Ronnie Wiseman stiff's me for $3900

iusedtoberich said:
My reply based on personal experience: Why its ok to play a known stiffer:

Do you gamble? I ask because your statement seems to come from a belief that we live in a perfect fantasy world...
...I'd also say that it sucks teh OP got stiffed. But he did win the MOST he could that night (he busted 2 people). He might still be down lifetime to Ronnie, but he did the best he could that night, which was get ALL the money.
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Couldn't have said it any better.

His lifetime winnings must be like 4 hot dogs, 3 sodas and a sandwich.
 
iusedtoberich said:
My reply based on personal experience: Why its ok to play a known stiffer:

Do you gamble? I ask because your statement seems to come from a belief that we live in a perfect fantasy world.

I think its a fair assumption that way more than half of the gamblers in the world, at pool, cards, sports, golf, ANYTHING, have welched on a bet at least once in their life. I bet the percentage is 90%. Remember ,I said at least once in their life. So if the "saint gambler" black balled every person that welched on a bet, there would be NO action ANYWHERE in the world! You would only have the people living in a fantasy world betting hot dogs and sodas on a game of pool.

I'm not a card player but I always hear people say to maximize their wins and minimize their losses when playing hands. I'll try to relate that to pool gambling. The most you can win is what a guy has in his pocket WHILE you are playing him. Don't ever count on him paying the next day. Now, if a guy owes you but has some cash, he will rather play someone else than pay you off. That is just life. So rather than make a stink about getting the past money he owes you, you can go after his NEW money.


Let me give you an example. I have a customer I bust every time we play. (Total sucker). We always pay after every game. The last game is of course always an air shot by him, and is usually settled up at the beginning of the next time we play. We've been doing this for 2 years. Now the guy's financial situation has recently changed, and his income potential is much less than before. So he asks to play without settling up the last game from the prior session, and instead settle up that game at the end of the current session. I say sure, and I beat him for all the money in his pocket, 600, plus a new air barrel. So now he owes me two barrels, one from the first session, and one from the second. Now we are playing pretty high, and the 2 air barrels amount to $500 total.

So the next week he is still broke and plays a loser at teh poolroom who has no gambling expereice completely on the wire. It starts a small game of $30, and quickly gets out of hand and the bet is $60 and another 30 on the side. At the end he owes something like $400. I'm laughing on the inside cause I know he is broke and can't pay, while the guy he is playing has no clue he is broke. So that is that, they get stiffed, cause the guy is broke, and they were too naive to pay each game.

Now a week later he calls me up and asks to play. I say sure, and that he doesn't have to pay me the $500 he owes me, unless he beats me real bad. I also say lets go to a different pool room so the guys he owes money to won't bother us. So we play, and I win $800 from him betting $200 a game. He is bust and asks me to go on the wire. I say ok. Now I KNOW I won't get this extra cash, but I go on the wire to make the game CLOSER. I won 4 games in about 5 hours to bust him before we went on the wire. Then we went on the wire and I made it go back and forth for 5 MORE hours. So while the end result was the same money, I won 4 total games in 10 hours instead of 5, which makes the game seem much fairer to him when we negotiate the next time he has cash. Now keep in mind this is a game I am completely controlling.

So why say all this. By letting the guy get away with the air barrels he owes TO ME, and by not caring about the OTHER PEOPLE he stiffed, I got an extra 1400 from him (600 first time and 800 second time in above two sessions.) So to use the poker analogy above, I maximized my win by not caring about the money he owed me.

The guy he stiffed and the side better (400 total) won't play him unless he pays them first. So from HIS point of view, why would he pay them and be broke again when he can start on clean slate with me?

And from MY point of view, I only care about what he has in his pocket NOW, and I will get it any way possible. Its my right! If I cry for him to settle up, I'll never get it. But if I play him for it, it will all be mine. Now remember, this case is a situation I have complete control over. I can't let a few air barrels cost me the chance to win thousands more. That would be foolish.

Now some of you will say I'm crazy. But I think many of the experiecend lifelong gamblers who made the most money gambling during their pool careers will totally agree with me.

I'd also say that it sucks teh OP got stiffed. But he did win the MOST he could that night (he busted 2 people). He might still be down lifetime to Ronnie, but he did the best he could that night, which was get ALL the money.
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Sage advice when dealing with clueless, repeat customers. Not so much when in action with road ho's that have more moves than ELGIN BAYLOR.

(IMO)
 
ribdoner said:
Sage advice when dealing with clueless, repeat customers. Not so much when in action with road ho's that have more moves than ELGIN BAYLOR.

(IMO)
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But he knows his customer.

If it was some road guy he didn't know, the money would be posted to prevent the stiffing.
 
ribdoner said:
Sage advice when dealing with clueless, repeat customers. Not so much when in action with road ho's that have more moves than ELGIN BAYLOR.

(IMO)
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Great point. I don't mess with roadies (I'm a weak player), but if I did, there is no way I would extend them air barrels. Post the first game, and once they run out of cash, I quit. Especially if its a stranger, they would have no justification of asking you to let them go on the wire.

Now in the OP's case, Ronnie was not a stranger, but is certainly a hardened gambler who knows what to do to survive.
 
iusedtoberich said:
My reply based on personal experience: Why its ok to play a known stiffer:

Do you gamble? I ask because your statement seems to come from a belief that we live in a perfect fantasy world.

I think its a fair assumption that way more than half of the gamblers in the world, at pool, cards, sports, golf, ANYTHING, have welched on a bet at least once in their life. I bet the percentage is 90%. Remember ,I said at least once in their life. So if the "saint gambler" black balled every person that welched on a bet, there would be NO action ANYWHERE in the world! You would only have the people living in a fantasy world betting hot dogs and sodas on a game of pool.

I'm not a card player but I always hear people say to maximize their wins and minimize their losses when playing hands. I'll try to relate that to pool gambling. The most you can win is what a guy has in his pocket WHILE you are playing him. Don't ever count on him paying the next day. Now, if a guy owes you but has some cash, he will rather play someone else than pay you off. That is just life. So rather than make a stink about getting the past money he owes you, you can go after his NEW money.


Let me give you an example. I have a customer I bust every time we play. (Total sucker). We always pay after every game. The last game is of course always an air shot by him, and is usually settled up at the beginning of the next time we play. We've been doing this for 2 years. Now the guy's financial situation has recently changed, and his income potential is much less than before. So he asks to play without settling up the last game from the prior session, and instead settle up that game at the end of the current session. I say sure, and I beat him for all the money in his pocket, 600, plus a new air barrel. So now he owes me two barrels, one from the first session, and one from the second. Now we are playing pretty high, and the 2 air barrels amount to $500 total.

So the next week he is still broke and plays a loser at teh poolroom who has no gambling expereice completely on the wire. It starts a small game of $30, and quickly gets out of hand and the bet is $60 and another 30 on the side. At the end he owes something like $400. I'm laughing on the inside cause I know he is broke and can't pay, while the guy he is playing has no clue he is broke. So that is that, they get stiffed, cause the guy is broke, and they were too naive to pay each game.

Now a week later he calls me up and asks to play. I say sure, and that he doesn't have to pay me the $500 he owes me, unless he beats me real bad. I also say lets go to a different pool room so the guys he owes money to won't bother us. So we play, and I win $800 from him betting $200 a game. He is bust and asks me to go on the wire. I say ok. Now I KNOW I won't get this extra cash, but I go on the wire to make the game CLOSER. I won 4 games in about 5 hours to bust him before we went on the wire. Then we went on the wire and I made it go back and forth for 5 MORE hours. So while the end result was the same money, I won 4 total games in 10 hours instead of 5, which makes the game seem much fairer to him when we negotiate the next time he has cash. Now keep in mind this is a game I am completely controlling.

So why say all this. By letting the guy get away with the air barrels he owes TO ME, and by not caring about the OTHER PEOPLE he stiffed, I got an extra 1400 from him (600 first time and 800 second time in above two sessions.) So to use the poker analogy above, I maximized my win by not caring about the money he owed me.

The guy he stiffed and the side better (400 total) won't play him unless he pays them first. So from HIS point of view, why would he pay them and be broke again when he can start on clean slate with me?

And from MY point of view, I only care about what he has in his pocket NOW, and I will get it any way possible. Its my right! If I cry for him to settle up, I'll never get it. But if I play him for it, it will all be mine. Now remember, this case is a situation I have complete control over. I can't let a few air barrels cost me the chance to win thousands more. That would be foolish.

Now some of you will say I'm crazy. But I think many of the experiecend lifelong gamblers who made the most money gambling during their pool careers will totally agree with me.

I'd also say that it sucks teh OP got stiffed. But he did win the MOST he could that night (he busted 2 people). He might still be down lifetime to Ronnie, but he did the best he could that night, which was get ALL the money.
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You handled that perfectly. I new a bookie that had a guy who could not pick a winning game to save his life. The bookie would occasionally pay the guy for hitting a loser. He would just walk up and say your team made the spread last night and pay him off.
 
Roadkill said:
I'm sure Ronnie's good for this debt. He's probably just waiting on his royalty check from ESPN. Did he promise to mail you the money?
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Maybe he has to bet more of his non existent money to win enough to pay ShawnD. :(
 
JAM said:
No matter what anyone writes, the words will be ripped apart and interpreted the way one wants to on this forum. Business as usual, as they say.

I was relaying Ronnie's side of the happenings, though initially I must admit that I was, in fact, hesitant to do so, mainly because of what will inevitably transpire on this thread hereafter.

I have no dog in this fight. Ronnie Wiseman is a friend, and I was presenting his words to this forum at his request. It is unfortunate that he cannot write on the forum in his own name, but it just ain't possible at this time.

I don't think Ronnie would make it up about the pool room being robbed at gunpoint, though.

JAM
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And what does the robbery have to do with RW stiffing someone? It sounds like there were two robberies to me.
 
BVal said:
I didn't say there was a fight. I just said he was your dog. You chose to come on here and speak for him. It's really pretty simple.
I am just having a conversation and expressing my opinions in a friendly manner. I am not sure how that is a fight.

Please Advise :)

BVal
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Here how it works with JAM. If you don't praise her post and agree with her she thinks you're fighting and hits the bad rep button.:eek:
 
Pii said:
Here how it works with JAM. If you don't praise her post and agree with her she thinks you're fighting and hits the bad rep button.:eek:
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And here's how it works with Pii -- "Pii" LOL. If he's not slamming Keith McCready with lies and mean-spirited comments, something which he has done NUMEROUS TIMES in the past on this forum, he then takes a stab at JAM. Business as usual for Pii on AzBilliards today. Looking forward to your next slam, Pii!

JAM
 
Wouldn't it be nice if a thread could stay on topic & not get hijacked. You would think that the quote 'respected' posters wouldn't turn every thread they post in, into their own personal history lesson to the wrongs they feel that have been done - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


By the way, the special of the day is the JAM Pii for dessert. Only $3.95
 
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watchez said:
Wouldn't it be nice if a thread could stay on topic & not get hijacked. You would think that the quote 'respected' posters wouldn't turn every thread they post in, into their own personal history lesson to the wrongs they feel that have been done - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


By the way, the special of the day is the JAM Pii for dessert. Only $3.95
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Is Ronnie buying dessert? :grin:
 
BVal said:
Exactly you are representing Ronnie's side for him. He is your dog.
Do you think he is still a great guy even though he air-barrelled this guy? Remember whether it is $500 or $3900. It is still an air-barrell.

BVal
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You are dead right BVAL. everybody wonders why pool has no money in it. People are coming on here and defending these guys!! R u f***ing kidding me
 
ShawnD said:
To clear up a few things...

1st- Smorgass bored has it figured out to the T.
2nd He tried to run his debit card on my credit card machine. We agreed that it would be for a pool table purchase if anything came up about it. And if you have enough money then you can run a debit card for whatever.
3rd- If him and Scott had a different deal then i dont know. I dont want to hurt anyones imagine that is innocent. I only know what was said in front of me with both of them side by side. And that was i will stand good for the debt as soon as the bank opens. That came out of Ronnies mouth.
4th- I already stated that i let the coin keep moving only because Ronnie said i would be dead wrong if i didnt let him continue to run the coin and pay off the following day. I knew he only had about 2 dimes in cash left. I didnt think there would be a problem with getting paid or I would have just quit.
5th- After he tried to let me run the card and it was declined, he asked if he could just wire transfer the money and ask for my personal info.
6th- The second day after playing in the pool room in front of everyone including scott he said he would make everything right the next morning. After almost a week and now that scott is also gone he is trying to pull the move. Thats all it is.

I dont mind anyone posting on his behalf but he will deny it to the end now.

About the robbery at the pool room. Yes, bad as i hate to say it, it's true. A guy came in at closing and robbed the bartender for the money in the register. He didnt hurt anyone until the off duty security officer tried taking the gun from him while trying to leave and the gun accidently went off shooting him in the leg. The place has been open for ten years and has never had anything like this happen. All the other road players were there for another week enjoying the place. Ronnie is just doing what he can to try and hurt my image. It is the truth about the robbery but it does not hurt my image. It happens everyday in different towns. I am not proud of it but it is the truth and cannot do anything about it. There have been thousands of road players come in my place and win tons of cash mainly from lil john and have never had a problem with robbery.
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I went in this pool room, the night after the robbery. Shawn is portraying his pool room just as it is. I have NEVER heard of anything like this happening in his pool room before. The only robberies I have heard of in his pool room has been Lil John getting heisted but it was on the green felt and the weapon was a cue stick. Unfortunately, I never had the stick nor the money to get any of Lil John's cash. :smile:

I don't know much about anything as far as who said what but I can say that Scott mentioned to me that he had lost a lot of money with Ronnie Wiseman and he was wondering how he was going to get it back. Scott Frost didn't say precisely how he lost the money but if I were going to bet on who's word I would take, it would be Shawn's and he and I aren't good friends. We're not enemies either, just passing pool players in the night. :smile: Shawn might know how to match up but I haven't heard of him being a bald-faced liar either and I've never heard of him stiffing anybody. Shawn's reputation is pristine as far as I know.
just sayin......

JoeyA (and NO, I have never gambled with Shawn, borrowed money from him or gotten free pool time) :grin:
 
watchez said:
Wouldn't it be nice if a thread could stay on topic & not get hijacked. You would think that the quote 'respected' posters wouldn't turn every thread they post in, into their own personal history lesson to the wrongs they feel that have been done - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


By the way, the special of the day is the JAM Pii for dessert. Only $3.95
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But that's what happens when you have BANNED men posting, Watchez.

You, of all people, should know that very well.

I was only relaying Ronnie Wiseman's side of this story, at Ronnie Wiseman's request.

I am not responsible for the attacks on me personally by the usual cuprits. If you do a little history on Pii's account, you can read his words about Keith McCready and myself. What was his contribution to this thread? It was to target me. Mission accomplished.

You take potshots at me yourself when the mood suits you. I'm used to it from you, though. I have been on the butt end of your comments for years now on the Internet, as has my boyfriend.

JAM
 
watchez said:
No, the second post/reply that JAM always makes towards corvette1340 whenever they have a 'discussion' is that he is a 5 time banned member.

I think she has made her point but she likes to make it over and over again.
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I thought he was banned 1339 times before... If it's only 5 times I have absolutely NO idea what his username means...
 
thebighurt said:
what is the exchange rate for Canadian air barrels to American air barrels?
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It is still and always has been one beat down per.

I don't care what the amount is or how much was won before, I can't believe anyone would take up for someone firing an air barrell. The argument has been made that these players have to make a living ... well, so does the guy they are playing. If the players were in such dire need of money then they should get a j-o-b. If they don't have one, don't complain about the pay of being a pool pro and don't skip out on debts.
 
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