront to all AZ'ers? Please. 30,000 + members of this site. I would bet the vast majority look at this situation and say "Wow. That's kinda shitty of him. ....on to the next thread."



No. I think theft is wrong. When i see those threads I think 'That sucks, but at least it wasn't me. ...on to the next thread."
But nothing was stolen here. Some people's time was wasted. That happens to just about everyone every single day. Now all that's happening is you're wasting your own time because really, none of this is going to do much of anything. If mhaimi ever DOES get his cue, it likely won't be because of these threads. If he doesn't, all your energy aimed at these threads will still have been for nothing.





You're probably right. But... I didn't. And while you may have submitted a design, you didn't win. So why fight the good fight? You're out the same amount of time, energy, and money (???) that you would have been if mhaimi had received his cue 6 months ago. My point is simply that these threads serve no purpose. Really. What's the point?? If its to get results, they're not working. The cue is probably not coming. If its to aggravate Bill, its probably not working. He's clearly not interested anymore. If its to alert everyone that Bill will not deliver cues, well... he's retired. If its to show Bill how hurt you all are, he clearly doesn't really care. So really, what's the goal here? What are you hoping to accomplish??



For what its worth, I don't agree with what Bill has done. I think its a d!ck thing to do. But this is Bill Stroud we're talking about here. Apart from being a legend, he's also kinda known for being an old, arrogant S.O.B.. So do you really think threads on a pool forum are going to bring on some epiphany that he needs to save his 'character' or his reputation??? Not likely.

mia;

the bottom line is I don't like injustice.

And, again, as for what was the purpose of this thread. If it serves to make Bill Stroud the slightest bit uncomfortable over his failure to deliver on his promise, then it was worth the time.

And as previously stated, if in even the smallest way it causes Bill to finish mhaimi's cue, that would be the best outcome of all.

Being quiet about it was doing n-o-t-h-i-n-g !

If you need further clarification on my position, please reread my posts in the thread - it's all there.

Thanks.

best,
brian kc