Not A World Straight Pool Championship

The Olympics are crucial to the cuesports whether they ever get in the games or not. Being under the IOC umbrella allows governments and national Olympic committees to provide funds to players for their travel expenses as well as to pay them salaries.

While this does not happen in all countries it does occur in many. So it keeps lots of players traveling around the world to compete.

As for why not allow the DP tournament to be a WC? Because it simply does not meet the standards for the payouts. If you are a promoter who is raising $300,000 for a WC, then other promoters should not be allowed to have a WC for 10% of what you are posting up. The idea is to have prize funds go up in the future, not down.

There have to be standards for WC's. Promoters have to meet those standards. If they do not then the event is not a WC. Very simple, really.

And you do not need the term "World Championship" anyway if it is a discipline that is not currently represented with a WPA tourney. The All-Around champion is generally recognized as the All-around winner at Derby City. Now that they will have two events a year, at least, I do not know who will get to claim the title. Maybe it will be like 1966 when we had three "official" World 14.1 events.

And there is one store of WPA value. Only one undisputed champion in each discipline in each year. Before them we had a multitude of World 9-Ball Championships every year. And no winner could claim to be the World Champ because there were so many of them.
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
The Olympics are crucial to the cuesports whether they ever get in the games or not. Being under the IOC umbrella allows governments and national Olympic committees to provide funds to players for their travel expenses as well as to pay them salaries.

While this does not happen in all countries it does occur in many. So it keeps lots of players traveling around the world to compete.

As for why not allow the DP tournament to be a WC? Because it simply does not meet the standards for the payouts. If you are a promoter who is raising $300,000 for a WC, then other promoters should not be allowed to have a WC for 10% of what you are posting up. The idea is to have prize funds go up in the future, not down.

There have to be standards for WC's. Promoters have to meet those standards. If they do not then the event is not a WC. Very simple, really.

And you do not need the term "World Championship" anyway if it is a discipline that is not currently represented with a WPA tourney. The All-Around champion is generally recognized as the All-around winner at Derby City. Now that they will have two events a year, at least, I do not know who will get to claim the title. Maybe it will be like 1966 when we had three "official" World 14.1 events.

And there is one store of WPA value. Only one undisputed champion in each discipline in each year. Before them we had a multitude of World 9-Ball Championships every year. And no winner could claim to be the World Champ because there were so many of them.
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Jerry, no one is trying to raise $300k for a 14.1 world tournament because it can't be done. If the WPA can cite those who are building up $300k coffers for 14.1 World Tournaments, it's a good idea to list them. That way, maybe companies who are looking to sponsor world 14.1 events know where to send the checks.

Therefore, based on your point-- the WPA feels it's better to have no tournament than one tournament with a champion. If there is a 14.1 event on the planet with a bigger payout than what DP provides, it'd be nice to know where it is.

P.S.

I can't stand CW or DP --- but right is right when it comes to the players.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Jerry, no one is trying to raise $300k for a 14.1 world tournament because it can't be done. ...
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I think the minimum added-money requirement for a 14.1 WC is now $75k. I think that's not out of line or impossible. It's just real hard.
 
Roger Long said:
What gives the IOC the right to hand out rights if they are never going to allow pool into the Olympics? I'm not challenging you, Jerry, I'm challenging the idea that the WPA or anybody else has authority over other pool entities just because they allow themselves to be strung along by the IOC. Has the IOC done anything for pool? Will they ever? Doesn't look like it to me.

Roger
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I concur. They haven't recognized us so why should we recognize them? Besides that, even if pool was an Olympic event, why should the IOC be the ultimate authority over pro pool anyway? Baseball is in the Olympics and I don't see MLB answering to the IOC. Football is not, but I don't see the NFL being dictated to by the IOC just so it can become an Olympic event.

---------

Bob Jewett said:
I think the minimum added-money requirement for a 14.1 WC is now $75k. I think that's not out of line or impossible. It's just real hard.
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Bob, maybe you can clarify this. The way I read the WPA sanctioning guidelines it simply says that WC's are assigned by the WPA. There is no mention of minimum added money in regard to World Championships. It sounds almost arbitrary. The clause in the guidelines related to the $75K added money is for events to be considered for ranking purposes, not specifically for World Championship events.

Maybe the $75K comes in because any World Championship will by definition also be a rankings event, so a WC would also have to qualify under the guidelines for a rankings event. But it is a little murky in the way it's presented in the guidelines. Under the various categories of tournaments for sanctioning, a WC clearly seems to be separate from the rankings event category.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
I think the minimum added-money requirement for a 14.1 WC is now $75k. I think that's not out of line or impossible. It's just real hard.
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It should be low enough where at least one promoter can hit the mark. If years go by and no one hits it... you don't see that as a problem?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
Bob Jewett said:
Um, well, no. They are the recognized world governing body of pool. They are recognized by the IOC as such. Lots of people put in a lot of effort to achieve that recognition. The attitudes in the US are quite a bit different from the rest of the world where such recognition and organization hierarchy is important.
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Yes indeed, I thought everyone would understand I was meerly trying to
illustrate what a dunce the OP is.

As to Pool and the Olympics - nice dream, but it's a wet dream at best.
Pool is abysmal as a spectator sport. Perhaps there is more viewership
interest in other countries, but in America you can't hire main stream
fans to watch Pool.

Dale(who has watched way too much professional Pool)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
If there aren't any other "qualified" WPA-sanctioned world 14.1 tournaments, why wouldn't the WPA sanction the DP tournament? Isn't SOMETHING better than nothing? Why is it better to say, "NOPE-- No champion this year" than to let a promoter do his/her best to make something happen?

Since the WPA set it's new sanctioning guidelines for a world tournament......
.
.
.
HAS ANY

14.1 tournament qualified? Correct me if I'm wrong--- but I don't think so.

Therefore, the WPA is NOT doing pool a favor. If no promoter can put the necessary funds together--- BIG DEAL--- LET THE PLAYERS PLAY!

Who cares about the IOC. The IOC has billiards toilet paper that they use to wipe their asses. Pool will never be in the olympics so why kiss their ass or the WPA's ass.

Whoever wins that tournament is the world 14.1 champion since the best international players are playing and there is NO other wpa-sanctioned 14.1 tournament--- so it is what it is. The players know this, which is why they continue to play in it.

There's no corporate sponsorship in pool in general and even LESS for 14.1 tournaments. The WPA is acting like they don't know this for some reason. Their mandate should be to better/further the sport--- not set pie-in-the-sky added money targets that can't be hit unless a millionaire wants to donate tons of cash because they want to see a tournament get off the ground.

If there ever comes a time when multiple "world 14.1 tournaments" pop-up, the one with the MOST added money should get the honor of the title. If none do--- to say "No champion this year" is a joke and a disgrace.
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...and a great way to kill a sport. The recent world championship where Earl was not invited while no name players were invited who would soil themselves if they had to play Earl was a joke and a disgrace.
 
Does IOC sanction X-games ?

pdcue said:
Yes indeed, I thought everyone would understand I was meerly trying to
illustrate what a dunce the OP is.

As to Pool and the Olympics - nice dream, but it's a wet dream at best.
Pool is abysmal as a spectator sport. Perhaps there is more viewership
interest in other countries, but in America you can't hire main stream
fans to watch Pool.

Dale(who has watched way too much professional Pool)
Click to expand...

Dunce comment was not nice.

As far as abysmal spectator sports go, I relish the curling event every 4 years at the winter games. :rolleyes: Many others could be added.

Just strap on a skateboard while playing and let the X-games take over the sanctioning. Is that all right with you Dale (sanctioner of sanctioners) ?

Anyhow Thanks DP for this annual event, despite hearing M.E. hot mic'd in the bathroom on the quarterfinals DVD from 2006.:eek:
 
it's about the money

I think that it is safe to say that this is what happens when you allow someone to play GOD.

another poster mentioned that this body that governs over sports and has it's minions to follow out it's orders, is what allows for player to be able to travel and such due to backing by their country, but not all. Why should this even happen? if I am Lord of something and my LAW allows for players of a country be able to travel, then why doesn't this rule hold up everywhere? why is it that Charlie's tournament receive this much pressure and scrutiny. Because he doesn't want to buy in to their dictatorship, that's why.

In 2008 the WPA decided to give the World 10-Ball Championships to Raya Sports of the Philippines, run by Yen Makabenta. Matchroom Sport was kept outside. And it was a disaster! The main squad of Philippine players boycotted the event due to a reigning fight between the Federation, run by Yen Makabenta, and the other stall which promotes the players such as Reyes, Bustamante, Gomez, Orcullo etc.. Spectators didn't arrive

Additionally, players had to wait for their prize money somewhere between 3 and 11 months! You might think now that Ian Anderson and the WPA would not sanction the event again if organized by Raya Sports in the following year?! Wrong! Same old same old in the following year and even worse!
 
were is the money going

I learned the saying: “the fish starts smelling first at the head!”. And while it is the BCA (Billiard Congress of America) not doing the right things or anything at all for the US pool scene it is the WPA not doing what it is meant for to do for the world wide pool scene.
While the via smear campaign re-elected president of the WPA, Ian Anderson, jets around the world in Business and first class, nothing has been done in the past 10 years to improve the world stage for pro pool players. Not to mention that the president in a sport mainly played and promoted in the USA, Europe and Asia should not be from Australia. That just costs way too much money and is inefficient.
While 5% of the players' prize money is conducted at the WPA sanctioned events the WPA itself does not guarantee any of the prize money (as it officially used to be). Players even had to sign a paper right before the 2008 WC in Manila which told us that the WPA is not responsible for guaranteeing the prize money! Almost as if they would have know what's going to happen! Besides the Youth World Championships and the maintenance of the official website I can not spot what else the WPA is spending that money on except airfare tickets.
 
Another huge failure of the WPA is the scheduling of "sanctioned" events. Of course it is not the WPA scheduling the events but only sanctioning them. Of course?! Why? Unfortunately the top pros of our sport are not in the lucky position like the drivers of Formula 1 cars. Today's top professional pool players have a tough life getting along with the little money they can win. To win money they first of all have to pay flights and hotels, they have to pay taxes and they have to build up a “pillow” for the time after the career. How much do you think is left for the daily life?! So in my understanding it is the most obvious thing that the WPA has to overtake the responsibility of planning “the tour”. What do I mean by that?
On one hand big events are clashing every now and then, like the Gstaad Swiss Open and the Predator Tour in Manila, “the Masters” in Chesapeake/USA and the World 8-ball Championships in Fujairah. On the other hand, a European or anyother pro player for example has to travel to Valley Forge/USA in the second week of March 2011. Before March 24th he has to back in Europe to play the European Championships. Two days later the Philippine Open is calling before he can fly back to Italy just to make it on time for the Euro Tour. Five days later he should be in Dallas/USA to compete in the Ultimate 10 Ball, leaving right after the closing ceremony to make it not even on time for the Beijing Open in China. All of this in just 7 weeks! (if they really want to compete"
So what is the solution? I guess one obvious possibility would be to do “time and zone areas”. To be more precise, it is necessary to sanction major events on the different continents only in certain time frames. Let's say the major events in Asia are from February till April, in the USA from June till August (nearly every pool hall has AC, in contrast to Europe), in Europe from September/October till November/December. Like this the touring pros could save a ton of money on airfare, the promoters can count with more top players per event and the branding of the players and the tour would be easier: spectators have to take the chance to see the pros, otherwise they have to wait a year.

But all this can only be done by the WPA as the reigning body of the world pool scene! "or the IOC as some mentioned" And as long as amateur managers like Ian Anderson are leading us this will for sure not happen! If you are asking yourself if I want to appeal for the discharge of the WPA president Ian Anderson – yes I am! If we want to keep the chance to have touring pros, huge international events and to see them playing live there has a change to be done. And this change must start with “the head of the fish”!
 
7forlife said:
I think that it is safe to say that this is what happens when you allow someone to play GOD.

another poster mentioned that this body that governs over sports and has it's minions to follow out it's orders, is what allows for player to be able to travel and such due to backing by their country, but not all. Why should this even happen? if I am Lord of something and my LAW allows for players of a country be able to travel, then why doesn't this rule hold up everywhere? why is it that Charlie's tournament receive this much pressure and scrutiny. Because he doesn't want to buy in to their dictatorship, that's why.

In 2008 the WPA decided to give the World 10-Ball Championships to Raya Sports of the Philippines, run by Yen Makabenta. Matchroom Sport was kept outside. And it was a disaster! The main squad of Philippine players boycotted the event due to a reigning fight between the Federation, run by Yen Makabenta, and the other stall which promotes the players such as Reyes, Bustamante, Gomez, Orcullo etc.. Spectators didn't arrive

Additionally, players had to wait for their prize money somewhere between 3 and 11 months! You might think now that Ian Anderson and the WPA would not sanction the event again if organized by Raya Sports in the following year?! Wrong! Same old same old in the following year and even worse!
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I am afraid this subject has gone too far for me to refrain from commenting. The most recent postings which are attacking the WPA are of the 'Don't Let The Facts Get In The Way of A Good Rant variety.

The Manila/Raya sports payment business is well documented. But the fact remain that This company injected close to 2.5 million dollars into the pool economy. WPA instigated.
The World 9 Ball Championship recently paid out $300,000 and look set to pay out more next year. WPA instigated.
The World 8 Ball will take place in the UAE agiain next year and in it's 10th year it will push the sponsorship that attracted over the million dollar mark. WPA instigated.

.
With the currently running World Team tournament, a couple of Ladies events and a growing scene in China on their calendar the WPA are in better shape than they ever were.
So you want to replace Ian Anderson? With whom, I ask you?
Some half baked AZ Forum poster. The President of any sporting body deserves respect and if he travels as frequently as this man does then he is entitled to do it in comfort especially as most of the upgrades that he gets come from Frequent Flyer programs (and sometimes from his own pocket.
The WPA santioning fee is ZERO (not 5%) as stated. There is an entry fee
for their tournaments but that is the norm with any major tournament.

Pool doesn;t have Forest Hills (tennis) or West Palm Beach (Golf) as prestige offces. It is still a kitchen table sport and will firmly remain that all the time that this is the level of debate
 
friends help friends

well PRO9 this is how we learn sir, someone knowing a bit more than the other and willing to share, so that they are both the wiser.

All I wanted was to state there IMO are far greater issues that need/s addressing by the WPA the BCA and the way that others look at things. The OP has faded into the background after realizing that despite peoples dislike for CW they were still looking to at the bigger picture and not making it personal.

I will however, like your feedback on this. if you feel like.

In the past few years I – and not only me – can see a consistent change of rules. New „technology“ led to new rules that balance a disadvantage of the latest new toy. Additional to that no federation or association took the effort to really standardize the rules and regulations.
To show you an example I want to start with this summary of a WPA website:
“(Effective November, 2001)

1. Purpose
The purpose of these specifications shall be to set standards for equipment used at all WPA World Championships, WPA World Tour events and other WPA sanctioned and/or recognized events. These specifications do not necessarily apply to tables manufactured for commercial home use. At its sole discretion, the World Pool-Billiard Association can sanction tournaments on tables not in compliance with these specifications.
…
20. Table Recognized by the WPA
Only tables that are recognized by the WPA can be used at a WPA-sanctioned or recognized event. “
In the past few years I – and not only me – can see a consistent change of rules. New „technology“ led to new rules that balance a disadvantage of the latest new toy. Additional to that no federation or association took the effort to really standardize the rules and regulations.
To show you an example I want to start with this summary of a WPA website:
“(Effective November, 2001)

1. Purpose
The purpose of these specifications shall be to set standards for equipment used at all WPA World Championships, WPA World Tour events and other WPA sanctioned and/or recognized events. These specifications do not necessarily apply to tables manufactured for commercial home use. At its sole discretion, the World Pool-Billiard Association can sanction tournaments on tables not in compliance with these specifications.
…
20. Table Recognized by the WPA
Only tables that are recognized by the WPA can be used at a WPA-sanctioned or recognized event. “
My question at this point is why the heck the WPA and not all of its 1st grade members can not communicate the rules to their players properly? Why do we play on as many different equipments as pool halls we visit? Why do the federations and associations not create proper guidelines so we all know better what to expect


if I touch any ball on the table with my shirt, is it a foul? YES or NO
does the 10-ball count on the break, as a win? YES ____ NO ____
where do you put the 2-ball in a 9-ball rack? YES ____ NO ____
alternate or winner break? YES ____ NO ____
phenolic or not? YES ____ NO ____
rack your own or for each other? YES ____ NO ____
call shot in 10-ball? YES ____ NO ____
is sharking normal? YES ____ NO ____
what happens with the 8-ball going on the break?
if I touch another ball with my cue just when I hit the cueball, is it a foul? YES ____ NO ____

Do we really know the rules? I think most do. Although I have to mention that most rules can change in a 50miles radius. It is important that a sport, that somehow tries to be one, has exact and world wide effective standardized rules. Tournaments must be played the same way all over the planet. It is the WPA's duty to realize this rule book latest by 2012
 
There really are two sides to this. On the one hand I share in the frustration that there isn't the 14.1 WC every year. But I also understand that the WPA is looking longer term/big picture. The point of that side being that the only way ultimately to grow the sport and get the prize money up for the players is to set minimum standards. It's hard to argue with the logic that if someone is allowed to hold a 14.1 WC for less than the minimum, then why wouldn't the promoters of all the other WC disciplines demand their added money requirements be reduced too?

On the subject of sanctioning fees though, I need a little more clarification from Pro9 about the statement there are no fees. It clearly states in the sanctioning guidelines that there is a fee:

IV Sanction fees:

The total cost of sanctioning is negotiated between the WPA and organsier, but will not be less than 5% of total added money in all categories. There are no fees applied to any entry fee money that is added to the prize fund. The sanction fee is limited to a prize fund up to USD 500,000. Sanction fees are not deducted from the advertised added prize money.
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This is where it gets a little murky. Perhaps everything is on the up and up and there are no backroom dealings, but given the perception that stuff goes on in the pool world it would really be in the best interest of the game if the fee was more clearly set in stone (i.e. not negotiated). Then there wouldn't be any perceptions of playing favorites and everything would be more above board and that the deal is in the best interest of the players. The way it is currently structured the WPA seems to leave itself open to questions from anyone disgruntled with the process.

If the sanctioning fee was a set percentage, say 5%, and the qualified bidder who adds the most money would get the event, the players would clearly benefit. I know there are other considerations such as the proposed venue, location, date, etc. but you get the idea.

Theoretically the way it is stated in the guidelines one promoter could offer $75k in added money and $100K to the WPA for sanctioning while another promoter offers to put that into the added money for the players ($175K added) and pay the WPA a 5% fee ($8,750). Which is the better deal for the WPA and which is the better deal for the players? Without saying anything funny goes on, there is the perception that there is a potential conflict of interest.

Now, if there really is no sanctioning fee then fine. But please explain then, the above quote from the WPA website that seems to clearly say there is one.

And BTW, I'm not maintaining that the WPA is not entitled to sanctioning fees. Just that it could be structured better.
 
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WPA sanctioning fees

I hope someone who knows more about this than me will chime in BUT -

For many years, most WPA championships were no entry, the players were invited and earned their way through their past performance. At one time the WPA would 'charge' 5% of the prize fund (which was only the added money).

I believe the only WPA world event that did charge the players was the 14.1. I believe this caused some of the problems that DP has in getting WPA sanctioining. The entry was around $500 per player.

A few years ago, I think the model may have changed. The promoter does not pay a percentage of the added money prize fund to the WPA. Now the players each pay a small sanctioning fee (maybe $100-$200). The big difference is that the players sanctioning fee is not part of the prize fund - and the players have NO entry fee.

Example: $200,000 tournament - 5% fee would have been $10,000.
If 128 players each paid $100, it is now $12,800. But it is
less confusing, and does not affect the prize fund.

The DP tournament is (I believe) the only one that routinely charges an entry fee and that it constitutes the majority of the prize fund. Most tournaments throughout US and other parts of the world do use entry fees to make up the prize fund - but that is not acceptable in a World Championship.

The WPA requires $75,000 ADDED to be a World Championship (in only 14.1). That is a lot different than a $75,000 prize fund - if there are 64 or 96 players each paying $500 to play. That would mean the added money would only be $43K or $27K respectively.

The World Tournament has added $20,000 this year. I believe one year it fell below this threshhold and I believe that was another reason for the non-sanctioning of the event. WPA also does not like World events in pool rooms.

So there were several major issues on why this is not a sanctioned event.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I don't claim tho know all the details but am fairly certain the general info is correct.

And as others have stated, I am glad the event occurs.

Mark Griffin
 
WPA added $ requirements

I think the added money minimum is now $200,000 or $250,000 for 9 & 10-Ball.

Not sure of 8-ball but it is in the same area.

Notice that there were 2 back-to-back events with $300,000 added.

This could changes the complexion of some of the arguments (in my way of thinking).

Jerry F. or others can verify.


Mark Griffin
 
I guess all of Mosconi and Crane's world championships don't count because the WPA didn't sanction them.

The losers in all of this are the players and fans.
 
alstl said:
I guess all of Mosconi and Crane's world championships don't count because the WPA didn't sanction them.

The losers in all of this are the players and fans.
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Al:

That was my point, when I was using the phrase "revisionist history" in post #s 14 and 19.

And yes, the players and fans both lose!

-Sean
 
Mark Griffin said:
I think the added money minimum is now $200,000 or $250,000 for 9 & 10-Ball.

Not sure of 8-ball but it is in the same area.

Notice that there were 2 back-to-back events with $300,000 added.

This could changes the complexion of some of the arguments (in my way of thinking).

Jerry F. or others can verify.


Mark Griffin
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Thanks much for responding to my question.
So that means that the WPA is trying to help out
by having a lower added money figure to get a
sanction for a "World Straight Pool Championship"
Because it seems that they're a lot of people who
seem to think that the WPA is not only not helping
but in the way. I think they need to implement
better guide lines as to what the BCA's duties are
and then put those out so people know what the BCA
is or is not doing.

Also sense the IOC (International Olympic Committee) is
the group that gave the WPA their sanctioning rights
they should step in right away and and make it clear
that if other countries Olympic committee's are helping
their pro players because of the IOC. Then all countries
Olympic committee's should have to help their players
like right here in the U.S.

Other wise all World Championships results are bogus
if other countries are helping out their pro players and
our countries Olympic committee is not. Some other
countries governments already help out their players.
So this means that some countries players are being
helped out by their governments and their Olympic
committee's while American players are being help out
by no one. This is hardly fair to our pro players, there
needs to be a level playing field and then let the cream
rise to the top.
 
Since the 2011 World 8 Ball Championship the WPA Have dropped the 5% fee in favour of a $200 to $300 entry fee, These apply to the World 8 Ball and 9 Ball respectively. These events they run jointly with local promoters. Where they are not involved in the running such as The Mosconi and World Cups they still take the 5% levy. What appears to have escaped many posters on this threaad is the availability (or the lack) of sponsorship. The money is not as readily on tap as they seem to think and the WPA are keeping these events going in the belief that it is easier to seek a rise in sponsorship than to resuscitate a lapsed tournament.
 
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