Is "squatting the rock" on the break slightly overrated???
- Thread starter Maniac
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I find I have most success on a 9 ball break when I can bring the cue ball off the side cushion (a diamond below the side) and back out about a diamond.
The cue ball doesn't get kicked very often and you still get a nice spread.
The one ball, if it doesn't go in, goes up table and will hopefully give you a shot in one of the top corners.
The cue ball doesn't get kicked very often and you still get a nice spread.
The one ball, if it doesn't go in, goes up table and will hopefully give you a shot in one of the top corners.
What I like about it is it gets the cue ball up and out of the way of the other balls, allowing a decent spread.
I've been trying to get the 1 ball to hit before the side pocket (using a square collision) with no luck. I wonder if the "squat" spin and trajectory would help? I don't like it when the 1 goes toward the side and hits off the point, sending it to the wrong end.
Chris
Ps. In the new Billiards Digest, there is a great artcle on breaking by Dennis Hatch, Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris and Corey Deuel. One of them (I think Deuel) says something to the effect that most players are better off with a level cue and a flat cue ball than jumping it and squatting. What really impressed me is Deuel's attitude toward the break shot. He would no more hit a wild, uncontrolled break than he would hit any other shot that way.
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hell i'd be happy to just be able to make a ball on the break,
reguarding the OP, yeah I'd like to have the rock in the middle of the table on every break, because IMO at the end of the day you would come out having the highest % shot on the next ball, weather you play safe or try and run out either way being in the center of the box is the best spot for the first shot after the break.
reguarding the OP, yeah I'd like to have the rock in the middle of the table on every break, because IMO at the end of the day you would come out having the highest % shot on the next ball, weather you play safe or try and run out either way being in the center of the box is the best spot for the first shot after the break.
A tip for breaking bar box 8 ball, :
There are so many more balls heading past the center of the table that the pop and squat is actually kind of dangerous. I like to break from dead center and bring the cue ball to the head rail and back up.
Every now and then one of the two corner balls will two rail around and kiss whitey in the bottom corner, but it doesn't happen as often as being kicked in from the center.
There are so many more balls heading past the center of the table that the pop and squat is actually kind of dangerous. I like to break from dead center and bring the cue ball to the head rail and back up.
Every now and then one of the two corner balls will two rail around and kiss whitey in the bottom corner, but it doesn't happen as often as being kicked in from the center.
The "rule of thumb" is to squat the rock in the center. As with any rule, there are exceptions. If you are constantly bringing the one to the foot rail, center table will consistently give you a bank or a safety shot. Sooooo...... it largely depends on where you are putting the one. And, that is usually determined by the speed. You may find that if you take some speed off the break shot, the one will be around the side pocket, and the other balls will spread nicely without hitting the cb.
Remember, the idea of the break shot is not to see how far you can move all the balls, or how loud of a noise you can make. But to make a ball , spread the balls apart, and get shape on the lowest ball.
One ball placement is not only determined by speed, but also by cueball placement. Starting off breaking from the side rail (as a starting point for the example), the closer you move into the headspot, the more narrow the path of the one. Meaning speed being constant, if the one is hitting just below the side pocket, move the cueball in and it will go in the side. If its not coming far enough up table, move it in more to get it up near the corner pocket.
It is a combination of speed and cueball placement that will yield intended results. That is one of the reasons Shane's break is so devastating. He not only has great form, but he also pays attention to placement and varies speed to get the best results for that particular set-up.
I think it's important to have a shot after the break and i think that leaving the CB in the middle of the table increases your odds of doing so. There are so many variables that go into this as you know. I think the best this you can do to avoid the cb getting knocked from the middle of the table is to experiment with different speeds. Mainly, try to slow down the CB some. I think that will help you allot.
I'll go against the current on popping the cue bal up in the air. I don't think you transfer the maximum amount of energy into the rack that way and therefore don't get the best spread on the balls. I get the best spread when I hit the head ball square and the cue ball comes back to the middle of the table.
I'm not talking 9 ball, the 9 ball break is a different animal.
I'm not talking 9 ball, the 9 ball break is a different animal.
Oh,well allow me to expound on the subject by first responding to you asking this question by sending a question to you in return.
Is Pythagorean Theorem overrated?
Or,is squatting the rock just as powerful if you apply it?
My next question isn't intended for just the OP,but more rather the general crowd of augurs here that have been around 20 or more years.
Who would you say is the person that innovated the technique of putting the cue ball in the air and making it come back down with a dead stop?
I'm sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow that someone saw a nice squat that happened by accident,then sat and thought it out about how to reproduce it.
It kind of reminds me in a way of that scene near the beginning of History Of The World Part 1,where Goonga smashes Golli's foot with a heavy rock and made him scream,liked the noise it made,thought about it,then smashed his foot again to try and make the noise again :thumbup: :thumbup:.
I heard one time as Roger Griffis was talking to I think Mark Jarvis about this,that Wade Crane was really the first player that was doing this with regularity,and maybe there was a secret or something simple that made this shot a reliable weapon. I never saw much of Wade really,other than across the room.
The guy I thought did it best at least in the beginning has always been Sigel from my first visual experience with pro-level pool starting in 1985. Billiards Digest had articles around then that said Mike was around 26mph according to actual radar guns,and this was done on a LOT of tables with slow,nappy old school cloth.
Shane these days by a LOOOONG way...but still not the best I've ever seen.
That player was the recently departed cult legend roadie/MONSTER player Pete Horne. As I've mentioned here several times now,over something close to 1500 racks of 9-Ball and bank pool,I can't remember more than 20 racks where he squatted it and still scratched.
His break stroke,technique,whatever you wanna call it was so disgustingly pure that if you watched him break 10 racks in a row where the cue ball dies and isn't touched by another ball,you could find about a 4" long area right on the break track where the cue ball ended up most often because usually,the cue ball came back to him almost exactly 25 inches from contacting the one.
I did watch Danny Cook back when I thought he was Jordan on a bar box,esp his pet where even casual observers could see a 6" diameter spot on the cloth because he did it so often,but also saw him overamp and jump balls off table,contact the light regularly,etc.
In my exp watching Pete,his was regardless of table,cloth,or location and never once saw him jump cue ball off table when breaking,just a couple on actual jump shots.
The HARDEST breaker I've ever seen that did it semi-regularly other than Shane in isolated breaks I've seen of his is Jon Kucharo. The vid to see is on Youtube,full speed vid from frontal camera angle,2000 U.S. Open.
He didn't hit 'em like that vid every time,but common in the 2 hours I watched him break like that power and effort-wise. Tommy D.
Is Pythagorean Theorem overrated?
Or,is squatting the rock just as powerful if you apply it?My next question isn't intended for just the OP,but more rather the general crowd of augurs here that have been around 20 or more years.
Who would you say is the person that innovated the technique of putting the cue ball in the air and making it come back down with a dead stop?
I'm sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow that someone saw a nice squat that happened by accident,then sat and thought it out about how to reproduce it.
It kind of reminds me in a way of that scene near the beginning of History Of The World Part 1,where Goonga smashes Golli's foot with a heavy rock and made him scream,liked the noise it made,thought about it,then smashed his foot again to try and make the noise again :thumbup: :thumbup:.
I heard one time as Roger Griffis was talking to I think Mark Jarvis about this,that Wade Crane was really the first player that was doing this with regularity,and maybe there was a secret or something simple that made this shot a reliable weapon. I never saw much of Wade really,other than across the room.
The guy I thought did it best at least in the beginning has always been Sigel from my first visual experience with pro-level pool starting in 1985. Billiards Digest had articles around then that said Mike was around 26mph according to actual radar guns,and this was done on a LOT of tables with slow,nappy old school cloth.
Shane these days by a LOOOONG way...but still not the best I've ever seen.
That player was the recently departed cult legend roadie/MONSTER player Pete Horne. As I've mentioned here several times now,over something close to 1500 racks of 9-Ball and bank pool,I can't remember more than 20 racks where he squatted it and still scratched.
His break stroke,technique,whatever you wanna call it was so disgustingly pure that if you watched him break 10 racks in a row where the cue ball dies and isn't touched by another ball,you could find about a 4" long area right on the break track where the cue ball ended up most often because usually,the cue ball came back to him almost exactly 25 inches from contacting the one.
I did watch Danny Cook back when I thought he was Jordan on a bar box,esp his pet where even casual observers could see a 6" diameter spot on the cloth because he did it so often,but also saw him overamp and jump balls off table,contact the light regularly,etc.
In my exp watching Pete,his was regardless of table,cloth,or location and never once saw him jump cue ball off table when breaking,just a couple on actual jump shots.
The HARDEST breaker I've ever seen that did it semi-regularly other than Shane in isolated breaks I've seen of his is Jon Kucharo. The vid to see is on Youtube,full speed vid from frontal camera angle,2000 U.S. Open.
He didn't hit 'em like that vid every time,but common in the 2 hours I watched him break like that power and effort-wise. Tommy D.
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Squatting the rock
Lots of great responses here;I like Neil and 420s the best. The least movement you have with the cue ball, the most energy is transferred to the racked balls. If your cue ball doesn't travel more than two feet, you will never scratch. Sometimes it will do so with a kiss, of course, but if you scratch without a kiss, it was your fault. I consider myself as having hit the break well if the cue ball comes to rest anywhere in a six-inch wide rectangle extending from the rack spot back to the table center and a foot beyond. One of several exceptions is when I choose the 8-ball break second ball hit. I understand the theory of looking at the CB when you hit, but I have the best luck looking at the CB on my final pull-back and then looking at the base of the head ball as I hit my business stroke.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Lots of great responses here;I like Neil and 420s the best. The least movement you have with the cue ball, the most energy is transferred to the racked balls. If your cue ball doesn't travel more than two feet, you will never scratch. Sometimes it will do so with a kiss, of course, but if you scratch without a kiss, it was your fault. I consider myself as having hit the break well if the cue ball comes to rest anywhere in a six-inch wide rectangle extending from the rack spot back to the table center and a foot beyond. One of several exceptions is when I choose the 8-ball break second ball hit. I understand the theory of looking at the CB when you hit, but I have the best luck looking at the CB on my final pull-back and then looking at the base of the head ball as I hit my business stroke.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
It is always like that, except when it is not.
Two Feet
Unless you play on a table that is smaller than 3 1/2 x 7, you cannot scratch if your CB does not travel more than two feet simply because the foot spot is MORE than two feet from any pocket. You may be confusing your stroke causing the CB to travel more than two feet from contact with the rack and a kiss causing it to do so.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Unless you play on a table that is smaller than 3 1/2 x 7, you cannot scratch if your CB does not travel more than two feet simply because the foot spot is MORE than two feet from any pocket. You may be confusing your stroke causing the CB to travel more than two feet from contact with the rack and a kiss causing it to do so.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
I almost never do this, well sometimes I do, all right usually I do, practically always, actually. What am I talking about?
Not reading an entire thread before offering my opinion.
So please forgive me if someone else has already said this but, hell no, squatting the rock in rotation games is not overrated.
Crack the one ball, get whitey to jump back a foot or two and the averages for you to continue with a smile on your face is real good.
And that's all we can do besides practice, is to put whatever odds we can in our favor.
Viva le squat! :thumbup:
Best,
Brian kc
Not reading an entire thread before offering my opinion.
So please forgive me if someone else has already said this but, hell no, squatting the rock in rotation games is not overrated.
Crack the one ball, get whitey to jump back a foot or two and the averages for you to continue with a smile on your face is real good.
And that's all we can do besides practice, is to put whatever odds we can in our favor.
Viva le squat! :thumbup:
Best,
Brian kc
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Interesting idea. I also tend to look at the cue ball...however I want to point out that Francisco Bustamante specifically says you have to look at the 1 ball. I'd say he knows a thing or two about breaking...so clearly when you say "the last thing you should be looking at" you mean "the last thing I should be looking at". Seems there are different methods of success here.
KMRUNOUT