The same thing happens with cue cases many times apprentices build the cases and one individual offers them as Custom cases, however, the individual who's name is on the cases doesn't build any of them himself. They are made by a number of people in a factory setting, that is tooled for this purpose specifically. Now many of the case makers today are doing business in this manner, and they are up front about what they are doing which in my opinion is the right way to do business. Most of the cases being produced in this manner also reflect that they are made in this manner by their price tag, however, not all of them.
For me when I spend $700 plus for a cue case it had better be a Custom Case that is tooled and completely made by the Case Maker in question. While quality can be accomplished just as well by a number of hands as it can be by a single pair of hands, I think a craftsman's unique touch is what it takes to make something truly custom. In my opinion if they are made any other way they are nothing more than production one of a kind items and they should be represented as such.
In my opinion if individual Cue or Case makers want to compete with each other they need to build the products that are going to be used as a representation of their work or for raising the so called bar themselves . Design is one thing, and assembly and craftsmanship are another and I find it hard for some one to expect to compete when their hands are not dirty!!!!!
Just my thoughts
You make a lot of assumptions here. Let's start with the last one, the one about the designer not getting their hands dirty;
Do you really know ANYTHING about how this works in real life Craig? Do you think that the designer sits in an office and sends off sketches and magically products just appear?
Do you have any CLUE at all what it takes to create something of substance and how much WORK is involved by everyone in the process?
Let's continue to use MY latest case as an example and I will run it down for you;
First the customer contacts me with his concept. We discuss it and I provide sketches and mockups that I do. This goes back and forth until we settle on a basic design - in this case that means about 20ish emails back and forth and four or five drafts on the concept.
Then I have the tooler do a rough sketch of the tooling pattern to go on the case and with him I work on that until I feel it's good to present to the customer - in this case that worked out to about three revisions BEFORE I sent it to the customer.
After the customer sees it we make any changes that they want to see. In this particular instance that equated to many changes throughout the process. I am the conduit for any and all changes - tack on another 20ish emails back and forth.
I designed the way the case would be constructed, if you know anything AT ALL about case construction then you will recognize how hard it is to build a case the way we did here. So this meant that I had to work out the methods and prototype them BEFORE applying them to the customer's case. I have a wall full of case sections where my concepts and ideas have been tested and refined.
On this case I developed a brand new way to do the handles that I have never seen before on anyone else's work. This cost me several hours of thinking about it plus more time spent researching handles BECAUSE I really wanted to do a tooled handle that was ALSO comfortable in the hand.
At every single step on this case I was right there either working on it or telling my staff what to do. I have photos of the case in every stage of development after construction finally began.
There are many other things that you cannot see on this case where I designed features here and there on the fly. For example, instead of using black fabric for the jump handle compartment I elected to use butterscotch deerskin and also to line the lower pocket with it. The idea to tool inside the rim was decided on the fly by me and required ME to sit down and re-engineer the overall pattern of the case.
I could go on with more things but the POINT of all this is that the "dirty work" IS done by the designer, especially in my shop. Unless I allow it NOTHING is done in my shop without my approval. And the only time I allow things to be done without my supervision is when I am satisfied that they are able to do those things to my standards, which is rare.
So enough about "dirty hands" - mine are black from leather dye by the way.
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Let's move on to assumption number two where you state;
The same thing happens with cue cases many times apprentices build the cases and one individual offers them as Custom cases, however, the individual who's name is on the cases doesn't build any of them himself. They are made by a number of people in a factory setting, that is tooled for this purpose specifically.
You make this statement as if you KNOW this to be a true fact. I highly doubt that you have visited ANY case maker's operation to ascertain how and why they build they way they do.
You don't even know if the staff are "apprentices" or employees. Do you even know the difference? I am the "individual" you refer to to so quit being mealy mouthed about it. We already had the discussion about what custom is and there is NO DOUBT Craig that the cases coming out of my shop are CUSTOM CASES in every sense and definition of the word.
But let's talk about the last sentence in your above statement. What purpose SHOULD a shop be "tooled" for? Really Craig any one who makes anything on a continuous basis that is worth their salt sets up their shop to be able to PRODUCE things in a quick and consistent manner.
Are you suggesting a LIMIT on the number of tools and jigs a person can use in order to be able to call their work "custom" I know you already think there should be a limit on how many people work on it but now you want to limit the tools and processes as well?
Or do you mean to imply that I basically have a cue case factory and that the cases are made by throwing a bunch of leather on the table at one end and the other end spits out a case? A case assembly line of sorts? Is that what you mean?
It's really hard to tell when you make statements like this that are presented as fact but in fact are just opinion that is ignorant of the actual process.
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And the final point - I could go on for days but I need to go watch some WORLD CLASS pool instead of debating this and two, it's just not important in the grand scheme of things.
you said:
I think a craftsman's unique touch is what it takes to make something truly custom. In my opinion if they are made any other way they are nothing more than production one of a kind items and they should be represented as such.
Again you are misusing the word custom. Custom only applies to things that are made to order according to the CUSTOMER'S specification. The craftsman's touch, the designer's design are the things that make items DIFFERENT from other people's similar items. By your logic the only thing that makes a case "worthy" is who did the labor to actually build it.
Does a Jack Justis case cease to be worthy to be called a Justis case if someone else were to go into Jack's home and build a case using exactly his tools and methods and the case came out exactly as he would build it? In that situation the CREATOR of the case is Jack Justis, the builder could be anyone. Jack created all the jigs, he created all the patterns, he defined the method.
You did start this thread specifically to FLAME me.
If you cannot see my unique touch in the cases I build then I have to say you are blind or being deliberately contrary just to advance your position.
Have a great day - I am off to watch someone win $20,000
, just make it clear to the paying customer. If I was going to shell out, say, 3k for a cue, I would want to know who made it, even though it would likely have no bearing on whether or not I wanted the cue. It is more about trust, I guess.
