WPBA why top players were gay?
- Thread starter bobroberts
- Start date
I respect your honesty and desire to understand why if it can be explained. It isn't a trite request for it has gotten legs nor is it homophobic. Wishing that it will not or should not be discussed by some has failed.
I offered a link to some scientific observations to proffer an answer to your thread that went unnoticed except for one comment. I will take an excerpt from that thread here:
Reading, writing and arithmetic...
In a recent study, the results of mathematics and literacy (reading) tests for seven-year-old children could be predicted by measuring the length of these two fingers.
"...In a study to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, scientists compared the finger lengths of 75 children with their Standardised Assessment Test (SAT) scores. They found a clear link between a child's performance in numeracy and literacy tests and the relative lengths of their index (pointing) and ring fingers.
Scientists believe that the link is caused by different levels of the hormones testosterone and estrogen in the womb -- and the effect they have on both brain development and finger length. This is nothing new, since scientists have known for many years that elevated levels of testosterone -- or other hormones closely resembling testosterone -- can cause the brains of both males and females to be more "masculine."
It has long been known that boys tend to do better on math tests while girls do better at writing, reading and verbal tests.
"Testosterone has been argued to promote development of the areas of the brain which are often associated with spatial and mathematical skills," said Dr Mark Brosnan, Head of the Department of Psychology at the University of Bath, who led the study.
"Estrogen is thought to do the same in the areas of the brain which are often associated with verbal ability. "Interestingly, these hormones are also thought have a say in the relative lengths of our index and ring fingers.
"We can use measurements of these fingers as a way of gauging the relative exposure to these two hormones in the womb and as we have shown through this study, we can also use them to predict ability in the key areas of numeracy and literacy."..."
http://viewzone2.com/fingersx.html
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I, being a male engineer have spatial and mathematical skills that I know are components of playing high levels of pool. Without these abilities, the multi components of pool cannot be fathomed or mastered. I believe that most of the better women players have these skills. Based on this article, they may also be lesbian or bisexual./I]
I am a mentor to a lesbian engineer who has these skills as well and she exceeds expectations. She is more talented and perceives good design solutions instinctively - faster than many of her male associates.
Because of EEO, we encourage the hiring of lesbian, gay and trans gender engineers, so I work with them daily. I don't shoot pool as much as I would like, but I am sure that those that possess spatial comprehension do excel.
I hope that this helps.:smile:
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I've seen several posts that attempt to cast homosexuality as biologically determined. While I agree that it is, I do not see how one can then say that this affords any advantage at all to pool playing.
You can say a lesbian's brain is different from that of a heterosexual woman and perhaps, find some credable scientific argument to back your point, but I don't buy the position that the hunter-gatherer mentality lends itself to pocketing balls with greater precision...nor do I subscribe to the position that the heterosexual female brain is any less able to play the game of pool at its highest levels.
My point:What I believe is evidenced by this very thread...
The social majority treat homosexuality differently. Even the most sensitive or open minded among us express some form of reaction to it. To be treated as different is a form of adversity. Commitment, tenasity, drive to achieve, resiliency, need to achieve mastry...they are all tenets of a champion and are all born of adversity. We create this adversity every day, and some homosexual men and women choose to deal with it by working harder...achieving higher...never giving in when they practice their craft. That is the common thread between gays and heteros in top achievement areas like world championship pool. Thay just work harder and are driven to get better with every breath they take.
You can say a lesbian's brain is different from that of a heterosexual woman and perhaps, find some credable scientific argument to back your point, but I don't buy the position that the hunter-gatherer mentality lends itself to pocketing balls with greater precision...nor do I subscribe to the position that the heterosexual female brain is any less able to play the game of pool at its highest levels.
My point:What I believe is evidenced by this very thread...
The social majority treat homosexuality differently. Even the most sensitive or open minded among us express some form of reaction to it. To be treated as different is a form of adversity. Commitment, tenasity, drive to achieve, resiliency, need to achieve mastry...they are all tenets of a champion and are all born of adversity. We create this adversity every day, and some homosexual men and women choose to deal with it by working harder...achieving higher...never giving in when they practice their craft. That is the common thread between gays and heteros in top achievement areas like world championship pool. Thay just work harder and are driven to get better with every breath they take.
maybe lesbians are more competitive like men? just a guess
Discussing homosexuality as it contributes to pool playing ability should not be any more offensive than discussing the length of one’s fingers, the color of one’s eyes (blue eyes are disproportionately prevalent among quarter backs) or any of a host of factors. People are interested in what can or will give one an edge. Does crack cocaine make one play better? Are psychopaths (with less anxiety) better candidates for some sports?
Eye color, sexual preference and interpersonal style may or may not be indirectly related to some other factor that can be encouraged and or enhanced to yield a higher level of skill. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with looking into factors that could be of use (even indirectly) with improving performance.
Those who are offended are often (not always) the ones who have the strongest emotional attachments to a topic with a rigid set of beliefs. There will always be strong emotions by those with some sort of need to have one.
Studying the "other" characteristics of outstanding people is but one way of attempting to improve the interested player's ability. For instance, if the female homsexual's ability to withstand social pressure is one of the factors that leads to a higher level of play perhaps there is a need to determine how they learned this and if it can be taught to others as a way to improves one's play.
In my observations of highly skillful players I have found some consistencies among players that are interesting and some that have improved my game. Some of these characteristics I have written about and some have been discounted or criticized because they are not in the geneal pool playing literature. Just because the usual authors have not observed these things does not make them any less true. I suspect that there are many other things that are not in the literature and are not common knowledge.
Eye color, sexual preference and interpersonal style may or may not be indirectly related to some other factor that can be encouraged and or enhanced to yield a higher level of skill. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with looking into factors that could be of use (even indirectly) with improving performance.
Those who are offended are often (not always) the ones who have the strongest emotional attachments to a topic with a rigid set of beliefs. There will always be strong emotions by those with some sort of need to have one.
Studying the "other" characteristics of outstanding people is but one way of attempting to improve the interested player's ability. For instance, if the female homsexual's ability to withstand social pressure is one of the factors that leads to a higher level of play perhaps there is a need to determine how they learned this and if it can be taught to others as a way to improves one's play.
In my observations of highly skillful players I have found some consistencies among players that are interesting and some that have improved my game. Some of these characteristics I have written about and some have been discounted or criticized because they are not in the geneal pool playing literature. Just because the usual authors have not observed these things does not make them any less true. I suspect that there are many other things that are not in the literature and are not common knowledge.
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outstanding posts
Joe,
I just wanted to publicly say thanks for your outstanding posts in this thread. They and the posts of Lamas along with his links do more to address the question than any of the posts from either side driven by feelings. Some things may be genuine factors in abilities, other things may simply correlate and be indications that the abilities might be there.
The truth is that we are all equal as human beings but no two humans are exactly the same with the same skills and abilities. Some groups excel in some areas while being weaker in others. Another group may be weak where the first group excels and stronger where the first group is weak. As you say there is nothing wrong with studying these things and trying to find reasons behind the differences to the possible benefit of all of us.
A friend raised fantastic quarterhorse foals. He turned out the finest horses of any of similar bloodlines I have ever seen. One key was that he started nurturing the foal several months before the mare was bred and all through the pregnancy.While the foal was nursing he tended the mare as carefully as the foal rather than the often very casual manner many breeders treat mares. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad thing but I'm thinking the day may come when we carefully control most things an unborn child receives or is exposed to in the womb to strongly affect the person they will become. While that may seem far-fetched to some we are already doing it to some extent when we attempt to restrict the intake of drugs, alcohol, and the things that have been proven generically bad for unborn children.
Hu
Joe,
I just wanted to publicly say thanks for your outstanding posts in this thread. They and the posts of Lamas along with his links do more to address the question than any of the posts from either side driven by feelings. Some things may be genuine factors in abilities, other things may simply correlate and be indications that the abilities might be there.
The truth is that we are all equal as human beings but no two humans are exactly the same with the same skills and abilities. Some groups excel in some areas while being weaker in others. Another group may be weak where the first group excels and stronger where the first group is weak. As you say there is nothing wrong with studying these things and trying to find reasons behind the differences to the possible benefit of all of us.
A friend raised fantastic quarterhorse foals. He turned out the finest horses of any of similar bloodlines I have ever seen. One key was that he started nurturing the foal several months before the mare was bred and all through the pregnancy.While the foal was nursing he tended the mare as carefully as the foal rather than the often very casual manner many breeders treat mares. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad thing but I'm thinking the day may come when we carefully control most things an unborn child receives or is exposed to in the womb to strongly affect the person they will become. While that may seem far-fetched to some we are already doing it to some extent when we attempt to restrict the intake of drugs, alcohol, and the things that have been proven generically bad for unborn children.
Hu
Good grief. You missed the point of my post entirely...but I am not surprised given that we obviously have a different viewpoint.
I said that bobroberts post was insulting because he was suggesting that being gay gave certain women an advantage. By doing so...he was talking away from their hard work, long hours of practice and study of the game.
I never thought he was gay bashing in anyway.
As for the rest of it...we can agree to disagree.
Melissa
I more a mathmatical person so LAMas I'm trying to understand the connection
Fingers=Estrogen
Estrogen=Lesbian
Twice length Fingers=2 times Lesbian
Good Bridge=Long Fingers
Good bridge=Good pool
So therefore
lesbian=good pool
got it
Or it could be that many of the women don't have children or a family
to take up alot of their time. They can spend their time practicing and getting better.
I believe now there is a new "No Conflict" tourney where they don't ask your sexual prefence at sign up. Part of pools new don't ask don't tell policy.
Fingers=Estrogen
Estrogen=Lesbian
Twice length Fingers=2 times Lesbian
Good Bridge=Long Fingers
Good bridge=Good pool
So therefore
lesbian=good pool
got it
Or it could be that many of the women don't have children or a family
to take up alot of their time. They can spend their time practicing and getting better.
I believe now there is a new "No Conflict" tourney where they don't ask your sexual prefence at sign up. Part of pools new don't ask don't tell policy.
Your premise is that time at the table is paramount to achieve excellence at shooting great pool. I contend that there are those that I hold in awe that are naturals. Their spatial perception of the game is more intuative than most.
I have witnessed entry level shooters that have within a year achieved high levels of skill and accomplishments at pool. Contrast that to others that shoot several hours a day and never get better. Of these, they cannot be instructed for they don't have a fundamental concept of the mechanics of pool - perhaps they just want to bang balls.
It takes spatial comprehension to visualize the ghost ball or double distance as a method to sink balls accurately with consistency. Further, they have difficulty with the application of the abstract concepts of english, follow, draw, squirt etc. There are those that do not have the ability to comprehend these concepts - they cannot be instructed.
Perhaps this is why some subscribe to CTE as a method to get close to pocketing balls - for it doesn't require spatial comprehension - a methodical discipline to get in the ballpark that to many is not parsimonious - to those that have spatial comprehension.
To some, the route to great pool is to hit a million balls, but then there are those, as in all persuits, that they just get it - they are the naturals and they exist. They don't need instruction and back in the day, there were no instructors to feed the fish - it was sink or swim.
When Allison, Gerda and Janette came to practice at the Hardtimes and at Southbay, they were already good but not as good as the best men there - though they spent more hours practicing. I contend that the best men had more spatial comprehension than these women. Nothing has changed for the best men are still better than the best women.
I contend that the better women players have more spatial comprehension than those that don't and that they perhaps had more testosterone in the womb.
Just saying.:smile:
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I can't see where any of this relates to a women's ability to play pool. I guess the last three paragraphs are your personal thoughts, and not any scientific conclusions.
hdgis1
New member
Pseudo-scientific at best...
As well thought out as this response may be, their is an underlying assumption that all lesbians have elevated levels of testosterone. If that were true, then all lesbian players would excel.
Chris
As well thought out as this response may be, their is an underlying assumption that all lesbians have elevated levels of testosterone. If that were true, then all lesbian players would excel.
Chris
hdgis1
New member
Is being gay gonna be like the new steroids for pool players? Take a shot of gay and run out?
Chris
hdgis1
New member
It has absolutely nothing to do with pool
Melissa,
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I did in fact misconstrue what you said, and so I owe you a sincere apology. I did think you were bashing that fella for, as you said it, gay bashing. I see now what you were trying to say and I totally misunderstood what you were trying to convey.
I am sorry Melissa, that I unloaded on you & your post. It seems you were more of an innocent bystander in this thread and I see now that you were not "bashing" those who don't understand or question homosexuality.
I probably have ruined your opinion of me forever, but nonetheless, I do want to say that I really do respect and appreciate the way you worded your response. You showed much class.
I do stand by everything else I posted. Those who are not homosexual have every right to have just as strong feelings about this subject as the homosexuals do. If they can express their feelings, so can we. Nothing more, nothing less. Being homosexual does not give that person MORE rights than the heterosexual. I know Blue Hog Rdr disagrees with me, but that's his or her choice.
I wish you all the best in your life as well as your career Melissa. You have a lot going for you.
Melissa,
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I did in fact misconstrue what you said, and so I owe you a sincere apology. I did think you were bashing that fella for, as you said it, gay bashing. I see now what you were trying to say and I totally misunderstood what you were trying to convey.
I am sorry Melissa, that I unloaded on you & your post. It seems you were more of an innocent bystander in this thread and I see now that you were not "bashing" those who don't understand or question homosexuality.
I probably have ruined your opinion of me forever, but nonetheless, I do want to say that I really do respect and appreciate the way you worded your response. You showed much class.
I do stand by everything else I posted. Those who are not homosexual have every right to have just as strong feelings about this subject as the homosexuals do. If they can express their feelings, so can we. Nothing more, nothing less. Being homosexual does not give that person MORE rights than the heterosexual. I know Blue Hog Rdr disagrees with me, but that's his or her choice.
I wish you all the best in your life as well as your career Melissa. You have a lot going for you.