ATTENTION- ABP News : ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events

[justadub]

Well, we gotta give the ABP credit.... the Main Forum has been rather quiet lately. This will keep things lively for a while.

I agree that they need to get a handle on the way PR is handled. For some reason they continue to "step in it" here on the forum. It really doesn't have to come off like it has.

Mr. Walsh, I know it's not your responsibility with the group, but someone from the ABP obviously is in communication with you. Do they not realize how they come off here, or do they not care?

 

[Black-Balled]

Well, we gotta give the ABP credit....For some reason they continue to "step in it" here on the forum.
... Do they not realize how they come off here, or do they not care?

Do you think it is largely to do with the fact that many people are looking to shoot the ABP down? I do (think that!)...

This communication was better than previous ones, no?\ I think one must admit it is, regardless of reaction to... At least is had a line or 2 re: what it had to offer, not just take.

That said, is there blood in a stone? The ABP wishes to find out for itself, it appears.

 

[Island Drive]

Do you think it is largely to do with the fact that many people are looking to shoot the ABP down? I do (think that!)...

This communication was better than previous ones, no?\ I think one must admit it is, regardless of reaction to... At least is had a line or 2 re: what it had to offer, not just take.

That said, is there blood in a stone? The ABP wishes to find out for itself, it appears.

Reeks of conflit of interest and personal agendas........................

 

[jay helfert]

ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events



From the Association of Billiard Professionals


The ABP is pleased to announce the Official ABP Rules of the men's pro tour of pool. These rules were created by the top pro players in the world. These rules and guidleines will go into effect in 2012. The following is the established guidelines and rules of the Association of Billiard Professionals.


Sanctioning guidelines to be a national United States ABP Ranking Points event:

$25,000 minimum added
$300 minimum entry fee *unless the added money is above $25,000
Event must seed at minimum the top 16 ranked ABP players properly from #1-16 (not random seeding)
Seeding will go by ABP rankings
* ABP encourages all promoters to use the ABP Pro Rules
All new promoters must have the added prize money and entries sent in advance before the tournament dates. Contact ABP for details


Format: All of the following applies to 10-Ball & 9-Ball.


Winner breaks
9-Ball minimum race to 11
10-Ball minimum race to 9
Double elimination. *if a major network televised event, reasonable exceptions can be made in formats
One race finals


Rules:
Call shot & call safety
Missed shot or accidental pocketing even in safes will be Shoot Again option by the opponent
Break box
10-Ball/9ball does not count on break anywhere
Rack your own balls
(*more rules will be added later, these are the ABP Rule basics)


Benefits for promoters:
ABP will publicize and encourage all pro players to participate including the top 50 ranked

Promoters may use ABP pro players in advertisements to promote the event
ABP will provide pro players to attend pro-am events/charities if applicable to the event

Unification of rules and format helps the sport. Promoters will benefit from using the rules and format that the pro membership desires and avoid confusion of rules

To sanction your event or to join the ABP, please contact us at ABPpropool@gmail.com or visit http://www.abp-players.com/

The Association of Billiard Professionals was formed in March of 2010 with the goal of uniting the world’s greatest players. The ABP is harnessing the power of all professional players for a common goal: to improve the sport of billiards so that associations, promoters, sponsors and players alike may work in conjunction to advance the game.
For more info on ABP go visit www.abp-players.com or email abppropool@gmail.com

My first reaction to this post is to inform all these players that THERE IS NO MEN'S PRO POOL TOUR! I'm sorry to be the bearer of this bad news, but sometimes reality sucks. What there is (at least in this country) are FOURTEEN events this year with a minimum of $25,000 in added money, making 2011 the best year for professional pool in the United States in well over ten years! I don't think ANY of the ABP players will attend all fourteen of these tournaments, and only a handful (Shane, Rodney and a couple of others) will attend more than ten of them. In addition there are another five or six International tournaments with substantial prize money. Only a handful of the very best ABP pros attend the majority of these events as well.

Does that make this a pro pool tour? NO, it does not. These are all independently promoted and organized events, with the only cohesiveness being a willingness between promoters to respect each others dates. Only the Seminole Tribe was responsible for multiple events this year, and they may be gone next year, reducing the number down to ten or less. So the bad news for the ABP is there is no Pro Pool Tour to regulate, just a group of independent promoters. Until such time as the ABP has the wherewithal to organize and produce (see the PGA and the ATP tours) their own events, they are in no position to dictate to the promoters, who take all the risk to produce these professional tournaments. The old saying, "He who has the gold makes the rules," applies here.

All that said, I think that they have made many excellent recommendations, which should be considered carefully by all the independent pool promoters. Seeding of top players is not necessarily a bad thing. No matter how you slice it, a player will have to beat some of the best players to do well in a major tournament. Where the ABP may encounter resistance is in their stipulations for the "rules." I doubt that many of the independent pool promoters will agree to having THEIR events played under these rules. So good luck with this is all I have to say. All promoters know that filling the fields and the stands is paramount!

Two things could happen here. The ABP may back down on their rule stipulations, and seek to work with the existing promoters. Or they can draw a line in the sand and boycott future events. In the latter scenario, I would expect to see either fewer tournaments or fields of lesser players. And that's a lose-lose for everyone!

Even though no one asked me, I would suggest once again to the principles of the ABP that they sit down in a meeting with the major pool promoters and try to work out a formula that benefits everyone. Arbitrarily laying down terms for all promoters to abide by is a recipe for disaster.

That's my two cents for whatever it's worth. :wave:

 

[Mark Griffin]

Seeding

For the past 10 to 12 years the us open 9 ball has been seeded. I dont understand what all the fuss is about. Another question i got if allison or karen corr play how would they be seeded in the event or any other top women pros playing in the open.

This statement is basically incorrect.

As I understand (and I might be wrong) but The US Open does a seperation of players - not really a seeding. If 10 players come from Russia, they will be spread out to avoid playing each other in the first round or two.

Also, all the past champions, who never show up, are seeded, and their opponent usually gets a bye.

I am sure there is some kind of seeding by current standards, but it is strictly an 'informal' system - because there is no system that takes into account the different rankings. (BCA points - WPA - etc).

So enough of the US Open seeds argument. It really does not seed in a coherent manner - because there is no list available.

US open tries but they are handicapped by the fact that US players don't play that much in World events, and WPA players don't play in many BCA point events. Merging the lists is all guess work.

Mark Griffin

 

[chelseagrinder]

This is a good start

:embarrassed2:Men's pool has suffered long and hard over many decades. These rules for sanctioning an ABP event are reasonable. Why wouldn't we want professionals to have to call each shot and don't count a lucky sinking of the nine on the break. Seeding is also reasonable for the top 16 only - their dedication and commitment should yield something for these players. What is really needed is for the ABP to get their own sponsors to add monies to what the event promoter is adding. More money and even better players will come out to compete. :smile:

 

[JAM]

All together now: Chorus!

 

[Holly]

Question about the ABT homepage

Why is there an uncredited photo of York Hall on the homepage of the ABT website (see the bottom of their initial post). This image on their site implies that the ABT has some organizational relationship with events at this venue, which I feel comfortable saying they do not.

There is such a thing as intellectual property right protection for photographers and producers of events. Maybe they should use photos of their board of directors on the front page instead?

 

[JAM]

... Maybe they should use photos of their board of directors on the front page instead?

So true. Actually, the ABP's board of director(s) can be quite photogenic. :smile:

 

[Johnnyt]

You hardly heard much *****ing about seeding open tournaments a dozen years ago and before. Low tier pros and armatures knew it was good for the top pros and in the end it was good for the promoter to fill the stands the last day or day’s of the tournament because most of the name/top pros were still in. As a armature if I wanted to play a top pro it wouldn’t be putting in a $300-$500 tournament entry fee and probably costing another two times that for travel, hotel, food, and lost wages or vacation time to go two or three and out. I would simply go to the nearest room that pros are in action and make a game with one of them. Maybe two $250 sets of race to 10 getting enough lead that if I played a bit over my head and the pro played under his usual game I had a chance to cash.

Also, this is another time. Lower players have been banging their heads up against a wall in seeded events for a long time. At some point most will stop banging their heads and find out the head feels much better. The economy also plays into this now also. I believe seeding will go away on it’s own as more dead money players wake up to the fact they have little chance of cashing at seeded open tournaments and stop entering them. Then what? They can’t fill a 64 player $25,000 tournament now, and it is only going to get worse if seeding continues. Johnnyt

 

[Mark Griffin]

ABP press release

Maybe this should be kept on the front page until SOMEONE comes on here to explain.

Or maybe it IS just another press release.

mark Griffin

 

[joelpope]

Maybe this should be kept on the front page until SOMEONE comes on here to explain.

Or maybe it IS just another press release.

mark Griffin

Mark,

Your prejudice is showing....

Predictably consistent on bashing ABP regardless of specific issues

 

[joelpope]

My first reaction to this post is to inform all these players that THERE IS NO MEN'S PRO POOL TOUR! I'm sorry to be the bearer of this bad news, but sometimes reality sucks. What there is (at least in this country) are FOURTEEN events this year with a minimum of $25,000 in added money, making 2011 the best year for professional pool in the United States in well over ten years! I don't think ANY of the ABP players will attend all fourteen of these tournaments, and only a handful (Shane, Rodney and a couple of others) will attend more than ten of them. In addition there are another five or six International tournaments with substantial prize money. Only a handful of the very best ABP pros attend the majority of these events as well.

Does that make this a pro pool tour? NO, it does not. These are all independently promoted and organized events, with the only cohesiveness being a willingness between promoters to respect each others dates. Only the Seminole Tribe was responsible for multiple events this year, and they may be gone next year, reducing the number down to ten or less. So the bad news for the ABP is there is no Pro Pool Tour to regulate, just a group of independent promoters. Until such time as the ABP has the wherewithal to organize and produce (see the PGA and the ATP tours) their own events, they are in no position to dictate to the promoters, who take all the risk to produce these professional tournaments. The old saying, "He who has the gold makes the rules," applies here.

All that said, I think that they have made many excellent recommendations, which should be considered carefully by all the independent pool promoters. Seeding of top players is not necessarily a bad thing. No matter how you slice it, a player will have to beat some of the best players to do well in a major tournament. Where the ABP may encounter resistance is in their stipulations for the "rules." I doubt that many of the independent pool promoters will agree to having THEIR events played under these rules. So good luck with this is all I have to say. All promoters know that filling the fields and the stands is paramount!

Two things could happen here. The ABP may back down on their rule stipulations, and seek to work with the existing promoters. Or they can draw a line in the sand and boycott future events. In the latter scenario, I would expect to see either fewer tournaments or fields of lesser players. And that's a lose-lose for everyone!

Even though no one asked me, I would suggest once again to the principles of the ABP that they sit down in a meeting with the major pool promoters and try to work out a formula that benefits everyone. Arbitrarily laying down terms for all promoters to abide by is a recipe for disaster.

That's my two cents for whatever it's worth. :wave:

that's some good 2 cents worth!

 

[Island Drive]

Mark,

Your prejudice is showing....

Predictably consistent on bashing ABP regardless of specific issues

Possibly, but if it looks and walks like a duck.........................

 

[Mark Griffin]

ABP press release

Mark,

Your prejudice is showing....

Predictably consistent on bashing ABP regardless of specific issues

Joel,
I will probably agree with you. I get real passionate about pool - and I put my money, my mouth, and all of my energies to trying to make pool in the US better.

But it is absolutely absurd to put out a statement like ABP did - and not explain anything! They basically put out a challenge that they will not participate in any promoters event unless we seed, use ABP points and otherwise agree.

Last year, at our US Open 10ball, many of these same ABP players had a secret meeting and took a vote on whether to boycott my event. This was done 2 hours before the event started and was after the draw had been done. Seeding had NEVER even been mentioned in the previous 8 months since we announced the event. You might remember their formation meeting took place at our event. That is how 'they' started. WOW.

Yes I get vocal - and I wish a few other people would chime in here. This is the UPA all over again. I will not play that game. I can not understand everyone's apathy when announcements come from 'nowhere' and no one takes credit. Its like dealing with terrorists.

As always, I am willing to talk to any knowledgable person on the issues.
702-719-7665 office 702-835-2000 cell. I will not talk to anyone who will not identify themselves.

Mark Griffin

 

[sjm]

Even though no one asked me, I would suggest once again to the principles of the ABP that they sit down in a meeting with the major pool promoters and try to work out a formula that benefits everyone. Arbitrarily laying down terms for all promoters to abide by is a recipe for disaster.

Agreed to a point, Jay. However, I think it's unfair to to call the guidelines arrived at by ABP arbitrary. They are NOT AT ALL arbitrary. The problem is that they are also not the result of a collaborative process between the ABP and those who would likely be called upon to live by these guidlelines.

It is easily deduced that ABP has foregone a collaborative approach to establishing their guidelines because it won't get them what they want. They've done little to hide their fear of, sometimes even contempt for, promoters, even those with a history of prompt payment of prize fund money.

I agree with ABP's stance that they should be assured of prompt payment of prize money, but the dictatorial manner in which they've set about ensuring it is fundamentally disrespectful to both current and future business partners.

If pool were thriving and revenue from competition for event producers were growing, the players would have a strong hand to play, and might be in a position to strong-arm promoters as proposed in their guidelines. These tactics are very effective when profits are on the upswing. But pool is not thriving, and only a few pool entrpreneurs remain. One of them, the Seminole Tribe, is about to walk away.

Seems to me that ABP is overplaying its hand here. I wish them every success in securing a better future for pool professionals, but hope they'll open their eyes and recognize that there are many cogs in the wheel we call professional pool, and that unless those cogs turn together, the future will be full of problems.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Yes I get vocal - and I wish a few other people would chime in here. This is the UPA all over again. I will not play that game. I can not understand everyone's apathy when announcements come from 'nowhere' and no one takes credit. Its like dealing with terrorists.

Mark,
Quite a few people have chimed in on this thread and on the other U.S. Open boycott thread.

One benefit to the ABP of having threads like this one is that the ABP gets immediate feedback on what other people think. I do think that the opinions we express are being read by the ABP players and their board of directors, as well as by various promoters and sponsors and pool-playing fans. Given enough time and vocal outrage, the ABP will be forced to reconsider and adjust their positions.

 

[justadub]

Mark,
Quite a few people have chimed in on this thread and on the other U.S. Open boycott thread.

One benefit to the ABP of having threads like this one is that the ABP gets immediate feedback on what other people think. I do think that the opinions we express are being read by the ABP players and their board of directors, as well as by various promoters and sponsors and pool-playing fans. Given enough time and vocal outrage, the ABP will be forced to reconsider and adjust their positions.

If this is indeed true (and I think it is) then Mark's suggestion of keeping this on the front page is quite valid.

 

[The Renfro]

I am not sure the opinions of AZ are going to steer the course of the ABP... Take the seeding for instance... I would bet most of the people saying they wouldn't play in a seeded event still wouldn't play if it was unseeded and may have never played in anything higher than a local $30 entry event.....

My vote shouldn't mean much either... I play the Music City but so far the economy and logistics has kept me from playing in anything over $100 entry... I favor seeding but the feedback needs to come from the players that show up to the $25k+ added events

 

[JCIN]

Your post.

This post reminded me so much of this scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJnno3sDao&feature=related

It was all good right up to the terrorist thing...LOL. I had a mental picture of a deck of cards with the CSI logo on one side and the ABP board guys pictures on the other and almost pissed myself laughing.

For some reason that really cracked me up. Probably the whole lack of normal sleep thing. Anywho.....for anyone who thinks Mark is prejudiced here imagine doing all the things required to hold events like the US Open 10 Ball and US Open One Pocket only to see random ambiguous press releases from an organization (that claims membership of just about every pro player walking vertical) telling the world all the stuff required for events they are going to "sanction" and not a whole lot else. Then just disappearing back into the ether.

Doing these events are hard as hell as it is and maybe dealing with a boycott threat or maybe not, then not getting any solid answer one way or another about what a vague press release actually means could easily put a guy on tilt regarding doing all the work required to pay out $25K added plus expenses for running an event. Especially if its the same guy who came out of pocket five figures to pay pro's who got stiffed in the last UPA sanctioned event even though he had absolutely no connection to the event at all.

It just baffles me how no one from the ABP has been back here to say ANYTHING.

Edit: I just checked the ABP account and sure enough.....last activity was right after the OP in this thread. Basically just posted it and never logged back in. This whole thing is getting Twilight Zoneish.