The Biggest reason Lower level players can't improve ????

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Call it genetics or anything you want- being properly "wired' in a superior way to almost everyone else who participates is what ultimately creates the best in any sport IMO.
I think there are different strengths that an individual might have. A very interesting book on this topic is "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. You can get it delivered to your door for under $10.

Many top hitters in baseball have vision around 20/10 or better. That's hard to train for.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your right eye dominant it looks like.

How about now?

I think i remember you when i was in Denver back in 2009. You might only aim with that right eye of yours like a gun. Ocular vision. But might not see it right from the picture but that would be my guess.

I worked with a guy from Kuwait a few days ago. He was even on the outside of his right eye a little.

Players that see like this aim really well because it's like aiming a gun.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think i remember you when i was in Denver back in 2009. You might only aim with that right eye of yours like a gun. Ocular vision. But might not see it right from the picture but that would be my guess.

I worked with a guy from Kuwait a few days ago. He was even on the outside of his right eye a little.

Players that see like this aim really well because it's like aiming a gun.

I'm left eye dominant so I shoot a little side arm.
If I put my right eye over the shaft I cant make a ball.
Been like that my whole life.
We probably did meet in 2009 if you came to Felt or Hanks.
 

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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
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I know how good someone shoots doesn't make their thoughts right automatically. But man, Geno shoots GOOD!

He played my pal a race to 15 last bar table 8 ball last night. I'm always pulling for my buddy but I'm not rooting against Gene at all. Gene made a couple early mistakes and found himself down 4-1. Then my pal played a good safe and Geno two rail kicked a ball (spinning off the head rail length of the table) and started raining break and runs. The couple times my friend got to the table the balls were tricky and he was iced. Gene went from 1-4 down to up 11-4 in just a couple of innings.

That kind of sealed it. But not quite. My friend is no slouch and he took it on the chin, got it to 12-7 from where he wasn't out of the match. But he blundered on an 8 ball to go down 13-7. That was pretty much the end. Lost 15-7. If he had gotten to 12-8 and broke well maybe he could've done what Gene did and caught up. It seemed much harder in the moment than it looks on paper here today after watching what Gene did. I guess that's a good lesson. It always feels worse than it is, never give up when you're feeling discouraged because it can turn around. (My friend didn't give up, it was just a tough job!)

But not last night. Last night was all Geno. This man is a pool playing beast. Good shooting Gene!
 

RCnotcola

Registered
I also watched Genes match last night and boy he plays strong! I've played Gene several times over the years and I can tell you that age doesn't seem to be slowing him down.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I know how good someone shoots doesn't make their thoughts right automatically. But man, Geno shoots GOOD!

He played my pal a race to 15 last bar table 8 ball last night. I'm always pulling for my buddy but I'm not rooting against Gene at all. Gene made a couple early mistakes and found himself down 4-1. Then my pal played a good safe and Geno two rail kicked a ball (spinning off the head rail length of the table) and started raining break and runs. The couple times my friend got to the table the balls were tricky and he was iced. Gene went from 1-4 down to up 11-4 in just a couple of innings.

That kind of sealed it. But not quite. My friend is no slouch and he took it on the chin, got it to 12-7 from where he wasn't out of the match. But he blundered on an 8 ball to go down 13-7. That was pretty much the end. Lost 15-7. If he had gotten to 12-8 and broke well maybe he could've done what Gene did and caught up. It seemed much harder in the moment than it looks on paper here today after watching what Gene did. I guess that's a good lesson. It always feels worse than it is, never give up when you're feeling discouraged because it can turn around. (My friend didn't give up, it was just a tough job!)

But not last night. Last night was all Geno. This man is a pool playing beast. Good shooting Gene!

Is Geno's match archived anywhere? I think the last time I watched him play was when he had a challenge match with Bartram. He started off super strong, but Bartram won. That must have been 8 or 9 years ago.
 

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just had a top level instructor tell me that there is no such thing as a Dominant Eye issue in Pool. That the eyes work together once they are in the right position.

?????????????????
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just had a top level instructor tell me that there is no such thing as a Dominant Eye issue in Pool. That the eyes work together once they are in the right position.

?????????????????

Nope.
I am living proof.
I get my left eye (I'm right handed) over the shaft and I can run racks.
I get my right eye over the shaft and I'm just another bar banger.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I just had a top level instructor tell me that there is no such thing as a Dominant Eye issue in Pool. That the eyes work together once they are in the right position.
Eye dominance matters, but it's not an "issue" - it's easy to understand and deal with (and the eyes always work together).

The right position for your eyes is largely determined by how strong or weak your eye dominance is. With strong dominance you might see most accurately with the stick directly under the dominant eye - with weaker dominance you might do best with the stick more centered between them. Figure out where by experimenting.

pj
chgo
 

paolo2144

Registered
As others have pointed out there are a large number of reasons why some peole don't improve such as lack of practice, incorrect and aimless practise, weak foundations such as poor stance, bridge etc.

However i do think finding your correct vision centre is the most crucial element. At moment like a lot of people due to COVID-19 not been in a pool hall for 4 months, i bought a folding pool table for my house which i literally bring out once a week on Saturday for a 4 hour practice session just to keep my eye in.

Without fail when i start my long straight potting practice drill each week, the first 10-12 pots are really inconsistent until i get myself comfortable and lined up under my correct vision centre. Then after this i literally drill in roughly 27 out of next 30 attempts, and even the few i miss wobble the pockets which are really tight for size of table.

There is no doubt in my mind no matter ho solid your stance and bridge is and even if your cue action is straight, unless you are correctly alligned so you have your correct vision centre then you will always be inconsistent.
 

BlueRaider

Registered
The eye dominance thing is really interesting to me.

I'm cross dominant, left-handed and right-eyed. I cue up directly in the center of my chin. I don't think that I have any trouble perceiving the relationship between the pocket, the object ball, and the cue ball (the shot line). But I do occasionally have trouble perceiving whether my tip is at center ball. However, moving my head around over my cue doesn't solve that. It tends to just make it worse. When I put my cue directly under my right eye the shot picture looks ridiculously skewed.

What does help, however, is changing my stance. When my footwork and body rotation are good, center ball is plainly obvious. But is changing my stance also changing my head position somehow? It doesn't seem like it is. I'm still cueing up dead center on my chin. But maybe head is tilted a little? Or maybe it's a matter of my cue actually pointing in a straight line at the cue ball (due to a straighter elbow/arm/hand position) instead of being slightly crooked?
 

paolo2144

Registered
#1 "These players have it all figured out to the last ball but still can't beat us"

No, pool players usually play position for third ball, sometimes 4th ball but thats rare, but it is logically, you need to play a position for the next ball with the angle that takes you to the 3rd ball, it is what every professional does, same with snooker players, ROnnie also plays position to leave an angle so that he can get to the 3rd ball but he does it naturally, what he said is just an "Interview speech" for laughs, but he still does it the same as pool players -> 3 balls position.

#2 Ronnie beaten Earl when he was 19 in the mosconi cup a race to 5, we know in 9ball a race to 5 is just a flip of a coin, lets be honest, in a long race he would never beaten a world pool class player, he said "They never beaten us" again an interview speech that hold no weight, because Ronnie o'sullivan actually tried playing pool seriously and failed.

He joined a few major tournaments, and always lost in first rounds, then he tried 8ball major tournament and again, lost early in the tournament, he can't do it in pool, he's brilliant in his game, but in pool, it is way too difficult for him.

If Ronnie had quit snooker a few years back and devoted himself to pool as did Allison and Kelly Fisher as well as Karen Corr, he would have been a decent player. Put it this way he would do better in pool that in Earl or Shane would in snooker if roles reversed.

Both pool and Snooker are tough in their own right, but Shane and Earl would really struggle with the accuracy required to pot tough shots in snooker especailly down the rails/cushions. We can see this when Shane plays Chines 8 ball, he can no longer cheat the pockets and his game suffers big time.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope.
I am living proof.
I get my left eye (I'm right handed) over the shaft and I can run racks.
I get my right eye over the shaft and I'm just another bar banger.

I've found that my stroke hand wants to move towards my belly. Leaning over the stick might alleviate some eyestrain but it's the leaning that does the trick. The stroke now starts at the hip and has less leeway to hook. When I realized that, I went back to facing the cueball flat, and ironing out the stroke.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
I also watched Genes match last night and boy he plays strong! I've played Gene several times over the years and I can tell you that age doesn't seem to be slowing him down.

Playing strong is not winning. Vince Lombardi said something about, Winning is the only thing. Did Gene win, or even finish in the top three.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dominant eye is everything and we can build everything around it.

As others have pointed out there are a large number of reasons why some peole don't improve such as lack of practice, incorrect and aimless practise, weak foundations such as poor stance, bridge etc.

However i do think finding your correct vision centre is the most crucial element. At moment like a lot of people due to COVID-19 not been in a pool hall for 4 months, i bought a folding pool table for my house which i literally bring out once a week on Saturday for a 4 hour practice session just to keep my eye in.

Without fail when i start my long straight potting practice drill each week, the first 10-12 pots are really inconsistent until i get myself comfortable and lined up under my correct vision centre. Then after this i literally drill in roughly 27 out of next 30 attempts, and even the few i miss wobble the pockets which are really tight for size of table.

There is no doubt in my mind no matter ho solid your stance and bridge is and even if your cue action is straight, unless you are correctly alligned so you have your correct vision centre then you will always be inconsistent.

As I traveled around the USA teaching from 2008 to 2014 I logged about 2,000 full lessons. I thought I knew allot but knew very little about this dominant eye business. As I taught what I knew I kept learning more and more. Everytime i did a lesson I would see other parts of the game that I could correct for the player and soon i was not only correcting the eyes but fitting the stance and stroke with the eyes.

I would do free mini lessons for players , finding their dominant eyes, to help them understand how much this would help them. Somewhere in the 20,000 mini lesson range and that is probably an under estimate.

People knew the dominant eye had something to do with shooting but mostly just let it happen naturally. The more you played the quicker the eyes got more correct naturally from repetition.

Here's the problem though. If you don't know how to get the eyes in the best position manually they will let you down at the most important time. In the middle of a match and you have to make that shot for all the cash.

Unless you understand how this works there is no way to precisely position your stance, stroke and eyes as one unit on these most important shots.

You didn't dog the shot. You dogged the eyes.

The biggest hurdle with teaching this is everyone wants to be an expert without doing anything except just thinking this is how it is or this is how it is.

This was uncharted territory. no blueprint to follow because very soon I realized nobody really knew the whole story about how this works. In fact , every once in a while I would discover something totally ground breaking that this eye dominance effected big time.

Once I would discover another epiphany about the eyes I would work on it for myself first. Then I would work with students and help them see it and correct the problem in their game. The results are always off the charts.

So when I am helping these players and they are telling everyone on here how much they think it helped them they are telling the truth.

Now they can actually improve. Actually play better pool and have more fun. Now they will get some results from the hard work many of us put into our game.

When arm chair quarterbacks put in their 2 cents with a couple taps on the keyboard. there is a huge mixture of thoughts on the subject. That's because they are just thoughts.

Once I do a lesson with someone they will never look at the game the same ever again.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have 10 top level players that will tell you that instructor?

I just had a top level instructor tell me that there is no such thing as a Dominant Eye issue in Pool. That the eyes work together once they are in the right position.

?????????????????

I can PM you 20 top level players that will attest to the dominant eye being huge. He is correct. The eyes work together. No much thought there to figure that out.

I had a local teacher here tell me the same thing. All the eyes do is work together. That's like saying I'm sure it will rain some day and I'll bet the ground gets wet also.

Regardless how little pool teachers or players know about the dominant eye they think they know it all. I was there. I thought I knew it all, only to learn and learn over 15 years how this all really works. no guessing with me. i have the cold hard facts. What I can show you, you can put in the bank and collect interest.

Every place I went I would kind of pump the local instructors on what they knew. I would even show them a little only to find out they had no idea how the whole thing works with the eyes.

I have never, and that is a long time , never found a teacher or player that even comes close to understanding how this totally works and there is so much to it.

If I wouldn't have traveled and taught this for so many years I never would have figured this all out. Lucky for me I was stubborn and just kept going. With my heart as bad as it was it was hard to keep grinding and grinding but I did. Now that it is fixed it's great to be able to play for hours and I know I can even do 2 lessons per day again.

Oh well, I guess the ones that learn this are the lucky ones. But they are the only ones that know how lucky they are.

If you don't know what you don't know,,,,,You don't know what your missing out on.

You don't feel bad that you don't know it.

Like sour grapes. The fox is jumping up to try and get the grapes on the vines up on some trees. As hard as he could, he just couldn't jump high enough to get a few. Finally he walked by one day, looked up at the grapes and said, Oh well, those grapes are probably sour anyway.

That's the story of the sour grapes.

I guess if you don't know how important it is, it just doesn't matter.


Sour Grapes:thumbup::cool::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just had a top level instructor tell me that there is no such thing as a Dominant Eye issue in Pool. That the eyes work together once they are in the right position.

?????????????????

He's clueless, get your money back! trust me on this, listen to Gene!
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Playing strong is not winning. Vince Lombardi said something about, Winning is the only thing. Did Gene win, or even finish in the top three. No reply for the person who say, or the "G" Man.

Will I can show you exactly how in theory to "AIM"a Ridle, Pistol, or Shot.gun to hit in the "X" Ring. But if you do not have fundamental of shooting down, correct trigger pull, a steady hand. The News is a 7 yard with pistol you will not even creat a respectable paddlers of shots.


Again take an Rifle to rang say a .308, trying hitting the Target Dead Center 5 times at Two Hubndred Yards. Most people can not creat a Pattern in 3 Shot you can cover with a Silver Dollar.

Aiming is like a very small piece of the Pie to become a Good Pool Player.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Another Log....

This is just another log on the fire I suppose, but I'm in awe that thread is still pulling in the comments.

I'm also in awe at the notion that simply adjusting your line of view relative to the cue will instantly make you 3 balls stronger. There's so much more going on, but somehow this one element is the keystone to making all of players of the world take a quantum leap in skill. I admittingly know nothing of eye dominance, but like anyone else who's spent real time being decent at this game can do, I can walk through a pool hall and usually point out why guys miss and/or are inconsistent.

Here's the thing... I've done the diy home eye dominance tests, (use your thumb, make a circle with your fingers, hole in a piece of paper, stare at the blurry picture until you see the boat) and according to all of them, I'm right eye dominant. Enough that when I do that circle finger test the object lands nearly all the way to the left of the circle. Not sure how bad that is...

Now my stroke and stance are locked down, and snooker based. During any shot, I have an open bridge, center of my chin resting on my cue, the side of my chest also rests on the cue.

Now that the stage is set here are my tendencies... I very rarely (I am human) miss open shots that do not require having some added element of difficulty. Meaning, if it's a roll in, straight follow, straight draw, stun, length does not matter, then it's in. That said, I'm talking about just making the ball here. In game play there are many added elements of difficulty and I suffer from them as much as any other at my level.

How do I have the ability to sight shots and make them so consistently, if I have right eye dominance but center the cue under my chin...? Now you could easily just say that I'm lying, and that in truth I miss open shots all the time. Well I'm not going to post 24hrs of video proving my claim, so just take my word for it. Here's the thing, assuming I do have a dominance "problem" (in quotes for a reason), my years of play have corrected for it.

Roll back to my first months playing:
-sight a shot
-miss the shot (to the right?)
-set up the shot again and adjust
-make the shot
-make mental note that I need to contact the object ball at this point to make it follow this path.
-move on

The above is no different for any player. Whether you have a dominance "problem" or not. No one breaks out a compass, ruler, and whatever math you would need to determine the contact point prior to ever hitting a ball. The whole game is trial and error.

Eye dominance can be correct in two ways. Either shift your head alignment, or adjust or aim. I'm going to hazard a guess and say most adjust their aim. I know I did, or at least I must have, or I shouldn't have ever made a ball...lol. The idea of someone who honestly wants to get better at this game, but has continually missed shots in the same manner and not tried to correct for it prior to learning about eye dominance is insane. Because that's the definition of insanity. To continually do something in the same manner but expecting different results.

For me..., my fundamentals are so ingrained in my game that I'd rather continue to subconsciously correct my aim then sort out my eye dominance "problem". Not having my chin on center on the cue would be way too distracting for me.

So if any are wondering... I kept putting "problem" in quotes, because I don't believe it is indeed a problem to the magnitude that is portrayed in this thread. It's merely a variable that needs to be corrected for. Most adjust their aim and learn consistency with practice with that adjustment. Based on this thread, I suppose some will flounder for eternity until someone else gets them to shift their head in a given direction.
 
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genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Playing better your there closer than most. Repetition..

This is just another log on the fire I suppose, but I'm in awe that thread is still pulling in the comments.

I'm also in awe at the notion that simply adjusting your line of view relative to the cue will instantly make you 3 balls stronger. There's so much more going on, but somehow this one element is the keystone to making all of players of the world take a quantum leap in skill. I admittingly know nothing of eye dominance, but like anyone else who's spent real time being decent at this game can do, I can walk through a pool hall and usually point out why guys miss and/or are inconsistent.

Here's the thing... I've done the diy home eye dominance tests, (use your thumb, make a circle with your fingers, hole in a piece of paper, stare at the blurry picture until you see the boat) and according to all of them, I'm right eye dominant. Enough that when I do that circle finger test the object lands nearly all the way to the left of the circle. Not sure how bad that is...

Now my stroke and stance are locked down, and snooker based. During any shot, I have an open bridge, center of my chin resting on my cue, the side of my chest also rests on the cue.

Now that the stage is set here are my tendencies... I very rarely (I am human) miss open shots that do not require having some added element of difficulty. Meaning, if it's a roll in, straight follow, straight draw, stun, length does not matter, then it's in. That said, I'm talking about just making the ball here. In game play there are many added elements of difficulty and I suffer from them as much as any other at my level.

How do I have the ability to sight shots and make them so consistently, if I have right eye dominance but center the cue under my chin...? Now you could easily just say that I'm lying, and that in truth I miss open shots all the time. Well I'm not going to post 24hrs of video proving my claim, so just take my word for it. Here's the thing, assuming I do have a dominance "problem" (in quotes for a reason), my years of play have corrected for it.

Roll back to my first months playing:
-sight a shot
-miss the shot (to the right?)
-set up the shot again and adjust
-make the shot
-make mental note that I need to contact the object ball at this point to make it follow this path.
-move on

The above is no different for any player. Whether you have a dominance "problem" or not. No one breaks out a compass, ruler, and whatever math you would need to determine the contact point prior to ever hitting a ball. The whole game is trial and error.

Eye dominance can be correct in two ways. Either shift your head alignment, or adjust or aim. I'm going to hazard a guess and say most adjust their aim. I know I did, or at least I must have, or I shouldn't have ever made a ball...lol. The idea of someone who honestly wants to get better at this game, but has continually missed shots in the same manner and not tried to correct for it prior to learning about eye dominance is insane. Because that's the definition of insanity. To continually do something in the same manner but expecting different results.

For me..., my fundamentals are so ingrained in my game that I'd rather continue to subconsciously correct my aim then sort out my eye dominance "problem". Not having my chin on center on the cue would be way too distracting for me.

So if any are wondering... I kept putting "problem" in quotes, because I don't believe it is indeed a problem to the magnitude that is portrayed in this thread. It's merely a variable that needs to be corrected for. Most adjust their aim and learn consistency with practice with that adjustment. Based on this thread, I suppose some will flounder for eternity until someone else gets them to shift their head in a given direction.

Thanks for your constructive comment here.

First of all I used this eye dominance test for the first 3 months on the road teaching. Because I was doing allot of lesson, about 20 to 25 per week, I was seeing the same thing over and over. This test just flat out didn't work for everyone. I would waste allot of time trying to get the player under that eye thinking I could help them and it was a disaster until we went with the other eye. Finally I just gave up on it and learned how to find ones dominant eye on the pool table that was totally fool proof.

Playing at a higher level, you are a perfect example of how the dominant eye gets there naturally to a certain extent. It's a combination of you making the shot with the eye prefect many times with sometimes not so perfect. it only takes about 1/8 down on the shot the wrong way to the right or left and the correct picture is a little distorted. You can still make the ball most of the time bit it just didn't quite look right.

Stance and stroke are usually a big reason the better player can play better. From repetition and playing allot their stance and stroke are in a better place naturally getting the eyes there also. Our bodies and brains are trying to get it done for us naturally.

Kind of like in the wild west. If you would jump on a buffalo with a knife and stick it's neck trying to stop it and you get blood in your eye your would hardly notice that you could not see out of that eye. The other eye would just pick up the load and get it done. This is what the body does. it just tries to get it done. One eye or not.

On the pool shot. If you have the wrong eye working like the dominant eye the brain will just try to get it done. It might be saying to your brain, I suck , but I will try to get it done. This is why lower level players play so bad. For them it's like trying to aim a gun with the barrel right in the middle of the nose. You either have to be to the right or the left a little so the brain can do what it does and help you sort this out naturally.

But, if you know where this position is you can get there manually. Now you have something to work with. Now you can work at making it better instead of just making it a little better. Now you can adjust the stance to follow this more perfect position of the eyes and this will also put your stroke in a more perfect position also.

To someone like yourself, your naturally getting there, whether by repetition or just one of those players that just got there right away, you got there and can play better. But you don't know where the most exact perfect position is. This is that spot you get down on a shot and it looks so perfect you could never miss it. You would bet 1 million dollars on that shot.

This is where I teach the players to get with Perfect Aim. And once they get there now we have to adjust the stance and the stroke to follow the new position of the eyes.

For the better player like yourself that is already close the adjustments are much smaller because everything else is already pretty close to being there.

I hope this cleared it up a little.

When I do this lesson i have total confidence that the player will be in awe about what they just learned.

Are they going to play 3 balls immediately...Probably not. But depending on the player the improvements are huge as far as how they can see the shot. Now they can improve instead of having that 3 level stuck on their head seemingly forever.

One young man in the Twin Cities. His name is Joe. He was one of the worst players in the master league. 9 foot tables 2 years ago. Now he is in the running to be the top player. I see stuff like this all the time and I expect it.

Some of the kids I taught this to in the Twin Cities and around are playing as good as anyone in the country. They could play professionally but they are raising families and have great jobs. Pool is not on the top of everything list for them. But they play awful good.

I'm 68 and can still play at a pretty high level. I still to this day after years of playing have to start with the eye and fit everything around them Otherwise it's a real struggle.

Got to go. Got a tournament to win today and a lesson later on. Gave a great day my friend. .:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
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