The Biggest reason Lower level players can't improve ????

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hey Geno?

Does anything that you teach involve rolling balls down the table? That's the key to being great, rolling balls down the table.

r/DCP

Well its obvious you are knocking the other instructors. So have you taken Geno's lesson? Has it made any difference in your game? Got any videos "finally" of your play to post up?
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I played all day today, the best I could do was losing 4-7 to the ghost. I still felt good shooting, but couldn't put it all together.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played all day today, the best I could do was losing 4-7 to the ghost. I still felt good shooting, but couldn't put it all together.

Anytime I learn something new it always feels
like 1 step forward 2 steps back.
Thinking about what you learned while doing it
is a recipe for disaster.
I'm sure in a month or two of practice it
all come together.
 

Fore Rail

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The biggest reason lower level players don't improve?

They don't know where they are on the pool table to start with.

Then they don't know where they need to be next & don't know how to get there either.
 

shasta777

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lets just agree, that any or all suggestions here will help a player get better!!

I seen here so many different reasons why lower level players won't or can't
get better... or advance to the next level... my opinion is there are alot of good
reasons & many have been mentioned here...

Why NOT just agree that Not only players need to aim correctly & with a
dominate eye... but also needs to have the right basics down to be a good
player... practice playing pool will do this too... playing better players will help!!

Now there is something to be said of players who have natural talent... I know
many players who fall in this group...

So basically, each post here is correct... each if implemented will improve any
player... so just one idea/suggestion is NOT enough... just like a great player
can control the cue ball, use english/spin, can read a layout of balls, etc...
So all in all... everything comes into play... IMHO..
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the sights are crooked on the gun...........

Lets just agree, that any or all suggestions here will help a player get better!!

I seen here so many different reasons why lower level players won't or can't
get better... or advance to the next level... my opinion is there are alot of good
reasons & many have been mentioned here...

Why NOT just agree that Not only players need to aim correctly & with a
dominate eye... but also needs to have the right basics down to be a good
player... practice playing pool will do this too... playing better players will help!!

Now there is something to be said of players who have natural talent... I know
many players who fall in this group...

So basically, each post here is correct... each if implemented will improve any
player... so just one idea/suggestion is NOT enough... just like a great player
can control the cue ball, use english/spin, can read a layout of balls, etc...
So all in all... everything comes into play... IMHO..

If the sights are crooked on the gun nothing will work. The cue won't line up on the cue ball correctly and forget about trying to make the ball. Right or left English is a nightmare.

Once a player learns where the sights are on the gun and line up right they can actually see what is happening.

All these other things people are talking about on this thread are important but they are all smaller pieces of the complete puzzle. Any player needs all these things to get to a higher level.

But if the eyes are not right it can be a nightmare. I don't teach anyone anything unless I first teach them where the eyes need to be. If they have already been trying to play in a league and play at a lower level they almost can't believe what it is like to really see the shot correctly. Now they can get better and they can start making the other parts of the game work.

But if the eyes are not right they don't know why they missed. They can't even tell if they missed to the right or the left sometimes.

I've taught it thousands of times already. I'm saying this from thousands of lessons. This is the most important thing that any player in the world could ever learn period.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The biggest reason lower level players don't improve?

They don't know where they are on the pool table to start with.

Then they don't know where they need to be next & don't know how to get there either.

Two best billiard players in history. Ronnie OSullivsn and Steve Hendry.. discussing playing American Pool.

Ronnie at age 19 beats Strickland. Hendry asks Ronnie how he Did it and his strategy 25 years later.

Ronnie: I don’t know how To play Pool. It’s like mini golf. I just hit the ball in and get on position for the next. No need to think too much. These players have it all figured out to the last ball but still can’t beat us’.

Hendry laughs and confirms he plays American pool the same. He also just plays a ball at a time as too complicated otherwise. Get stuck and play a safety.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Geno?

Does anything that you teach involve rolling balls down the table? That's the key to being great, rolling balls down the table.

r/DCP

True. Playing and playing.

65,000 comments on the aiming forum and a thousand Threads with ‘pros’ pushing their latest ‘insight’.

The grapefruit diet, the Scarsdale diet....‘It’s the grip’...’it’s your eyes‘...

Next week. New magic aiming system, magic cues, magic chalk...it gets hilarious.

Vulnerable groupies all salivating over ‘the guru’ sharing his wisdom.
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Two best billiard players in history. Ronnie OSullivsn and Steve Hendry.. discussing playing American Pool.

Ronnie at age 19 beats Strickland. Hendry asks Ronnie how he Did it and his strategy 25 years later.

Ronnie: I don’t know how To play Pool. It’s like mini golf. I just hit the ball in and get on position for the next. No need to think too much. These players have it all figured out to the last ball but still can’t beat us’.

Hendry laughs and confirms he plays American pool the same. He also just plays a ball at a time as too complicated otherwise. Get stuck and play a safety.

#1 "These players have it all figured out to the last ball but still can't beat us"

No, pool players usually play position for third ball, sometimes 4th ball but thats rare, but it is logically, you need to play a position for the next ball with the angle that takes you to the 3rd ball, it is what every professional does, same with snooker players, ROnnie also plays position to leave an angle so that he can get to the 3rd ball but he does it naturally, what he said is just an "Interview speech" for laughs, but he still does it the same as pool players -> 3 balls position.

#2 Ronnie beaten Earl when he was 19 in the mosconi cup a race to 5, we know in 9ball a race to 5 is just a flip of a coin, lets be honest, in a long race he would never beaten a world pool class player, he said "They never beaten us" again an interview speech that hold no weight, because Ronnie o'sullivan actually tried playing pool seriously and failed.

He joined a few major tournaments, and always lost in first rounds, then he tried 8ball major tournament and again, lost early in the tournament, he can't do it in pool, he's brilliant in his game, but in pool, it is way too difficult for him.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
#1 "These players have it all figured out to the last ball but still can't beat us"

No, pool players usually play position for third ball, sometimes 4th ball but thats rare, but it is logically, you need to play a position for the next ball with the angle that takes you to the 3rd ball, it is what every professional does, same with snooker players, ROnnie also plays position to leave an angle so that he can get to the 3rd ball but he does it naturally, what he said is just an "Interview speech" for laughs, but he still does it the same as pool players -> 3 balls position.

#2 Ronnie beaten Earl when he was 19 in the mosconi cup a race to 5, we know in 9ball a race to 5 is just a flip of a coin, lets be honest, in a long race he would never beaten a world pool class player, he said "They never beaten us" again an interview speech that hold no weight, because Ronnie o'sullivan actually tried playing pool seriously and failed.

He joined a few major tournaments, and always lost in first rounds, then he tried 8ball major tournament and again, lost early in the tournament, he can't do it in pool, he's brilliant in his game, but in pool, it is way too difficult for him.

There’s also the cavemen diet and the cookie dough diet.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the sights are crooked on the gun...........

True. Playing and playing.

65,000 comments on the aiming forum and a thousand Threads with ‘pros’ pushing their latest ‘insight’.

The grapefruit diet, the Scarsdale diet....‘It’s the grip’...’it’s your eyes‘...

Next week. New magic aiming system, magic cues, magic chalk...it gets hilarious.

Vulnerable groupies all salivating over ‘the guru’ sharing his wisdom.

Once the sights are straightened out on the gun the player can start to improve. Until this it seems like mission impossible. This is why that player is seemingly stuck at a mediocre level forever. Like a forever label.

But it doesn't have to be. When the vision is corrected they can actually see what is happening with the cue ball and actually see the cue ball hitting the object ball.

The worse the eyes are off the worse the problem is.

I had an APA league operator in Minnesota that I worked with. I took him and 4 of his players to one end of the pool hall to show him how much this would help his players.

After working with them for about 2 hours he thanked me and we parted.

About a week later I wanted to do mini lessons for the players in his league. I do these so the players can see how this works and how well it will help them play better.

The league operator told me he didn't want me to do it. He was afraid it would screw up his players ratings and have to split teams up?

I didn't understand at the time but one of the players in the league explianed it to me.

I think he was worried about nothing but he could see a mass improvement in his players if they learned this.

Oh well. This was 3 years ago and i just left his league alone.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well I played a "marked table position" ghost that I originally set up in Feb, played it a TON then, and haven't touched it since. I tried it tonight, and my scores improved significantly.

Here is one single rack from that set that I was super proud of. In Feb, I got out this rack 2 out of 20 attempts.

Tonight, I got out 1 of 3 attempts. And almost each shot was a very tough for me power draw and spin shot. The type where you have to aim a half ball over because the squirt is so high. I really felt dialed in, and made them all. The 9 is one of my worst shots. Its a sighting error when cutting to the left, and being on the rail makes it even harder for me. I made it, but not cleanly. Still need work on that shot.

I'm a happy camper:)

Link (video sped 2x):
https://youtu.be/IM-UfPm0moA
 
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Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lack of proper training and fundamentals, not playing against better & stronger players regularly,
laziness with their practice approach, and overcrowding their minds with too much information.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... and overcrowding their minds with too much information.
I think that's only a problem if they let the knowledge interfere with acquiring a feel for shots or they are thinking when they are shooting. Often systems can cause misses if strictly adhered to because there are lots of small adjustments that have to be done by experience and feel and thinking gets in the way.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that's only a problem if they let the knowledge interfere with acquiring a feel for shots or they are thinking when they are shooting. Often systems can cause misses if strictly adhered to because there are lots of small adjustments that have to be done by experience and feel and thinking gets in the way.

You have a point there.
I've been playing for 60 years and 90 % of the shots and position are routine.
The only real thinking is how hard to hit it,and sometimes that is just automatic.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once the sights are straightened out on the gun the player can start to improve. Until this it seems like mission impossible. This is why that player is seemingly stuck at a mediocre level forever. Like a forever label.

But it doesn't have to be. When the vision is corrected they can actually see what is happening with the cue ball and actually see the cue ball hitting the object ball.

The worse the eyes are off the worse the problem is.

I had an APA league operator in Minnesota that I worked with. I took him and 4 of his players to one end of the pool hall to show him how much this would help his players.

After working with them for about 2 hours he thanked me and we parted.

About a week later I wanted to do mini lessons for the players in his league. I do these so the players can see how this works and how well it will help them play better.

The league operator told me he didn't want me to do it. He was afraid it would screw up his players ratings and have to split teams up?

I didn't understand at the time but one of the players in the league explianed it to me.

I think he was worried about nothing but he could see a mass improvement in his players if they learned this.

Oh well. This was 3 years ago and i just left his league alone.

Can you tell anything about me by looking at my avatar?
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bought Geno's DVD early on, when did he start it, 2008 maybe? I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, and said that here at the time (completely unsolicited). It felt like a night and difference, in like 5 minutes. I thought I might really become a player after getting my head and eyes in the correct spot. I also met him at DCC a couple years later and he gave me some in person tuneups.

The thing is, in all those years, I still shoot about the same. I didn't change the pecking order in the pool room.

One thing I will say about Geno, that maybe other people hate on, is his enthusiasm. Reading his posts and listening to him you "want" to get on the table and hit some balls and try it. I personally like that a lot. I don't think its a scam of his, I think he is genuinely super enthusiastic. I just watched Tommy Kennedy vs Archer match on Youtube, and Geno is like Kennedy. Just extremely enthusiastic about pool and life.

So people are starting to cut him up in this thread, but Geno will probably respond to them with enthusiasm, and never cut them up back.

I think its the same for any training method, really. Whether its a head/eye alignment system like Geno's, or stroke grooving, or elbow vs no elbow drop, etc etc etc. You might improve a hair, or think you will improve a lot after the initial experience, but a couple years later, you are in the same pecking order at the local pool room.

Put me down for the fundamental reason players reach a certain level "and stay there" is.... Genetics:)

Nature over nurture:)

I also find it hilarious that people say there is a shorter learning curve if you do xyz as compared to hitting tons of balls for hours per day "like the pros do". Every single pro that has ever existed, everyone in their local room knew they were going to be a player in a few months of picking up a cue. Pros don't become better because the put in more time, more practice, etc. The rate of their improvement is 10x the normal player. Then too, the pro will plateau after a few years, just like the intermediate player. The difference is their genetic propensity to control that stick is much higher. Not some aiming system. Or a stance. Or a bridge. Or a still elbow.

Carry on:)

I would tend to agree with this and I think it holds true for all sports- no way guys become "GREAT" by age 18 to 22 or so like many pros have in the past unless they have something special in their makeup relative to the sport they play. Most of us could go through a lifetime of practice and competition; but never come close to a top pro in any sport- we can try to perfect every aspect of our game- and even play way more hours than a pro- but still never even come close to being in the same league. Call it genetics or anything you want- being properly "wired' in a superior way to almost everyone else who participates is what ultimately creates the best in any sport IMO.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you were shooting right at the camera it would tell a little, but your are angled so it's really hard to see what's going on.

How about now?
 

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