Man charged for trading ivory

Just some more info that I saw on another forum regarding this issue, http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1010/101028orlando.htm

No matter what ultimately happens to Mr Barringer this incident may well be a wake up call to find a suitable manmade substitute for ivory. It also makes me wonder about the usage of real elephant ear wraps given the fact that they are considered an endangered species.
 
Quesports said:
Just some more info that I saw on another forum regarding this issue, http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1010/101028orlando.htm

No matter what ultimately happens to Mr Barringer this incident may well be a wake up call to find a suitable manmade substitute for ivory. It also makes me wonder about the usage of real elephant ear wraps given the fact that they are considered an endangered species.
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He shipped legal pre-ban Ivory out of the United States. We all know that is illegal, and now we know they are actively setting up stings. 2+2 = no Ivory leaves the states.

On a related note, a search turned up this article:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/b...-cue-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-ivory-trade.html
 
When I was going up on the farm there was a big hornets nest in a tree about a 200 yard from the house. I once took my 3030 with me and about 100 yards from the tree I busted a cap into that nest.

Wow was that exciting!
 
BryanBpool said:
For Several Reasons:

  • Elephant gestations time is nearly two years.
  • It takes two to four years until they can have another calf.
  • They only have a single baby.
  • Elephants do not grow their adult tusks till after year one.
  • Tusks grow at a rate of 7in per year. It would take several years before they could be harvested.

Needless to say, it would be cost prohibitive.
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You could manage elephants the way you do with tree harvesting. You have year crops, every year there is a mature set of elephants to harvest. Provided the amount of births match the harvest. I don't know how well that would work and don't feel like researching it. Just a thought.
 
hangemhigh said:
He shipped legal pre-ban Ivory out of the United States. We all know that is illegal, and now we know they are actively setting up stings. 2+2 = no Ivory leaves the states.

On a related note, a search turned up this article:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/b...-cue-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-ivory-trade.html
Click to expand...

Wow, so his real name is Joe Puleo and the event happened in 2007. I will say this about Joe, he is one ambitious guy! You look at all the stuff he sells, the buying and trading he does, and he's all over the place. That was probably $35,000 worth of Cuban cigars he lost.

I wonder if the ivory they seized in his house was legal. Seems impossible that the ivory could be seized if it was obtained legally...

Truthfully, they could have busted many dozens of cue sellers the same way. Years ago, I sold cues on E-bay that had ivory and there was a foreign buyer who bought some of them. I could have been in the same boat as many of us who sold cues would have been.

I read up on the laws and it did not appear that legally obtained ivory that was not a "raw" tusk, was illegal to export. I didn't know it was illegal to export cues (U.S. Law) and I kind of doubt that it is, although I don't doubt that each country has it's own restrictions and illegally shipped cues could be seized.

Chris
 
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supergreenman said:
Knock yourself out, looks like you have one less place to buy from. :D

Wish you the best of luck, hope you find yourself explaining to the authorities why you think it's your right to use ivory even though it's against the law.
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Although I would look for suitable alternatives myself....Elforyn, Ivorite, etc. It is not against the law to use legally documented/obtained/pre-ban Ivory. It is against the law to export it. I'm not to sure about the importing..
 
Yeah, the FEDS and Scotland Yard.
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Hahaha, I almost snorked beer thru my nose.

With all the East Indians moving to Canada/USA, I doubt our cow population has anything to worry about. With the other folks, I think our sacred Canadian bacon is safe as well.

I have no use for ivory in a cue, period. If anyone wants to read into that further to understand my stance on killing elephants whether legally culled or poached is ok by me. Yet, I have no problems sinking my teeth into a big rib steak on the weekends. Many abattoirs have less than humane ways of killing the animals. We try and not think about it when we are horking out on Bar B Cue.

Losing that many Cuban cigars makes me weep. They'll be getting passed around at this years Christmas party.

I have no idea why Scotland Yard would be that interested in a couple of cues containing ivory, that they'd spend the time and expense on a sting. You'd think with all the terrorists running around London that they'd have better things to think about.
 
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TATE said:
Wow, so his real name is Joe Puleo and the event happened in 2007. I will say this about Joe, he is one ambitious guy! You look at all the stuff he sells, the buying and trading he does, and he's all over the place. That was probably $35,000 worth of Cuban cigars he lost.

I wonder if the ivory they seized in his house was legal. Seems impossible that the ivory could be seized if it was obtained legally...

Truthfully, they could have busted many dozens of cue sellers the same way. Years ago, I sold cues on E-bay that had ivory and there was a foreign buyer who bought some of them. I could have been in the same boat as many of us who sold cues would have been.

I read up on the laws and it did not appear that legally obtained ivory that was not a "raw" tusk, was illegal to export. I didn't know it was illegal to export cues (U.S. Law) and I kind of doubt that it is, although I don't doubt that each country has it's own restrictions and illegally shipped cues could be seized.

Chris
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I sold a Scruggs a few months ago that had an ivory Hoppe ring and ivory ferrules in it. Within 5 minutes of posting it I had several replies as to whether or not I would ship it out of the U.S. I told them that I wouldn't because it just wasn't worth the risk on my part, or their part.

It wasn't worth me risking getting in trouble, or dealing with any of the hassles that may come with that cue going through customs. It also wasn't worth it on their part if that cue was seized because they would not be reimbursed if it was seized and they didn't receive the cue.
 
PocketPoint said:
Does ivory make you shoot any better?
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No, but it does look nice. The only time I am interested in ivory is for a Hoppe ring. I don't like it for joints, handles or inlays. I do like it on ferrules, but I use a Predator shaft so that doesn't really matter.
 
I'm not so sure that I would compare buying and selling ivory to rape and murder, but I will say that the buyer has no real definitive way of telling if the ivory is legal or not.

Just because a seller says it is legal doesn't mean that it came to market through natural means. This doesn't mean the seller knows it's illegal either, but someone down the line of supply knows it.

If I were an ivory harvester I would spend an awful lot of time trying to come up with a way to tranquilize elephants so I could cut the tusks off and keep the animal alive. I'm assuming tusks grow back, but I do know that dead animals don't grow back.
 
Thats tough. The only known way to tranquilize an elephant long enuff to cut off his tusks is to give him a hand job.
If he doesn't have a happy ending, you're not going to have one either.
 
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paperwork and a stupid sale

two mistakes

First Joe didn't have his paperwork in order. Second, he sold to someone outside the country. As many of us tell the forums over and over, legal ivory is still illegal to move between or across borders of CITES signees, which are more than 200 countries as I recall.

Nowhere have I read that Joe received illegal ivory nor has any of the hundreds of cue makers and others that bought ivory from Joe complained about "green" ivory that I know of, which is very likely if someone is buying illegal ivory.

Bottom line, Joe didn't have his paperwork in order. He advertised a bit too much and a bit too grandly, plus Joe is a guy that makes enemies. THEN HE WAS SET UP JUST LIKE SOME POOL PLAYERS THAT SO MANY HAVE SYMPATHY FOR WHEN THEY ARE DEALING DOPE! He wasn't dealing in something that harms or kills people, he wasn't dealing in anything illegal from all indications. What he did do was conduct transactions illegally apparently. I say apparently because I am also interested in guns. When the fed's decide to make an example of you the smart thing is to roll over to a plea if you can or they will put you out of business, break you, and leave you deeply in debt.

I didn't read most of this thread so I suspect most of this has already been said in one place or another maybe all in one place. The original charge Joe was set-up on is the same thing or very close to the same thing every person that crosses a border with a cue or anything else with ivory can be charged with. Everybody that buys a cue with ivory from the Philippines or any other country besides their own if either country is a CITES signee is guilty of a similar crime. That ivory letter opener or trinket you flew back from the far east with? A far worse offense because not only did you violate CITES treaties, you almost certainly bought poached ivory, a lot different than what Joe seems to have done, buying legal ivory but handling it improperly.

A shame that enough ivory to make thousands of cues will be warehoused forever or destroyed now. Trading in CITES legal ivory is no more causing the death of elephants than trading in mammoth ivory causes the death of mammoths. Cue builders who want to make quality cues have no use for ivory that isn't decades old. US cue builders have zero real impact on the deaths of elephants.

Despite the size of the fine, what Joe did was a misdemeanor. Fight the feds and risk bankruptcy and being put out of business or roll over. The choices stink but Joe did the smart thing. Many an FFL holder has been put out of business for less. Joe might have a strong case for entrapment and an accidental mistake but it isn't worth the battle even if he does. A local official ordered my business closed immediately in the eighties, which would have put seven people out of work and caused me to go bankrupt because my $15,000 a month in overhead would have mostly remained. My offense? When I dropped my corporation I had became sole owner of I got my business bond in the business name of "Hu's Auto Salvage" instead of "Hu" doing business as "Hu's Auto Salvage"!!

Disclaimer: For anyone that hasn't already figured it out, I like Joe. He has been a favorite supplier for years and has went above and beyond in his dealings with me. I have gotten raw deals from some of the biggest and suppliers with the finest reputations in the business so one that has went above and beyond several times not just in service but in manners that cost him money means something to me.

Hu
 
I like and respect Hu so I'll take his word for it that this guy is ok.

I just won't own any ivory. I think it's bad karma.
 
just a guy like the rest of us

JimS said:
I like and respect Hu so I'll take his word for it that this guy is ok.

I just won't own any ivory. I think it's bad karma.
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Thanks a bunch Jim. In truth Joe is just a guy like the rest of us, well except the gals.. :grin: Some folks like him, some don't. Some report bad dealings with him, I have had great dealings with him as have the vast majority of his customers which is why he is so successful. Being so successful and being a little too much of a self promoter for his own good is what got Joe in trouble I suspect. Also like many a respected cue builder, he might genuinely have not been as aware of the law as he should have been in 2007. Joe is still selling ivory at the same or better prices than ever so I suspect that he has every I dotted and T crossed now, probably has for years.

I strongly agree owning ivory, owning the rare woods in many cues, owning many of the wraps, owning anything is a personal decision. I'm indifferent to legal ivory myself. I don't care if a cue I own has it or not. I am dead against illegal ivory for anything. Although I think that much of the law is stupid or stupidly enforced it is the law. The major issue I have, ivory from elephants that die naturally or must be culled for whatever reasons is usually just as illegal as poached ivory and must be destroyed. That is much like the law in my state that farmers can protect their crops from deer but then the deer can't be used, not even donated. The senseless waste after an animal's death offends me.

You are a person I like and respect also. It is very nice when people can actually talk about things on the forum.

Hu
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
Hahaha, I almost snorked beer thru my nose.

With all the East Indians moving to Canada/USA, I doubt our cow population has anything to worry about. With the other folks, I think our sacred Canadian bacon is safe as well.

I have no use for ivory in a cue, period. If anyone wants to read into that further to understand my stance on killing elephants whether legally culled or poached is ok by me. Yet, I have no problems sinking my teeth into a big rib steak on the weekends. Many abattoirs have less than humane ways of killing the animals. We try and not think about it when we are horking out on Bar B Cue.

Losing that many Cuban cigars makes me weep. They'll be getting passed around at this years Christmas party.

I have no idea why Scotland Yard would be that interested in a couple of cues containing ivory, that they'd spend the time and expense on a sting. You'd think with all the terrorists running around London that they'd have better things to think about.
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England's enforcement priorities have been borked since Tony Blair.
 
supergreenman said:
This is a good thing in my opinion. They should be tracking down his customers too.

Too many people think it's thier god given right to use endangered animal parts for asthetic decorations on thier pool cues.

I'm quite aware that my opinion on this matter is very unpopular on this forum, I can deal with that.

Sometimes you just have to listen to that little voice in your head that tells you right from wrong and not the voice of outrage because your being denied something you have the hard cash to pay for.

This isn't an animal rights issue, it's a right or wrong issue. Buying Ivory is wrong.
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Milking cows is wrong.

Jeff Livingston
 
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