Post dated checks for final 8 at Master's

[GARY LLOYD]

With the talk of smaller fields and added money... I am surprised no one has mentioned the Seminole Pro Tour and their upcoming schedule. 128 players w/ $12,500 added, 64 players w/ $25,000 added and 64 players (as of now) w/ $50,000 added. Sounds like they are doing the right thing at the right time. Good luck to them.

 

[richiebalto]

With the talk of smaller fields and added money... I am surprised no one has mentioned the Seminole Pro Tour and their upcoming schedule. 128 players w/ $12,500 added, 64 players w/ $25,000 added and 64 players (as of now) w/ $50,000 added. Sounds like they are doing the right thing at the right time. Good luck to them.

THESE TOURNAMENTS are great,i would have to think seminole tribe is losing money here,with all that added money,but i also know that they have billions behind them,now thats just my guess i dont know what they make or what they dont make.

 

[PaulieB]

I apologize in advance, as I got to like page 4 or 5 and just started skimming, so this post my be exceptionally uninformed.

The only thing I could think of is that running a tournament and "predicting" payouts must be a difficult thing. If the payouts were much lower, but immediately paid, would everyone be happy? Let's say instead of 40k first place, because of turnout, etc ... it was only 30k for first.. and all the other payouts were scaled in an equal manner. Now what if these lower amounts were announced ahead of time but the turnout was great ... wouldn't everyone be accusing the person that started the tournament of gouging the players and not paying enough?

You have a person that took a shot, announced amounts ahead of time, and got burned. Instead of being pissed at him, how about realizing that he took a soaking, and is paying out his promised amounts over time? He could of announced much lower prize amounts and paid out the day of the tournament, but instead he TRIED to make it BETTER for the players ... yet all the players are complaining.

Once again, I ask ... If all the payouts were much lower, yet immediately paid, would everyone be happy?

 

[JDB]

The players also need to change something.

I think that the players did change something; only 57 showed up. I believe that is pretty telling...

 

[Mark Griffin]

Tournament payouts

I find it distasteful that a direct competitor to Barry B and his efforts are continually negatively posting on this thread. In a more professional world when some company is having a major problem they're competitors don't openly (except maybe broadcast tv and a couple others) dance on the grave and take the opportunity to extoll their own virtues. They would be counseled instead to let the obvious facts and public dismay stand on its own without their own added little knife twists.

Mlalum,
The only reason I even posted in this thread because I really feel this non- payment stuff damages ALL of pool. I am being injured by this pattern, as is every other presenter of billiard events. That is what I said in my original post.

I do not get along with Tony Annigoni at all, and barely speak with BB. I am not dancing on anyone's grave - nor wishing anybody Bad luck.

Pool will lose players and potential sponsors because of the actions of a few misguided promoters. It is my responsibility to let people know that this behavior is not acceptable. Remember all the crap Makabenta got when he did not pay a couple of years ago?

My goal would to be to have all the promoters work together under the same guidelines. A rising ocean raises all ships.

Some of us are busting our butts (in time and resources) to get this game some credibility. So this type of behavior has no place in my opinion.

I also think the BCA point committee needs to have better guidelines. I know our sport is seriously underfunded, but we cannot sell our soul on some promises.

I would be happy to discuss any thoughts others have at any time. I am easy to contact: markg@playcsipool.com. Or 702-719-7665.

If anyone did take any of my posts as 'offensive' or in bad taste, I apologize, but this is not about competitive juices - this is about the integrity of the entire sport.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI

 

[JAM]

...If anyone did take any of my posts as 'offensive' or in bad taste, I apologize, but this is not about competitive juices - this is about the integrity of the entire sport.

Mr. Griffin, I did not interpret any of your posts or comments on this thread as "offensive" or "in bad taste."

On the contrary, I feel fortunate to have a valued member of the pool community like you participate on this forum.

Though we all have one thing in common, our passion for pool, it is good to read the perspectives of others, whether you are a promoter, a tournament soldier, a railbird, a pool enthusiast, a tournament director, a fan, author, media person, industry member, league player, amateur, social shooter, or road warrior. In fact, I think this is the *best* feature of AzBilliards Discussion Forum.

I mean, geezy peezy, your track record speaks for itself. You don't need to explain a thing. I personally enjoy reading your posts. Most people with your stature in the pool world don't even post on AzBilliards, and if they do, it's once in a blue moon.

Thank you for your extremely informative posts, as well as your contributions to the pool world. Your activity in AzBilliards makes this a better forum.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

Interesting thread. I am reminded about what I just posted in another thread about the new pool movie.

We as pool enthusiasts find it difficult that mainstream America doesn't seem to accept pool as a sport. We are, indeed, a minority in this respect when it comes to our attention to pool.

A Chinese man wanted to bring fame to his area by building the largest mall in the world, and he succeeded in building it, but that wasn't enough: Build it and they will come.

I have always been impressed with how Allen Hopkin's Super Billiards Expo pro event player roster not only fills up long before, but there's a waiting list of players eager to compete. I'm not sure what the magic ingredient is that makes players pay in advance to his pro tournament.

The same holds true for Mike Zuglan's $25,000-added Turning Stone Casino tournamaents. They fill up before the day of the event, and there, too, is a waiting list of players hoping to get in.

Barry Behrman continues to pour money and hard work into pool. He's done so for many years. I will continue to applaud his efforts and hope he keeps it going. The U.S. Open is probably my favorite tournament, bar none, because of the atmosphere. Virginia people and their Southern hospitality make it special for me.

I am nothing more than a mere railbird and not a pro competitor in pool. With more and more events going overseas to the ASEAN region of the world, I am cognizant of the fact that the United States continues to pale in comparison when it comes to major pro events on American soil.

It's easy to throw stones at an event when things go awry. Who could have predicted 9/11 when the 2001 U.S. Open attendance suffered?

At least Barry is still out there giving it his all. Yes, it is a disappointment that the players don't get their cheese immediately upon completion, but the success of this event was compromised due to logistics, one being the 2011 World 8-Ball championship occurring within the same time frame.

If you want to throw stones at anyone, it should be the shameful BCA (Billiards Congress of America) organization, the North American representative in professional pool, and the WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association), the "international governing body of pool-billiard sports."

What has the WPA done for American pool lately? They sure do have the WPA representation of its members present at tournaments around the world, and as we all know, expenses to attend world events ain't cheap. That's why we only have a handful of American pros representing the United States. I'd even venture to guess there's more WPA reps at world pool events than actual American pros.

There are three types of people in this world: those who watch things happen (railbirds like me :grin-square, those who wondered what happened, and those who make things happen. Barry makes things happen, and I hope he keeps it going. With regional tours banning pro players from competing in their tournaments, professional pool need more Barrys in our country. The existing lot of American pro players is continuing to dwindle, in case you haven't noticed.

And speaking as someone who lives on the East Coast, I would like to see more pool happenings out here.

I really like what you have to say about this matter. I am of the same opinion. I just watched a trailer for a new movie about to be released. The first thought that came to my head was..great another movie depicting pool in a negative light. From what I saw in the trailer was gambling , violence , and cocaine use. I can see why pool stays in the state of near death. Sports that fill seats make money. Networks make money on advertising. Question , how do promoters fill the seats with negative advertising. Be it far from me to know the answers, but first you must ask the right questions.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

And by the way, Barry has guts , vision and passion. I'm sure he knows the outcome of the deal when he puts it together. Those who fail to plan, plan to fail. But he still puts it all on the line to keep it going. We are talking about what would be considered in any sport the creme de' creme . The U.S. Open . Think about if there wasn't one.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

Now it's the Masters, well ,buckle your seat belts. He will get this done to

 

[justadub]

Mlalum,
The only reason I even posted in this thread because I really feel this non- payment stuff damages ALL of pool. I am being injured by this pattern, as is every other presenter of billiard events. That is what I said in my original post.

I do not get along with Tony Annigoni at all, and barely speak with BB. I am not dancing on anyone's grave - nor wishing anybody Bad luck.

Pool will lose players and potential sponsors because of the actions of a few misguided promoters. It is my responsibility to let people know that this behavior is not acceptable. Remember all the crap Makabenta got when he did not pay a couple of years ago?

My goal would to be to have all the promoters work together under the same guidelines. A rising ocean raises all ships.

Some of us are busting our butts (in time and resources) to get this game some credibility. So this type of behavior has no place in my opinion.

I also think the BCA point committee needs to have better guidelines. I know our sport is seriously underfunded, but we cannot sell our soul on some promises.

I would be happy to discuss any thoughts others have at any time. I am easy to contact: markg@playcsipool.com. Or 702-719-7665.

If anyone did take any of my posts as 'offensive' or in bad taste, I apologize, but this is not about competitive juices - this is about the integrity of the entire sport.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI

You have nothing to apologize for, Mark. Not only were your comments reasonable and respectfully stated, but they were also 100% spot on.

We need your voice here, to remind folks there are people involved in pool that are trying to make a difference. And want to make a difference. And that will affect all of us.

Continued good luck and success.

(Coming from someone who doesn't play in BCApl. No vested interest here.)

 

[oldzilla]

Have you read this yet !

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=222992

It is Marco Tschudi's blog about other parts of the pool world.

AND it sounds like things aren't any better there !

 

[decent dennis]

Not all checks are clearing on March 15th. As a matter of fact only one. They are stretched out until April 12th according to press release.

Quote: "Shannon and myself wrote eight checks that will be 100% good for 3/15/11, 3/22/11, 3/29/11, 4/5/11 and 4/12/11"

S.G.

personally ,i think this is what mlalum is talking about. but i could be wrong.

 

[JCIN]

personally ,i think this is what mlalum is talking about. but i could be wrong.

Since when is stating the facts as presented in a press release by the party in question a bad thing ?

LOL...Berhman fires yet another air rocket but Sunny is the bad guy. Love the way this place works sometimes.

 

[decent dennis]

i'm not saying she is 'the bad guy'.i just see her as egging it on.i could be wrong but it is my opinion.

 

[MikeM]

I find it distasteful that a direct competitor to Barry B and his efforts are continually negatively posting on this thread. In a more professional world when some company is having a major problem they're competitors don't openly (except maybe broadcast tv and a couple others) dance on the grave and take the opportunity to extoll their own virtues. They would be counseled instead to let the obvious facts and public dismay stand on its own without their own added little knife twists.

Amen. I find it distasteful and disgusting. I have been a fan of Mark Griffin's in the past but I am livid at his and Sunny's piling on in this thread. Beyond unprofessional.


Where was CSI this weekend? How many CSI tourneys are there this year? like, 4?!? That doesn't quite make a professional tour that pays the bills now does it? $25,000 delayed beats nothing - or am I wrong here? So who's going to fill in those gaps? Barry Behrman for one.

As stated in numerous posts in this thread and others - the players know what they get when they sign on with Barry. And they know they will be paid - eventually. Yeah he overextends and over promises - so what? As Barry himself stated NO ONE has put more money in pool players hands than him. NO ONE. Can anyone dispute that? His heart is always in the right place. He loves pool. So he's not perfect. Should we just sit around and wait for CSI to expand to 25 tourneys a year?

Pool needs a real tour. Something the casual fan can follow and relate to other sports. To do that you need TV which means lots of money. Until someone is willing to invest lots of money (and doesn't bail like a certain author) you get the mini-tours and the sporadic tournaments. And the players will keep flocking to them and taking whatever the promoters hand out. If we didn't have people like Barry who love pool and stick their necks out, we'd be left with not much.

So keep on piling on. One day you'll succeed in driving Barry out and then come October we'll really hear the players and fans crying when there's no US Open.

 

[dardusm]

Excellent points Roy. I'll even take it a step further and say that we (pool enthusiasts) have a part to play in helping the game/sport grow. How many here have went to a youth club or YMCA and worked with the kids on promoting pool? Coco Cowboy brought this point up awhile back. You don't have to be a pro to give back.

Very well written!

I've tried to get the top 16 players in Norway to visit youthclubs 4 times a year. Youthclubs in Norway normally have a pooltable, but no one knows how to use it.

If those 16 players visited 1 youthclub each, 4 times a year, showing them some tricks, hold a tournament for them etc, we might get 50 new youth players every year, maybe even more.

But those 16 players just laugh at me when I say this, because "there's nothing in it for me".

Well, if they would listen to me and do this, we would have monthly ranking tournaments with 250 players in Norway in 2025, instead of 30-80 players like it is today.

Look at the FA Premier League, perhaps the most successful sports-industry in the world, English soccer.

30 years ago they travelled around all over Europe during their off-season and played friendly matches almost for free. They did this to market themselves, their club and the product they had. Later on they travelled to Asia, and now they travel to America.

FA Premier League have like 10-12 matches broadcasted live every single week from August till May all over the world, attracting hundreds of thousands spectators from all over the world every single week to their games.

Other great soccer-nations like Spain, Italy and Germany never cared about travelling around and marketing their product, and they are not even close to the FA Premier League when it comes to popularity, money and world-wide interest.

When the pro and semipro poolplayers realize that if they each teach 50 kids to play each year, many of those kids will pay entries to local, regional and national tournaments the coming years. If they are smart, they can sell clothes, poolcues etc to them too

 

[dardusm]

Amen. I find it distasteful and disgusting. I have been a fan of Mark Griffin's in the past but I am livid at his and Sunny's piling on in this thread. Beyond unprofessional.


Where was CSI this weekend? How many CSI tourneys are there this year? like, 4?!? That doesn't quite make a professional tour that pays the bills now does it? $25,000 delayed beats nothing - or am I wrong here? So who's going to fill in those gaps? Barry Behrman for one.

As stated in numerous posts in this thread and others - the players know what they get when they sign on with Barry. And they know they will be paid - eventually. Yeah he overextends and over promises - so what? As Barry himself stated NO ONE has put more money in pool players hands than him. NO ONE. Can anyone dispute that? His heart is always in the right place. He loves pool. So he's not perfect. Should we just sit around and wait for CSI to expand to 25 tourneys a year?

Pool needs a real tour. Something the casual fan can follow and relate to other sports. To do that you need TV which means lots of money. Until someone is willing to invest lots of money (and doesn't bail like a certain author) you get the mini-tours and the sporadic tournaments. And the players will keep flocking to them and taking whatever the promoters hand out. If we didn't have people like Barry who love pool and stick their necks out, we'd be left with not much.

So keep on piling on. One day you'll succeed in driving Barry out and then come October we'll really hear the players and fans crying when there's no US Open.

Livid? Really? Calling out one of the best promoters of the game because he stated facts about BB. I was lucky enough to attend/play in the US Open this year. It was one of the best tournaments that I've been too. But that shouldn't give BB a pass on not paying the players on time as promised. He made it a point to promise to pay the players in Cash at the Open this past year but it didn't happen for the top finishers AND the crowd was awesome.

Do I want the US Open to dissolve? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that BB doesn't deserve some criticism.

 

[satman]

I like this post

Yeah , often wondered how these guys that provide tables make a living with the costs you just described , every match isn't hill-hill . I believe you said that Kamui and BadBoys made it possible for you to stream the bar table championships ? Just curious , but how many players have walked up to you and said , hey , here are a few dollars , and thanks for promoting the game ?


How many in the industry have asked you for a free endorsement of their product or book , not you personally , just the air time ? Any one asked you to guest commentate in order to promote something or themselves and not even bought you a meal ? Anyone you know that is well off financially always showing up at events wanting freebies and self promotion ?


My brother has been a self employed painter since his early 20's , he is in his late 50's now , he struggled and worked for low wages trying to support 5 kids , he tried to bid jobs as the middle or low bid and was always struggling . One day he woke up and said if i can't make a living doing this i need to start doing something else . He started bidding high purposely to make sure he covered his ass/plus.

He got just as much work , but he always had customers who would do him a favor by figuring his costs for him , in their mind they had his expenses figured and could not understand why he would bid so much . They didn't see his costs to provide medical/dental care for his children , vehicle , insurance , gas expenses etc .



If pool ever has a benefactor as far as a viable pro tour goes , Paul Allen saved what is left of the PBA they will dictate everything and the players will play by their rules or not , unless there are competing tours that give the player an option .

There are lots of players nationwide that would be competitive if the money was there but can't devote the time to the game because it doesn't pay . If you restrict the field to 64 just watch the politics that would go on to decide who was eligible to enter , and what organizations ratings would count .

Appreciate the streams you and others provide .

Especially the part about following the rules. If a person comes along, who has a clue, and invests for the long term, he could eventually reap the rewards. But, when the tour is organized, it must be someone who has some idea how the pool players will try and work the system. Not like KT, offering bonus money for banking the 8 ball in..... They have to institute strict rules of behaviour from the start, and enforce them for ALL PLAYERS.. If the money is there, and qualifiers for a chance to earn a spot on the tour, you would see a lot of unknown players come out to play. ONE main tour, with enough dough for the top 64 players to make a living, not just gas money, would be a good start.

 

[gamemaker]

These are facts

Since when is stating the facts as presented in a press release by the party in question a bad thing ?

LOL...Berhman fires yet another air rocket but Sunny is the bad guy. Love the way this place works sometimes.

Entry fee for 2011 Masters...cost...$500 My horse having his connecting flight from DC to Newark cancelled...cost$65.72 in unexpected gas cash! Finding out my horses luggage and cues didnt quite make it out of Dubai with his flight...cost...218 phone calls and 6 extra hours at the airport! Driving thru a noreaster from DC to Chesapeake...$22.15 in gas cash!Getting a call from the airlines that the cues and luggage are waiting for us at terminal 4 the airport...cant put a price on that!Getting to the norfolk airport and searching around terminal 4 for an hour to then find out that the terminal 4 there talking about is in raleigh/durham...YOU CANT PUT A F CKIN price on that!Driving to and calling the Norfolk airport 6322 times searching for the phantom cues...$14.70 in gas cash!Watching my horse scurry around trying to find a broom hes gonna be forced to play with...cost...i really dont wanna talk about it!Watchin my horse not beable do wat he wants to do with the q ball cuz hes handcuffed...cost...Do i even gotta... Watchin him take his knife to the gun fight with alex,earl,dennis,johnny(well u get the picture)...cost...cant puta price on it! After goin thru all this and somehow seeing my horse get 7/8th with johnny and to then go thru the BARRY TELLING US TO SEE SHANNON,SHANNON TELLING US TO SEE BARRY,MIKE TELLING US TO SEE IKE,MICKEY TELLING US TO SEE DONALD,MUTT TELLING US TO SEE JEFF,BARTRAM TELLING ME HE ROBBED ME (WELL I THINK U GET THE PICTURE)...COST...im probably gonna need bail money! Knowing that my horse got a check 10 years ago from this same promoter(or should i say that wonderful human being he calls his son) that NEVVVVVVVVVER CASHHHHHED...cost...i think im gonna need treatment!!!!! Being with my HORSE and going thru all of this with him and still we laugh...NOW THAT FRIENDSHIP truley is PRICELESS! My horse letting me move in with him cuz i cant seem to get my girl to understand why i do this and all my sh t was on the porch when i got back...cost...to be continued

 

[JCIN]

Amen. I find it distasteful and disgusting. I have been a fan of Mark Griffin's in the past but I am livid at his and Sunny's piling on in this thread. Beyond unprofessional.


Where was CSI this weekend? How many CSI tourneys are there this year? like, 4?!? That doesn't quite make a professional tour that pays the bills now does it? $25,000 delayed beats nothing - or am I wrong here? So who's going to fill in those gaps? Barry Behrman for one.

As stated in numerous posts in this thread and others - the players know what they get when they sign on with Barry. And they know they will be paid - eventually. Yeah he overextends and over promises - so what? As Barry himself stated NO ONE has put more money in pool players hands than him. NO ONE. Can anyone dispute that? His heart is always in the right place. He loves pool. So he's not perfect. Should we just sit around and wait for CSI to expand to 25 tourneys a year?

Pool needs a real tour. Something the casual fan can follow and relate to other sports. To do that you need TV which means lots of money. Until someone is willing to invest lots of money (and doesn't bail like a certain author) you get the mini-tours and the sporadic tournaments. And the players will keep flocking to them and taking whatever the promoters hand out. If we didn't have people like Barry who love pool and stick their necks out, we'd be left with not much.

So keep on piling on. One day you'll succeed in driving Barry out and then come October we'll really hear the players and fans crying when there's no US Open.

Based on your methods Trudeau is the best thing to ever happen to pool. He put more money in players pockets than anyone ever has. Took a couple years but most of it got paid. The fact that it completely turned the pool world upside down evidently doesn't matter though.

No one is hating on Barry. I like the guy. His passion for pool is undeniable. The posts made by Mark in this thread look to me like a promoter with more invested in the pro game than anyone else in this thread trying to make a point that this stuff has gone on too long and actually has come to be an accepted way of doing business. That way of doing business is detrimental to future opportunities.

As for where CSI was this weekend they were probably unpacking stuff from the USBTC where they added over $25K total and planning for May when they will have a $10K Added US Open One Pocket, $25K Added US Open 10 Ball and a little amateur event with about 7000 total entries that pays out $750,000 in total money. All of those events are paid in cash on site.

Besides who the hell said anyone has a responsibility to fund a pro tour? I swear some of the ideas people come up with just make me shake my head. Barry isn't the one you need to worry about getting tired of the BS and walking away.