There is validity in that argument if he was the only one up in arms here. And don't think that because there are only a few voicing their opinions, that there aren't others who feel just as strongly, who prefer to keep their opinions to themselves.
Swanee payouts
- Thread starter Keith Jawahir
- Start date
There is validity in that argument if he was the only one up in arms here. And don't think that because there are only a few voicing their opinions, that there aren't others who feel just as strongly, who prefer to keep their opinions to themselves.
You guys....
Everyone agrees there is no money in pool and when organizations form and promote pool at a financial loss, everyone gets all smart and calculates that there is some hidden pot of gold and we are being taken.
The payouts are getting smaller bc the pool community can't come together and see beyond there small minds. If the payouts were a $100,000 I bet no one would bat an eye to do the math and see how much was made. But bc it's less then what some make in month, all of a sudden "where did all the money go?"
You guys fight and argue to ur hearts content and when u come up with a solution to fix pool get back to us. Think before you speak, CSI who hasn't given us any reason to doubt that they are pushing the sport in the right direction, is all of a sudden stealing from us?
What do u guys think they get rich off this stuff? If so then why aren't there more events, so they can keep fleecing us? Why isn't this sh!t on every corner like the f'king McDonalds cups you bring into the event?
Open you're eyes and know when you're being taken and when you are the one taking from yourself!! As much as you guys wanna claim being hustlers, gamblers, and matchmakers you can't even figure out who the sucker is.
Thanks CSI for doing what you do. And f,k everyone else for what they do!
Everyone agrees there is no money in pool and when organizations form and promote pool at a financial loss, everyone gets all smart and calculates that there is some hidden pot of gold and we are being taken.
The payouts are getting smaller bc the pool community can't come together and see beyond there small minds. If the payouts were a $100,000 I bet no one would bat an eye to do the math and see how much was made. But bc it's less then what some make in month, all of a sudden "where did all the money go?"
You guys fight and argue to ur hearts content and when u come up with a solution to fix pool get back to us. Think before you speak, CSI who hasn't given us any reason to doubt that they are pushing the sport in the right direction, is all of a sudden stealing from us?
What do u guys think they get rich off this stuff? If so then why aren't there more events, so they can keep fleecing us? Why isn't this sh!t on every corner like the f'king McDonalds cups you bring into the event?
Open you're eyes and know when you're being taken and when you are the one taking from yourself!! As much as you guys wanna claim being hustlers, gamblers, and matchmakers you can't even figure out who the sucker is.
Thanks CSI for doing what you do. And f,k everyone else for what they do!
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CSI - Ozzy
Banned
POST OF THE YEAR! Whoever you are, thank you and we will continue to do our very best.
thank you for the correction. At first I was upset with CSI but not it all makes sense after clarification.
Actually, you can thank Chris Santana aka SkyScraper Chris for accusing CSI of being corrupt in this thread. That wasn't me...
Here we all are, having a mature discussion about improving the state of our sport and future events and Chris posts up with a graphic to ridicule everything we are trying to accomplish... A little over the top, don't you think, Chris?
I am not accusing CSI of corruption. I was merely illustrating that the Reg/Green fee becomes a variable when you guarantee money in an event and there are less players than expected. Please read what I wrote again if you are confused.
I have not criticized them in the past because they have always filled the field, and as my post #47 points out, filling the field actually creates more value for the players. They did not fill the field this year but they Guaranteed the $4,000 - this puts them into a tighter spot with the money and ultimately I'm not making so much of a criticism more than an actual observation.
Sure - I have some criticisms and opinions about how the Swanee could be better for all, and how if it were more 'sponsor' driven, that CSI and Hard Times could recoup losses through ad-space and not from the players - But, once again, I am not bashing - nor am I jealous or have an ax to grind, as Ozzy states. Also, I'm not jumping on Mark Griffin. I stated previously that I was surprised to even see his response to this thread because of his recent operation. Mark and I are currently playing 'phone tag'. He called me this morning / I called him back and that is between us.
Obviously, because I am seen as some sort of media competition and I spoke up, this makes me an easy target for defense, but once again, I don't blame anyone for thinking this but I also don't see it that way.
You should probably lighten up a little first of all. Just because professional pool is in the dumps -- that doesn't mean we should just shut up about everything. If something bothers someone and they think they have a legitimate complaint, I see nothing wrong with them voicing their concerns.
Secondly, I've never liked how the whole "Added Money" thing has played out at most tournaments. I still think it's a bit of an accounting game. When tournaments are profitable, and I'm not talking about obscene profits here (as if such a thing exists), anybody who has completed middle school can run the numbers and figure out that the "money added" could very well just be money "not taken out of" the entry fees.
So in this present scenario, say CSI really made a few thousand dollars off of this event, which really isn't that implausible. Would it then still be accurate for them to say that they "Added Money" to the prize fund?
I don't know anymore.
Here's what we do know: They collected $14,760 from the players and they paid out $13,840. Only in the pool world does it make sense that they added money to the purse.
The real test for me would be if I sat down 10 NON pool players and explained the situation, would they think the $4,000 Added was accurate? My hunch is that they would not.
There's got to be a better way to do this.
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Nailed it.
I would like to see them move towards promoting the tournaments as paying out a percentage of the entry fees.
So a tournament could promise 80 or 90% payback. Or if they are crazy they could go for 100%. The Holy Grail would be the 100% Plus payback tournies.
So a tournament could promise 80 or 90% payback. Or if they are crazy they could go for 100%. The Holy Grail would be the 100% Plus payback tournies.
Ozzy, thank you for touching on my questions on your recent podcast with Justin...Obviously, you don't know me, so you moved on rather quickly..I wish Mark had been able to be with you, as I'm sure he would have gotten you to give more credence, to my questions and my reasons for asking them !..I am long retired from pro pool, but I have always been a supporter of Mark's, and he in turn, said many kind words on my behalf, when I was voted into the 1P HOF (in 2012)..
I Just want to say, I think you are doing a very commendable job, since Mark recently brought you on board. It's too bad you have to spend (waste) so much time defending CSI, and Mark !..The few detractor's of CSI, don't seem to recall (or they are too new on the scene) how barren the Pro tournament landscape was, before Mark got involved !..He's laid a lot on the line, knowing every event was a crapshoot !..I think he has certainly earned any monetary success, (if any) he may derive from the labor of promoting both amateur, and pro events !
Dick Mc Morran, aka San Jose Dick--(tell Mark I said Hi !)
PS..Its understandable, you don't know of me.. You are an 'East Coast' guy, and I was never a 'household name' anyway !
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CSI - Ozzy
Banned
Thanks
If it seemed that I rushed through your questions without giving them the attention they deserve, I truly apologize. We were running long and were trying to wrap things up. Thank you for the kind words and I hope to meet you in person one day.
Ozzy, thank you for touching on my questions on your recent podcast with Justin...Obviously, you don't know me, so you moved on rather quickly..I wish Mark had been able to be with you, as I'm sure he would have gotten you to give more credence, to my questions and my reasons for asking them !..I am long retired from pro pool, but I have always been a supporter of Mark's, and he in turn, said many kind words on my behalf, when I was voted into the 1P HOF (in 2012)..
I Just want to say, I think you are doing a very commendable job, since Mark recently brought you on board. It's too bad you have to spend (waste) so much time defending CSI, and Mark !..The few detractor's (of CSI) don't seem to recall, (or they are too new on the scene) how barren the Pro tournament landscape was, before Mark got involved !..He's laid a lot on the line, knowing every event was a crapshoot !..I think he has certainly earned any monetary success, if any, he may derive from both amateur and pro events !
Dick Mc Morran, aka San Jose Dick--(tell Mark I said Hi !)
PS..Its understandable, you don't know of me.. You are an 'East Coast' guy, and I was never a 'household name' anyway !
If it seemed that I rushed through your questions without giving them the attention they deserve, I truly apologize. We were running long and were trying to wrap things up. Thank you for the kind words and I hope to meet you in person one day.
With nearly 200 entrants, it does take a bit of time to collect entry fees so I can understand why they would want as many people as possible to pay in advance, but what's the point of a late fee? And why would the nearly $1000 in late fees not go into the prize fund?
It's not that CSI is making money off the event, but based on the breakdown provided, it seems like a whole lot of unnecessary things go into this. Like the $655 that went into making and mailing out 850 fliers. Is that even necessary at all? I think a few posters on the wall at Hardtimes and a couple mass emails would have got the job done.
It's not that CSI is making money off the event, but based on the breakdown provided, it seems like a whole lot of unnecessary things go into this. Like the $655 that went into making and mailing out 850 fliers. Is that even necessary at all? I think a few posters on the wall at Hardtimes and a couple mass emails would have got the job done.
Personally I would promote it as getting a discount for paying early not a penalty for paying late. It obviously would be the same thing but the mentality of it all is different.
I also like a total added money to be stated - $4000 added, $5000 added - whatever it is. As opposed to stating, we are adding $35 a player. You can tell from the OP of this thread, a lot of pool players aren't good at math and the bigger added money to the event doesn't come across.
To CSI - I would think about putting the word 'Pool' in your Facebook page name. If you search 'pool' on Facebook, CSI doesn't even come up but the APA does for example. Seems to me that with CSI being one of the biggest organizations in pool in the USA, you would want it on top of those searches. I only state this because you posted that you spent a good chunk in promoting this event.
In the end, this thread wouldn't even exist if pool players spent more at the events they go to. And if room owners were doing better, they could view a pool tournament as a way of giving back to their player base and be happy if they get even on the added money (minus the lost revenue of their normal weekend business). However, that is not the case as well. Room owners that I see that are trying to run their business with constant weekly or even monthly added money events are simply dumb and destined to failure.
I also like a total added money to be stated - $4000 added, $5000 added - whatever it is. As opposed to stating, we are adding $35 a player. You can tell from the OP of this thread, a lot of pool players aren't good at math and the bigger added money to the event doesn't come across.
To CSI - I would think about putting the word 'Pool' in your Facebook page name. If you search 'pool' on Facebook, CSI doesn't even come up but the APA does for example. Seems to me that with CSI being one of the biggest organizations in pool in the USA, you would want it on top of those searches. I only state this because you posted that you spent a good chunk in promoting this event.
In the end, this thread wouldn't even exist if pool players spent more at the events they go to. And if room owners were doing better, they could view a pool tournament as a way of giving back to their player base and be happy if they get even on the added money (minus the lost revenue of their normal weekend business). However, that is not the case as well. Room owners that I see that are trying to run their business with constant weekly or even monthly added money events are simply dumb and destined to failure.
The complaints seem to be out of proportion to the amounts.
Let's just say that CSI put ALL of the entry and late fees into the payout pool:
164 players x $90 entrance fee + 31 late entrants x $15 late fee = $15,225.
Others have already established the payouts totaled $13,840, so:
$15,225 - $13,840 = $1,385
I'm omitting the "$4000 added" nonsense since it's going to end up coming out of both sides of the ledger anyway.
I was there all day on Saturday and there couldn't have been more than 50 paying spectators. As an aside, I purchased a VIP seat for Saturday and would estimate that less than half were actually paid for. But for this exercise let's say all 30 VIP seats were purchased for an extra $5:
50 spectators x $10 cover charge + 30 "VIP's" x $5 = $650.
Let's say the spectator attendance was double that on Sunday:
100 spectators x $10 cover charge + 30 "VIP's" x $5 = $1150.
$1,385 + $650 + $1150 = $3185.
Even if you doubt Ozzie's breakdown of his expenses, you can not deny that there were 4 CSI employees there for 4 days. At $100/day/employee ($26k/year, not an outlandish pay rate by any means) that's:
4 employees x 4 days x $100/day = $1600.
Let's pretend there were NO OTHER EXPENSES. That leaves CSI a WHOPPING:
$3185 - $1600 = $1585.
$1585 for their troubles to hold a once a year tournament. If anything, I'd consider this amount a charitable effort.
Pax,
Taek Chang
Let's just say that CSI put ALL of the entry and late fees into the payout pool:
164 players x $90 entrance fee + 31 late entrants x $15 late fee = $15,225.
Others have already established the payouts totaled $13,840, so:
$15,225 - $13,840 = $1,385
I'm omitting the "$4000 added" nonsense since it's going to end up coming out of both sides of the ledger anyway.
I was there all day on Saturday and there couldn't have been more than 50 paying spectators. As an aside, I purchased a VIP seat for Saturday and would estimate that less than half were actually paid for. But for this exercise let's say all 30 VIP seats were purchased for an extra $5:
50 spectators x $10 cover charge + 30 "VIP's" x $5 = $650.
Let's say the spectator attendance was double that on Sunday:
100 spectators x $10 cover charge + 30 "VIP's" x $5 = $1150.
$1,385 + $650 + $1150 = $3185.
Even if you doubt Ozzie's breakdown of his expenses, you can not deny that there were 4 CSI employees there for 4 days. At $100/day/employee ($26k/year, not an outlandish pay rate by any means) that's:
4 employees x 4 days x $100/day = $1600.
Let's pretend there were NO OTHER EXPENSES. That leaves CSI a WHOPPING:
$3185 - $1600 = $1585.
$1585 for their troubles to hold a once a year tournament. If anything, I'd consider this amount a charitable effort.
Pax,
Taek Chang
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Attachments
LOL. There aren't too many admonishing posts that I enjoy reading, but yours is at the top of my list. Well said.
JoeyA
JoeyA
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
Late fees serve two purposes: 1) encourage people to register in a timely manner and 2) cover business disruption costs.
If there were no late fee or early entry discount (they are the same thing worded differently), about 90% of the field would wait until the last few days. It would be an unmanageable situation.
Significant planning must go into an event and when people register late, it causes disruption and additional costs. For example, suppose there were no late fee last weekend and we received 120 entries on Thursday and Friday. This would mean that other tasks would not get completed during those two days and perhaps a couple of our administrative folks would have to work on Saturday to catch up. This is a business disruption cost.
Regarding the mailings....I agree! We had decided to not do it this year. Then, we started receiving numerous calls from people who have been receiving the Swanee flyer in the mail for years. They wanted to know if the event was taking place because they hadn't received anything in the mail. Unfortunately, many people have been trained to do nothing until they receive the entry form in the mail. A lot of them wouldn't even know how to get to our website or receive an email. So, we believed we had to do it again.
Just out of curiosity, did you include in the mailing a notice that announcements of future events will be via email and they should provide you with an email address to receive notifications of subsequent events? Would save you the hassle and expense of facing this same problem next year.
It's amazing how people ***** about where all the money goes in these tourney as someone stated earlier, some people make more money in a month than 1st place! I realized how much money I make a month and compared it to 1st place(I make almost double) and I'm glad to say,,,,, I ain't a pro pool player, never will be, and I'm happy as pig in shit that I'm a lowly B player! I have my house, my business, and life may not be the greatest, but at least I know I'm gonna eat today!
To all those aspiring pool players out there,,,, play the game, get better, and try to become the greatest you can! But have a back up plan!!!!! Because I find it so funny and yet so sad that people are bickering for such a truly small amount of money!
Pool is the greatest game on earth imho! But it really isn't worth it if people are gonna ***** about a few hundred dollars! In the end, it a business, people!! Get that through your heads, business! Let's ask SVB to enter himself in tournement and let him know that he's not gonna get paid even if he finishes 1st place! He would tell us all to screw! And that is life my friends
as someone stated earlier, some people make more money in a month than 1st place! I realized how much money I make a month and compared it to 1st place(I make almost double) and I'm glad to say,,,,, I ain't a pro pool player, never will be, and I'm happy as pig in shit that I'm a lowly B player! I have my house, my business, and life may not be the greatest, but at least I know I'm gonna eat today! To all those aspiring pool players out there,,,, play the game, get better, and try to become the greatest you can! But have a back up plan!!!!! Because I find it so funny and yet so sad that people are bickering for such a truly small amount of money!
Pool is the greatest game on earth imho! But it really isn't worth it if people are gonna ***** about a few hundred dollars! In the end, it a business, people!! Get that through your heads, business! Let's ask SVB to enter himself in tournement and let him know that he's not gonna get paid even if he finishes 1st place! He would tell us all to screw! And that is life my friends
Flyers and a website for over 30% of the entry?
Hardtimes could have ran it themselves imo and filled the field, letting more than half of the players pay same day without any fees or major issues.
Again why did CSI take over this tournament if they hate pro pool, lose money, take away from the tournament, and everything becomes a hassle?
