Quality life of professional players

There are thousands over the world practicing seriously besides the recreational players, enough to support the industry and make profit for whoever does from Pool...

Pool can be giant but the people making profit out of it have to see that seriously.

But for one thing it won't be if for e.g. lack of respect is displayed for champions of the world (which is in this forum more than several times - as if it's nothing of an accomplishment to reach a world title in Pool..).

You don't have to like a world champion as a person, you just have to respect him for what he/she is: a superior athlete.

Just form a Professional Pool League and do not let them be "touched" so easily..
I'm happy many experienced members share this idea.

Young kids will have something to look up to and this will sustain the promotion of it in the long run..

Recreational players will be fans paying to watch, supporting Pool, this has happened in sports where serious work has been done. Basketball is an example as I already mentioned. Millions of recreational players - paying fans and Professional Leagues that is the dream of young kids playing the sport. They know when they "get there" they will have respect and earn a good living.

Imagine how much deticated Pool players love the sport, Basketball costs nothing to play. Pool players spend hard all these years and work even harder! A little respect to this opportunity should do it..
Petros
 
Last edited:
justnum said:
If this board gets any more cluttered I'd think I am in a major network sports VIP fan area.

So some promoter decided to pay 10K, 15K for a top talent to provide film footage for a straight to consumer sell. In the big times like NFL, NBA, NHL, Baseball there is a recruiting session, its not just a quick call saying hey I want you to do something for me, its more of a marriage, training facilities are provided, support staff are there to handle basic public relations they do travel on a bus together but they are on the road a lot more. All the expenses for a major network sports event is put into creating the atmosphere. Having the players prepped, having the tech equipment reliable and ensuring their are no production glitches. All production equipment is first class. A camera mount for a major network event is more expensive then the beds the top pros sleep on when on the road in the bus. The amount of cabling at a stadium for a major event is enough to outweigh the bus full of players and that is because everything is triplicated and then kept triplicate in stockpile. The idea that the production is first and the expenses are based heavily on making sure the production equipment is at the same level of competition as the players it films.

In the case of the new pool era production equipment is more of a patch up job. Where is the expense budget? It can't be found in equipment, doubtful its in advertising? its got me stumped.



What is wrong with the quality of life is that the business end at least the new business end doesn't have money. At least the kind of money to interest the best players, or to display top quality production equipment. It may interest less then the best or new players.

So the next best play is to hype up a new talent. But pool isn't like a full-contact sport. As the players age they just get better. The matches I've seen once an old pro knows he has beat a young buck he just strings him along.

Maybe for the older pros the part of the game that is new is seeing the new guys deal with old problems. For a retirement package getting a second chance at doing it over again seems worth it. Maybe they stick around maybe they don't. Either way somebody has to sell something to fans, usually something new and "different."

Also in major sports broadcasting the sell is for attendance or broadcasting rights, not DVD sales. The older pros have experience with it. But you know how new tech is everyone thinks they have a leg up on the competition.

The quality of life for players is declining because any consumer can go to a tech shop and pick up production equipment because of the falling costs of it. This means less top tier business people producing events and more bottom tier operators trying to piece together a production.

I do not underestimate camera work, it is a union job just like lighting. But seeing a low quality production in action turns heads. There is a difference between a hobby project and a professional business. But you know the story about knockoff street, it has the look and feel once its sold that is all that matters.
Click to expand...

You are delusional, I have tried to read your posts and the more I read the more I think that you don't have a clue about anything.

Most things in life are pretty simple if you use common sense, let me try and break this down for you.

There isn't a lot of money in pool because not very many people PAY to watch it. When I speak about the people paying to watch pool it includes those who pay for tickets to watch it live, people who buy DVD's or pay to watch in on the internet.

If someone is providing a venue to allow people to view pool if they are smart they will try and make sure their expenses are less than that they take in. So if they get 100 viewers at $20 dollars a piece they had better be able to travel to the event, pay royalties, setup, purchase equipment, etc... for lest than $2,000.

This whole scenario changes when you have an event that millions of people watch like football, basketball, golf, etc... because they are able to get millions of dollars in advertising, with the additional money they can buy the most expensive equipment and talent available to do a world class production.

This is the way of the world, if someone can come up with a business where even thousands of people are buying a pool PPV, DVD, or anything else related to pool then you would see much better production, bigger pay for the players, etc...

Right now we have to go with what is available. I am willing to put up money to provide great players a chance to make money with very little risk. This isn't a great way to make money but luckily I have other ways to earn an income. I am amazed at how good of a job TAR and others do on a shoestring budget to capture and transmit these matches all over the world.

I continue to be amazed at how much players are paid in sports like the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc... but it is based on the number of people watching and if someone can bring in viewers they will get paid.

Common sense is anything but common.
 
I have to say that I am amazed at how well TAR and Accu-stats does with the PPV productions having purchased and watched both. Yeah it might not be ESPN or whatever but we are comparing tens of thousands in equipment to a couple million in equipment, its apples and oranges here. A couple million viewers watching TV sports and a couple hundred to a couple thousand watching online pool. I consider myself a hobbyist but even as a hobby my equipment is several thousand dollars and all the time, where does it go?

I think pool fans appreciate all the streaming and if they did not then I would not do it. The people streaming are benefiting the fans, the players and the sport for sure, none of us are getting rich at all. Most of us are doing it because we love the game and the fan support is great too. People ask me if I do it for a living, I almost fall over and sometimes I joke and tell them I am pulling in a 1/4 mill a year, haha, if I had to depend on this to eat I would be living in the YMCA. :o
 
There is money in Pool if Pool gets organized properly.
Major sports are organized properly and attract fans/recreational players. Those people pay nothing to play their sport if they like compared to amateur Pool players...
Amateur Pool players support the industry all these years, and most of them just want to enjoy Pool and just see it getting where it belongs..
Keep repeating this will never happen does not benefit anyone, the question is do some people that organize things really want Pool to be successful?
Do they really love Pool?
Do they really respect it and the players as well or they just want to make money out of it easy and fast?
Based on my experience in Europe for which I can speak more accurately, most of them (95%) simply don't!!!
I cannot estimate with the same accuracy about USA, but as I see there are a lot of complains by members here as well...
Do some people want to admit the truth finally? When you face the facts there is a chance that someday something good may come out. When you state that nothing can be done better than today, then there will never be any progress..
Petros
 
pooltchr said:
I think most of us here do appreciate and respect the game of pool, and respect those who have developed the skill to play at the highest levels. However, and this is a big one, we are a very small group. So while we know from personal experience how much skill and work it takes to win a US Open or the Derby, very few people outside of our circle have a clue, or even care.
The guy who takes his date to the pool room Friday night, the couple who play league every Monday night, the Lawyer with the pooltable in his recreation room, most of them are probably not even aware that there are professional players, much less, who they are. Oh, a few of them might recognize Jeanette, but half of them probably don't know her name.

Serious players, like the kind who spend time on pool forums, are few and far between. To most of the world, pool is just a recreational game. We probably need to remind ourselves of that from time to time. Like it or not, we are not your "normal" pool players or fans.

Steve
Click to expand...

great post Steve.......look at it this way......WE as in the members here know that this site and onepocket.org are the bar none goto's for pool info......its so great that everyone that plays or shoots pool ought to know.......

there are what 30million + people who have participated in pool in the united states.........i don't know about world wide numbers but I'm sure its a big big big number........

this site has 20k members and Steve is correct many of us here are not "normal" players or fans if the normal ones were here we would have hundreds of thousands of members...............
 
This is a link to a video showing the kind of respect a Pool champion of the world gets by people who organize things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBCm-vAXHYo&feature=fvsr
He appears after 7 minutes on this one.

Maybe that champion is not wearing a tuxedo or making a formal appearance but why would he? He just does his job, promoting the sport at the same time, under any given conditions.
Was that really necessary to have the table next to him given for recreation? Just for a few bucks?
Was that really necessary to have loud club music playing during the perfomance of a living legend?
How do you expect people that don't know anything about the game to get in touch with it and respect it?
When people that organize things do not respect it at all?
When they let people there think that at the table next to them there's only some "funny" guy who just plays alone (they possibly wonder what for..)?
How do you expect Pool to ever be promoted this way?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. People there with some amount of work got their publicity and profit out of this. What happens next or kind of damage they do to the sport when they present it this way does not concern them..
Do we blame the champions or the faithful amateur players about this?
Are we still joking around about which people are really responsible for the great loss of opportunity in Pool?...
 
Last edited:
Jerry Forsyth said:
If you love pool you do not have to make it your profession. In the US at least it is best considered a pleasurable diversion form the workaday world, not a means of supporting yourself and family. I cannot think of any pro players or hustlers who ever retired comfortably at a decent age due to their winnings. Greenleaf, one the best ever, was buried in a paupers grave. Mosconi worked into his 80's. Fats died broke. So did UJ and many others.

Sure, if you are among the best five players in the country you can earn a living. But it will take you years to find out if you are there and then you are still not going to get rich. Now, if never having to work a 9-5 job is important to you, more important than basic creature comforts like a house and a family, go on and give it a go. But if life security is important to you, get a career that pays a salary and use your vacation time to play in pro events. Anyone can play in most of them, just post your entry fee and screw your cue together. No qualifications required. Pool is a very fun pastime until you have to win the next game to eat the next day.

Take a look around. Most of the top pros have other sources of income. Archer owns a poolroom. Varner has had his billiard supply biz for many years. And on and on.
Click to expand...



Best post to date! Nice observations Jerry!!!

Maniac
 
Sad.....

Petros Andrikop said:
This is a link to a video showing the kind of respect a Pool champion of the world gets by people who organize things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBCm-vAXHYo&feature=fvsr
He appears after 7 minutes on this one.

Maybe that champion is not wearing a tuxedo or making a formal appearance but why would he? He just does his job, promoting the sport at the same time, under any given conditions.
Was that really necessary to have the table next to him given for recreation? Just for a few bucks?
Was that really necessary to have loud club music playing during the perfomance of a living legend?
How do you expect people that don't know anything about the game to get in touch with it and respect it?
When people that organize things do not respect it at all?
When they let people there think that at the table next to them there's only some "funny" guy who just plays alone (they possibly wonder what for..)?
How do you expect Pool to ever be promoted this way?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. People there with some amount of work got their publicity and profit out of this. What happens next or kind of damage they do to the sport when they present it this way does not concern them..
Do we blame the champions or the faithful amateur players about this?
Are we still joking around about which people are really responsible for the great loss of opportunity in Pool?...
Click to expand...

Man I couldn't bear to watch it for more than 10 or 15 seconds. Its total disrespect to one of the greatest players ever. I really felt sorry for Earl. Even worse for the sport of pool.
 
Petros Andrikop said:
This is a link to a video showing the kind of respect a Pool champion of the world gets by people who organize things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBCm-vAXHYo&feature=fvsr
He appears after 7 minutes on this one.

Maybe that champion is not wearing a tuxedo or making a formal appearance but why would he? He just does his job, promoting the sport at the same time, under any given conditions.
Was that really necessary to have the table next to him given for recreation? Just for a few bucks?
Was that really necessary to have loud club music playing during the perfomance of a living legend?
How do you expect people that don't know anything about the game to get in touch with it and respect it?
When people that organize things do not respect it at all?
When they let people there think that at the table next to them there's only some "funny" guy who just plays alone (they possibly wonder what for..)?
How do you expect Pool to ever be promoted this way?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. People there with some amount of work got their publicity and profit out of this. What happens next or kind of damage they do to the sport when they present it this way does not concern them..
Do we blame the champions or the faithful amateur players about this?
Are we still joking around about which people are really responsible for the great loss of opportunity in Pool?...
Click to expand...

You sure do seem to have a lot of ideas about how things should be but very little understanding of why things are the way they are. I also think you have some serious hero worship issues.

Some posts in this thread remind me of a teenager whining about how unfair life is without having any idea about what life really is.

Edit: I just watched some of that video and what exactly is so horrible about it? I see Earl working, doing what he does in front of fans. Most serious players really are not into the whole trick shot thing but I didn't see anyone being disrespectful. Say what you want about Earl but he is not afraid to work or get out and try to make things happen. Just because it is an event that isn't black tie with a red carpet doesn't mean he isn't getting any respect.
 
Last edited:
Petros Andrikop said:
This is a link to a video showing the kind of respect a Pool champion of the world gets by people who organize things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBCm-vAXHYo&feature=fvsr
He appears after 7 minutes on this one.

Maybe that champion is not wearing a tuxedo or making a formal appearance but why would he? He just does his job, promoting the sport at the same time, under any given conditions.
Was that really necessary to have the table next to him given for recreation? Just for a few bucks?
Was that really necessary to have loud club music playing during the perfomance of a living legend?
How do you expect people that don't know anything about the game to get in touch with it and respect it?
When people that organize things do not respect it at all?
When they let people there think that at the table next to them there's only some "funny" guy who just plays alone (they possibly wonder what for..)?
How do you expect Pool to ever be promoted this way?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. People there with some amount of work got their publicity and profit out of this. What happens next or kind of damage they do to the sport when they present it this way does not concern them..
Do we blame the champions or the faithful amateur players about this?
Are we still joking around about which people are really responsible for the great loss of opportunity in Pool?...
Click to expand...


Boy, Earl sure does like to tap those balls in. He spent more time setting up the shots then actually shooting them. The best exhibitions flow from shot to shot with the player chatting with the audience while he is setting up the next shot. Check out Dr. Cue, Tom Rossman sometime.

It's all in a days work for a player like Earl, who was probably being paid somewhere in the $750-1,000 range for the day. He comes in, does his thing, entertains the locals and moves on to his next gig. This is how a modern day pro player makes his living, supplementing his tournament winnings and endorsements. It still beats digging ditches for a living! No disrespect intended, but that's how life is if you're a pro pool player.
 
It isn't just pool. It is true of damn near all 'playing' for a living.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/one-in-five-italian-riders-still-looking-for-a-team

Loddo has won 25 races during his nine-year career...
He has revealed the costs of being a professional outweighed his salary, “In 2010 I earned 1,600 Euro a month but considering all the costs, I ended up losing money,” he told Gazzetta dello Sport.
 
Last edited:
Slh said:
How is the quality of the pro players? Do they live in good money condition or not? I heard Strickland is struggling. I wonder if it is propitious economically to became a pool player. Looking at the payout of most tournament i could say "no", but i'm not sure.
I'm not talking about only top players.
Click to expand...



Ed McMahon , Randy Quaid , Tesla...... All kinds of people with talent (Tesla ), and people who are human shipwrecks that had but ended up with nothing .
 
At his peak, Greenleaf was making $2000 a week in appearance money. That was in the 1920's (it would likely be $50K in todays dollars)...and as you said, died broke. That's what drugs and alcohol will do for ya!

For the record, Archer owns that room with at least two other people...(nice room that it is)...so nobody is rolling in the dough.

Varner probably does okay, but he cannot compete with the big boys like Cuestix, Cue & Case, and the Fury gang. He's not gettin rich either...yet.

I know for a fact, that Jack White made more than a million dollars, strictly from pool (mostly from exhibitions, over 40 years). How much of it he kept, I can't say, but he lives comfortably in S. CA. He always let his wife Mollie handle the finances, and she was a very smart woman.

Except for very few top level performers, the real money in pool is in the entertaining end...period. People have paid for good entertainment forever.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jerry Forsyth said:
If you love pool you do not have to make it your profession. In the US at least it is best considered a pleasurable diversion form the workaday world, not a means of supporting yourself and family. I cannot think of any pro players or hustlers who ever retired comfortably at a decent age due to their winnings. Greenleaf, one the best ever, was buried in a paupers grave. Mosconi worked into his 80's. Fats died broke. So did UJ and many others.

Sure, if you are among the best five players in the country you can earn a living. But it will take you years to find out if you are there and then you are still not going to get rich. Now, if never having to work a 9-5 job is important to you, more important than basic creature comforts like a house and a family, go on and give it a go. But if life security is important to you, get a career that pays a salary and use your vacation time to play in pro events. Anyone can play in most of them, just post your entry fee and screw your cue together. No qualifications required. Pool is a very fun pastime until you have to win the next game to eat the next day.

Take a look around. Most of the top pros have other sources of income. Archer owns a poolroom. Varner has had his billiard supply biz for many years. And on and on.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
At his peak, Greenleaf was making $2000 a week in appearance money. That was in the 1920's (it would likely be $50K in todays dollars)...and as you said, died broke. That's what drugs and alcohol will do for ya!

For the record, Archer owns that room with at least two other people...(nice room that it is)...so nobody is rolling in the dough.

Varner probably does okay, but he cannot compete with the big boys like Cuestix, Cue & Case, and the Fury gang. He's not gettin rich either...yet.

I know for a fact, that Jack White made more than a million dollars, strictly from pool (mostly from exhibitions, over 40 years). How much of it he kept, I can't say, but he lives comfortably in S. CA. He always let his wife Mollie handle the finances, and she was a very smart woman.

Except for very few top level performers, the real money in pool is in the entertaining end...period. People have paid for good entertainment forever.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott makes a great point there is a peak earning time for a pro and then after that it levels off. The point being if you don't blow the cash during those peak earning years you might be able to invest in new ways, in the case of Archer a pool room.

The idea that peak earning years do not last is rarely discussed because everyone is too busy trying to keep those times going. The IPT was the peak of pool, everything else just doesn't measure up. It was the most decadent pool event ever had.

Scott makes a great point about how exciting the story is in the beginning and brings the experience to tell us what happens in the end.

If Greenleaf wasn't involved in the wrong crowd, what do you think could've happened?
 
Last edited:
JCIN:
I just pointed out that things can be a lot better..

What is wrong in this picture is that Pool does not get the promotion it needs. This is a setback.
I believe most players would agree with me.

If you see it differently that is your right, but "attacking" a person and not his opinion is just wrong..

I have no issues, Mr. Strickland is not my friend..
I have played competitive Pool for over 20 years, beating most of the Greek champions (some of which have reached first places in Europe..) and even got some good victories against very strong European players. I have worked hard to achieve this and first places in Greece among super strong easily A class players (guys beating even world champions..).
I have zero complains, I got what I wanted from playing Pool..

I have the privilige of being a Doctor, saving people's lifes every day so I do not need playing Pool for a living or making profit out of it in any way..
That is why my opinion serves no personal purpose and is only expressed out of the desire for perhaps seeing Pool becoming what it can be one day..
Believe it Sir, I do know what life is all about...

Lack of respect for the game or the World champions is always the wrong direction..
IMHO if you fail to see this in that video then you couldn't prove my point better!!!
People in charge of things don't see it and that is the main reason things don't make enough progress..
Petros
 
Last edited:
Petros Andrikop said:
JCIN:
I just pointed out that things can be a lot better..

What is wrong in this picture is that Pool does not get the promotion it needs. This is a setback.
I believe most players would agree with me.

If you see it differently that is your right, but "attacking" a person and not his opinion is just wrong..

I have no issues, Mr. Strickland is not my friend..
I have played competitive Pool for over 20 years, beating most of the Greek champions (some of which have reached first places in Europe..) and even got some good victories against very strong European players. I have worked hard to achieve this and first places in Greece among super strong easily A class players (guys beating even world champions..).
I have zero complains, I got what I wanted from playing Pool..

I have the privilige of being a Doctor, saving people's lifes every day so I do not need playing Pool for a living or making profit out of it in any way..
That is why my opinion serves no personal purpose and is only expressed out of the desire for perhaps seeing Pool becoming what it can be one day..
Believe it Sir, I do know what life is all about...

Lack of respect for the game or the World champions is always the wrong direction..
IMHO if you fail to see this in that video then you couldn't prove my point better!!!
People in charge of things don't see it and that is the main reason things don't make enough progress..
Petros
Click to expand...

Could you please point out exactly where the disrespect is? I didn't see it.

The fact that you are a doctor would lead me to be believe that you are probably not without resources or the ability to make an attempt to change things for the better. It honestly sounds a lot like sour grapes over some internal political history with some group or federation has colored your opinions on the game in general. That or you simply have unrealistic expectations.

I'm all for moving the game forward. I just don't see how post after post about how screwed up it is with no suggestions for how to fix it does anyone much good.
 
jay helfert said:
Boy, Earl sure does like to tap those balls in. He spent more time setting up the shots then actually shooting them. The best exhibitions flow from shot to shot with the player chatting with the audience while he is setting up the next shot. Check out Dr. Cue, Tom Rossman sometime.

It's all in a days work for a player like Earl, who was probably being paid somewhere in the $750-1,000 range for the day. He comes in, does his thing, entertains the locals and moves on to his next gig. This is how a modern day pro player makes his living, supplementing his tournament winnings and endorsements. It still beats digging ditches for a living! No disrespect intended, but that's how life is if you're a pro pool player.
Click to expand...

That was the way with snooker before prosperity struck.
Winning a title was just for the glory, the first prize money was not much more than the entry fee.
The real money was in giving exhibitions. and titles increased your fee.:D.
 
JCIN:
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have made specific suggestions and I'm happy that quite a few members share the idea of forming a Professional Pool league which is the main idea.
I wrote about it in this thread already, it's basically what happened in Snooker (not in one day..)

I mentioned my profession only to state that I have never been into Pool for the money.
I tried to change things for better in Greek Pool but I failed, you cannot do it by yourself.. People, especially promoters have to change their approach..
At least all these years besides being an average good player I gave free lessons to every young kid I came across.
Alexandros Kazakis, a fine 18 year old kid, member of the Greek team that was victorius over USA in 2010 (beating C. Duel at that event) has learned a few things from me as well and yes I have managed to beat him once (only..) in competition (he has already reached 3rd place in European Championship).

So I have played good and I have been successful in one of the greatest jobs a person can have. I do know reality to a great extend.. Not having all the answers I only try to think ahead.
I have zero complains personally from Pool, I thank everyday God for my life!

So this is not about me, my only complain about Pool is that it doesn't have the place in society it can have..
I'm gonna have to stick to my point of view: If pool promoters fail to see what damage to the sport is done when Pool is presented in such a way as in that video then we're still far off the right track..

Anyway, this is just a matter of having a different opinion, I have always tought myself to respect everyone in Pool and do the best I can about it.

Hopefully soon I will finish writting the first Greek Pool book ever and contribute a bit more to it..

Just listen to the players guys, there are a lot of us who love Pool and want nothing personally out of it othen than the satisfaction of the game being played well..
Maybe the useful ideas presented by a lot members in this thread will lead in the future to better conditions in Pool. That's all..
Petros
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top