I'm a BCA player from way back. The APA doesn't sound like fun to me.
Bca vs Apa
- Thread starter swilliams
- Start date
Perhaps an easier question: Boxers or Briefs?
commando !
And just in case you can't find anything to do in Las Vegas, down the hall from the BCA Nationals are two world class pro events.
Anything is better that the APA. I haven't personally played in the BCA league but I'd give it a try and/or check around your area for some local tournaments. The tournaments will give you better competition experience and you'll probably find it a better way to improve your game. The APA isn't about pool, it's a handicap game that's played with the idea of winning a trip to Vegas, that is if your team isn't split up because of handicaps rising! The APA penalizes teams for improving by making them split up when their handicaps goes above total of 23. The worse thing that's happened to pool in the last 30 years! IMHO
After checking the BCAPL website, I wish someone would start one in Cincinnati. I would probably give that try. The closest I could find is an in-house at Richard Harris' place, in Winchester, which I hear is nice, but just a little too far for me to travel each week.
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Mark the number of participants don't lie!!
APA 275,000
Prize money of Millions for the poor mismanaged APA
I thought Larry BCA HOF was founder of APA he brought pool to the Masses fyi!!!
APA is the fun league and we like it that way!!!
As usual...more bullsh*t and lies. Both leagues have their strong points. Play in the one that suits you best.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I have played in both leagues in my area. It is not the league it is the players. Sadly you will find the same players play in all the leagues and you will not notice much difference between the two. You will play in the same bars and against the same people. The rules may be different but the results and their MO will be the same.
"fun league" ??? Around here it's the only league, but almost everyone playing in it is grumbling about the BS that goes on. The sandbagging, the favoritism by LO's for their "pet teams", the way the teams are forced to split
because of the "23 rule". I keep hearing from the APA whores on AZ that it's the best because it has the most players and that everyone loves it or they wouldn't be playing! That's all BS, at least in this area. They play because
it's the only game in town, I'd bet if a poll was taken of all the APA players in the area, at least 75% would say it sucks, but it's the only league in town! All the years I played in APA I can't think of a single person who truly liked
the way it was ran! I brought a tiny independent league (Heart Of Ohio Pool League) to Cincinnati and ran it for 2 1/2 years. We quickly became the most popular league in town. All I had to tell the bar owners when I walked in
the door to try to recruit teams was that it wans't like the APA and didn't have the "23 rule" which penalized players and teams for improving, and they were sold. I was too busy with my pool room and my cuemaking business to
devote enough time to it and gave it to someone else to run. Not too long after, he had an opportunity to open a pool room in another city and just let it go, or there wouldn't be an APA league here! The only thing they have
going for them is that they were first and they had the infrastructure in place, other than that, no one really likes it, but they want a league to play in. It's OK if you're just a banger and you really don't care about pool and just
want a night out, because that's about all you get! That's all I'm going to say about the subject, I don't want to get into another long drawn out argument with the APA operators who lurk and have their scripted explanations
about how great the APA is because it has so many members. They wouldn't have all those members if the "23 rule" didn't force teams to split up and find new bangers to fill the ranks. Some think that is good, but I'd much rather
be involved in an organization of people who wanted to play pool like it should be played, instead of the sandbagging game of numbers! That's not pool, it's just a numbers game!
My opinion:
BCA=:thumbup:
APA=:rotflmao1:
I currently play in two APA leagues and one BCA league. After this session it's bye-bye APA. Maybe in another area the APA might would work for me, but unfortunately in my area, we have a fugged-up LO and a lot of sorry individuals for members. I will say that the APA, if all rules/scorekeeping are done the way they are INTENDED to be, it would be a good league for beginners and people just wanting to get out and socialize and have some fun.
In three sessions now I have not had ONE SINGLE ISSUE come up in my BCA league.
Maniac
BCA=:thumbup:
APA=:rotflmao1:
I currently play in two APA leagues and one BCA league. After this session it's bye-bye APA. Maybe in another area the APA might would work for me, but unfortunately in my area, we have a fugged-up LO and a lot of sorry individuals for members. I will say that the APA, if all rules/scorekeeping are done the way they are INTENDED to be, it would be a good league for beginners and people just wanting to get out and socialize and have some fun.
In three sessions now I have not had ONE SINGLE ISSUE come up in my BCA league.
Maniac
Scott,
I usually agree with most of your posts, but this one is so far off.
Anyone anywhere can do the math and see that most of the money APA takes in stays with the people who own the league.
Where i'm at there is 500 teams. 500 teams x 5 players = 2500 players each week. Now apa here charges 7 to play. So that's 2500 X 7 = 17500.
17500 PER WEEK. 12 weeks per session and we are at $210,000 per session. Three sessions per year = 630k
They send 14 teams to vegas every year, 4000 per team = 56000.
Payouts during the year here are about 60k a year.
so 56k and 60k = 116k
incoming 630-116 outgoing leaves 514,000. Now corp apa will take a cut to help pay for nationals, so lets say they take 150k, that still leave 350+ for those who run things.
APA is for growing teams by raising your skill level so they can bring in more cash.
Then to top it off they're national event is JUNK like i said before.
cbi
That is just here,
If you have them both available, try them both and see which one you like better.
Pretty simple.
Asking people here will get you, well.... what you've already seen. This is the kind of response that you will get anytime you pose this question on AZB. It is rather predictable.
What you won't get is a real expectation of either league, unless a poster happens to live in your area. You will get some peoples opinions based on their experiences in their own areas, which may very well be different than how that league is run locally in your area. And you will also get opinions from people who have never participated in that league but want to tell you how bad it is anyway.
Oh yeah, as someone else posted, unless you live in a major metroplex, you will probably be playing with many of the same people in both leagues anyway. That is both good, and bad, depending on the attitude of league players in your area.
Play pool. Have fun. Make up your own mind. If you decide based on responses to this thread, you aren't getting the whole picture.
Pretty simple.
Asking people here will get you, well.... what you've already seen. This is the kind of response that you will get anytime you pose this question on AZB. It is rather predictable.
What you won't get is a real expectation of either league, unless a poster happens to live in your area. You will get some peoples opinions based on their experiences in their own areas, which may very well be different than how that league is run locally in your area. And you will also get opinions from people who have never participated in that league but want to tell you how bad it is anyway.
Oh yeah, as someone else posted, unless you live in a major metroplex, you will probably be playing with many of the same people in both leagues anyway. That is both good, and bad, depending on the attitude of league players in your area.
Play pool. Have fun. Make up your own mind. If you decide based on responses to this thread, you aren't getting the whole picture.
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Are you sure you'd recognize sandbagging if you actually saw it? As a novice player (APA 4 and only 3 yrs playing) it can be difficult to tell if someone is sandbagging.
Sportsmanship on the otherhand is a differeent issue. You should play a league you enjoy, with opponents who challenge your current skill so you can improve. The league is a lot more fun if you ignore the politics and focus on winning your match and playing to the best of your ability. You can accomplish this in any pool league. The choice for you is what is available in your area and which fits you the best. For you it might be the APA or the BCA. Others have the choice of VNEA TAP etc.
Worry about what you are doing and how you conduct yourself. Every league is going to have someone who rubs you the wrong way, it's life.
I want to echo this just a bit. I have always resisted the temptation of calling someone a "sandbagger" because to me it just seems too easy an excuse for crybabies. But this session we ran into a new team in our league, with players no one had heard of before, a bunch of young guys from the local university. The first time we played them, both of their SL3's were playing, shall we say, "rather well". My contention was their cue ball control. It was quite good for an SL3. Their player numbers were all much lower then mine so I assumed they had been playing longer than me. So I let myself slip and starting thinking of them as sandbaggers and even talked to a few people on other teams about them to see if they concurred.
Fast forward to this week. We played them again, this time at our home location, which is much smaller. We have to share practice tables, which is actually kind of cool because we can get to know each other a lot more. And because of that I found out that these guys were indeed all new players and simply got old recycled player numbers. They have very low matches-played results, so their handicaps are gonna be skewed a bit for a while. And their threes didn't quite control the ball as well this week either. Their handicaps will settle in soon, and aren't too far off right now. (One of their SL3's will have to go up to a 4 soon, but he ain't bagging it. One of their SL5's probably ought to be an SL4 as well... it can work both ways, especially with new players.)
Moral of the story is that it is quite easy to get caught up in calling someone a sandbagger. The truth usually is much different. I have properly chastised myself, and will also make it a point to go back to those other players that I went and complained to, and report my revelations, and my mistake.
{Yes, I'm sure there are blatant examples of cheaters out there. My point is that I don't believe it is as widespread as many believe it to be. And that it is real easy to accuse someone of cheating when they were simply on a good streak that night. That does happen. A lot.}
dub,
I always respect your posts. You seem to me to be a level-headed guy that tries your darndest to un-stir the sh*t pot on these types of threads.
But.....I gotta ask myself........If I've been on this site for about five years now, seen NUMEROUS APA-bashing threads, seen few (if any) BCA-bashing threads, seen the posters on these threads run about a ratio of 4-1 AGAINST the APA, is it unreasonable to think there might be something not right with this league system? I mean, if I had never played in a league in my life, then had read all that I have on this site over the last five years on the subject of the different leagues, I think I would at least respect the power of the posters. It is akin to the contestants on the game show "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire" polling the audience, getting a high percentage of the audience voting for answer "B", and then NOT choosing answer "B". Be honest, didn't you ever see a contestant do this and then you thought they were foolish for NOT going with what the audience voted for? I don't think that all the negativity about the APA you read here on this site is made up. And....some of the positive comments here about the APA come from some LO's and former LO's. These are VERY BIASED opinions. In my daily walk in life, I journey into MANY a bar and poolhall (three leagues a week and tourneys on weekends sometimes). The only negative thing I have heard about the BCA leagues (in my home area) is that some of the players are w-a-a-y too cocky. I have NEVER heard a disparaging remark on the SYSTEM itself. OTOH, I have heard negative comments about the APA in literally EVERY bar and poolhall I have been in. That speaks volumes, at least to ME it does.
Keep in mind, these are only MY opinions. I always try to keep an open mind and respect the opinion of others.
Maniac
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I appreciate the kind words, and return them to you as well.
I don't doubt for a minute what you say is truly your experience, and that it is anything less than truthful. I do, however, doubt that everything that is written here by all who pile on is true in all cases, everywhere APA is played across this country.
The reason I try to remain as neutral as possible is this. I do not and have not seen the issues that are commonly raised against the APA. So, in my one case, it isn't true. So, that means that it isn't necessarily true in every case, everywhere.
Also, the internet is a wonderful thing, as is this forum. But you know very well the pack mentality that any forum on any subject will encounter, and this is no exception. I merely try to provide a bit of objectivity, for those who come on and ask about the different league systems. Because I certainly know what they will see here. Which isn't necessarily what they might see in their local environment.
I do not have any experience with the BCAPL system, so I do not speak about it. I find that there are plenty here who will speak about APA, even if they themselves haven't played in it.
I'm sure that if BCAPL were available here, I'd probably give it a try, too. Which is all I advocate anyone to do, try the local leagues in their area, to see how they are run, and how the experience is. Because as I have said many times, APA ain't broken here, so it can't be broken everywhere. If there are issues, it is usually a local phenomenom. (Other than the usual 23-rule, take what you make, and slop complaints, which is a whole other discussion.) The league I play in isn't perfect, either, but it isn't so poorly run as to drive me away from it. The scope of running a small league is lost on a lot of folks, let alone a whole territory. That doesn't excuse the poorly run ones, but it does explain why stuff can go off the rails. Some people aren't equipped to handle running something with a large scope. I won't sit here and stand behind the "250,000 members" argument, because indeed APA is probably the only thing available in many areas, like mine. But you must admit, APA is also played in many areas where BCAPL, TAP, VNEA and other alternatives are also available. So the system must be working in general, for those for whom it is designed.... beginner to intermediate pool players looking for a fun and competitive night out playing pool. Those who are a higher caliber of player need not apply, nor worry about it so much. And everyone here on AZB is a MUCH higher caliber of player, right? :grin-square: So why all the worry about it?
I'll stop now, I've passed my sell-by date on this posting. Sorry to keep being level-headed in an APA thread, but face it, I've been doing it for several months now, I doubt that it will stop anytime soon.
Have fun. Play pool.
I am not a BCAPL or an APA member so the above post really got me thinking about the numbers and it is just amazing at where the money is going. Maybe I just dont understand it and someone may clear it up for me someday, but I decided to actually do some research on my own and look at the two major leagues systems and try to come up with which one I would play in if I had that option.
Here is what I came up with by just looking at each league website and using the information that gave me to see how it is managed. I would imagine the websites dont have all the information needed to be 100 percent accurate, but it has enough information to give me "the just" of it.
The APA only shows there national tournaments and it list all the qualifiers to make it to nationals but it does not show added money for any of the qualifiers. With that, I guess the APA headquarters only adds money to Nationals and thats all.
APA- 265,000 members
membership fee $25
6.625 mil in just membership fee's.
Out of the 6.6 mil, I could only find 1.5 mil of that being used for the prize fund at the national championships so I imagine 5.1mil goes to the organization, not the members. Now that is just from membership fee's, so that doesnt even consider the weekly fees that goes to the district owner/league operator/and national headquarters. so I just cant imagine how much money is actually un-accounted for.
BCA- 60,000 members
membership fee $15
$900,000 in member fees.
I looked at the past events and upcoming events calender over a 12 month period and there is a ton of information on the BCAPL website so I stopped counting once the total was around 450k. I figured that 450k was enough to pay for travel expenses and salary's over a 12 month period for the management of the BCAPL.
I was really amazed at how the BCAPL sponsors so many tournaments, local, regional, national, it didnt matter, seemed like they were adding money to anything dealing with pool and they have a program to actually apply for your tournament to be sponsored by the BCAPL.
To sum it up and this is just my opinion on how I see the two leagues.
The APA is a business that is in it to make money, it sells the idea of having a chance to get an all expense paid trip to Vegas and win thousands. It also has a section to buy a sanctioned area, so if you have to purchase it, then someone has to pay for it and that would be the members.
The BCAPL is a more of an organization that collects a one time fee from its members and then sets up major tournaments throughout the US for any of its members to play in. Just by looking at there website it shows how actively involved they are with making changes and promoting pool.
Also, the BCAPL was not trying to sell sanctioned areas, they were willing to give you a sactioned area if you could prove that you are willing to do the work.
A real no brainer for me, play BCAPL if its available, if its not, try and start one if you have the players available. If I was playing in an APA league, I would be asking for a raise in money added or more tournaments available to all members.
Assuming your numbers are correct then you might have a point. That is assuming that your League Operator does not give out trophies or pins or placques or shirts or any of the other things that some leagues give out.
Using your numbers and assuming an average divison size of 10 teams that is 50 divisions. Assuming divison winners and playoff winners get trophies (that is what happens in my area) at approx $15 each that is 12000 per session. factor in everything else and you can take another 50K off the 350K.
I am guessing a 500 team league has a staff of 4-6 people with salaries and maybe benefits, an office, computer networks etc. not to mention business expenses, mileage and everything else. You can knock another 200K off the total.
By my math that leaves 100K for the League Operator who runs a league of 500 teams and (at 8 players a team) 4,000 members.
That is a nice salary sure. But do they earn it. I am guessing that they earn every penny of it through the hard work to set up an run a business that involves weekends, evenings and probably a great deal of time.
Leagueguy
Maries Husband, you are correct, you don't have all the info. And I don't either, so take this as it's intended....
Each APA Territory has seperate Divisions. Each Division plays four sessions a year. In our League, the first and second place teams get a payout at the end of each session. The session we won it was around $800 per team, and $400 per team for second place. Yes, split up to 8 ways, depending on how many players on that team. Thats $4800 per year paid out in our 12-14 team division alone.
Our League has a bunch of Divisions, I don't even know the number. There are 7 in our half of the League, so I assume there is a similar number in the other half. (Our league covers most of the state of Maine.) 14 individual divisions, getting those payouts, four times a year. $4800 per division x 14 divisions = $67,200. Per year. Before anything to do with Vegas. In little old Maine.
Then, at our State Vegas qualifying tournament, each team that is there gets paid for each round they survive, including simply making it to the tournament. It wasn't quite as much for us as winning the league, but I think it was around $250 per team, per round (four rounds). Plus the chance for the Vegas trip.
Our League sends 7 teams (4 for 8-ball, 3 for 9-ball) plus a couple of scotch doubles teams, and a couple of singles competitors. That is substantial, as well.
So to summarize this a bit, yes, the APA is in business to make money. But there are payouts at the local level, so it isn't quite as cut and dried as your calculations seem.
And yes, I'm sure there are Leagues that don't pay back as much as our does. But I bet there are others that pay as much, or maybe more. Which brings us back to my original statement about checking things out at each individuals location to see what is what. Rather than information disseminated on a message board.
Each APA Territory has seperate Divisions. Each Division plays four sessions a year. In our League, the first and second place teams get a payout at the end of each session. The session we won it was around $800 per team, and $400 per team for second place. Yes, split up to 8 ways, depending on how many players on that team. Thats $4800 per year paid out in our 12-14 team division alone.
Our League has a bunch of Divisions, I don't even know the number. There are 7 in our half of the League, so I assume there is a similar number in the other half. (Our league covers most of the state of Maine.) 14 individual divisions, getting those payouts, four times a year. $4800 per division x 14 divisions = $67,200. Per year. Before anything to do with Vegas. In little old Maine.
Then, at our State Vegas qualifying tournament, each team that is there gets paid for each round they survive, including simply making it to the tournament. It wasn't quite as much for us as winning the league, but I think it was around $250 per team, per round (four rounds). Plus the chance for the Vegas trip.
Our League sends 7 teams (4 for 8-ball, 3 for 9-ball) plus a couple of scotch doubles teams, and a couple of singles competitors. That is substantial, as well.
So to summarize this a bit, yes, the APA is in business to make money. But there are payouts at the local level, so it isn't quite as cut and dried as your calculations seem.
And yes, I'm sure there are Leagues that don't pay back as much as our does. But I bet there are others that pay as much, or maybe more. Which brings us back to my original statement about checking things out at each individuals location to see what is what. Rather than information disseminated on a message board.
From what I can find online, every LO pays National APA 20% of what they take in. So from that $630k/year, $126k goes to National & $504k stays there. Then take out the $116k in awards & that leave $388k. From there just take out what they pay for organizational purposes (salary for staff, office space, patches, trophies, etc...) & that will get you what your LO cleared.
Also, concerning the membership fees, if my information is correct, $8 of the $25 stays with the local LO & the remaining $17 goes to National. Assuming that's correct, National APA generates roughly $4.5M from memberships.
Assuming that you are correct and if I am using Marie's Husbans info, then the APA takes in 4.5 million and pays out 1.5 million for the National Championships. That leaves 3 mil to off set the costs of operating a league that requires 30 + staff, (I assume that is close) operating expenses, office space, travel and accomodation to Vegas for all the staff twice a year (april nationals and august nationals), riviera hotel convention costs, sponsorship of the WPBA and junior programs and everything else that I am missing.
Not a ton of money left over at the end of it all.
My point to everyone is that by my calculations, using the information provided by the same people who slam the APA , is that the APA is not robbing players like everyone thinks they are. Do they, as a business make some money, yes I hope so because i love playing and a stron APA business means that it will be hear in the future.
Leagueguy