Is Charlie Williams the most powerful man in pro-pool?

Concur

JCIN said:
Seeing as how I can't sleep I might as well write my manifesto on the who's who of pool promoters in the US (because I don't care about the rest of the world. Merica. Insert pic of bald eagle with machine guns here)

Barry Behrman is on his last legs. He had a great run but it is what it is. Allen Hopkins deserves a lot of respect for the expo but he does one pro event a year and it now pays two dimes more than TAR does for a weekend challenge match in part thanks to Charlie Williams. I suppose an honorable mention could be given to Matt Braun for his ESPN events but those have wained considerably in the recent years.

Barry Hearn won't touch pool in the US with a ten foot poll. Once a year he needs a tv cast and that doesnt pay what it used to. Although the fact that they chose not to rely on BCA points this year, thereby making them completely meaningless does make a good point for arguing he has some power in the US.

Charlie has burned through most sponsors/donors/partners that he did large events with. He is doing stuff in pool rooms now every once in awhile when he finds a little money and the occasional tv deal in asia for whoever is in his clique at the time. When he's not helping get $25K added events turned into $8K added events. To his credit he managed to resurrect the 14.1 thing but I attribute that as much to Mr. Fedak (sp?) who puts up the dough. Also Cindy Lee has been making Charlie look good for a lot of years behind the scenes.

Pat Fleming is in the Hall of Fame for a reason. A case could be made that what he did with Accu-Stats is a big reason pro pool is around in the US right now. Don't believe me go find a pro player, fan or promoter under forty who says Pats videos haven't inspired them or fed their desire for the game. IMO its a way bigger deal than most people consider or give credit for. But...Pat doesn't actually produce that many events himself. Its not a knock. He does one or two a year not counting small stuff and not every year. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Pat but again it is what it is when it comes to putting on events.

This brings us to Larry Chiborak who single handedly has caused more promoters and players headaches than anyone since Trudeau. Most of those headaches are related to simple lack of communication about scheduling...and the seeming inability to hire a plumber,electrician and dry wall guy. If you put a lot of weight on being able to shake things up from the norm then Chiborak is right at the top of the list. He also has paid out more for guys to show up and do nothing than Charlie has paid out in the last couple years. So he has that going for him. If/when Bonus Ball actually starts then he will have a lot of players tied to him so for the near future in the US. Chiborak is right at the top of people who will have a real affect on pro pool in the US. Whether it is good or bad remains to be seen.

So with all of the above said consider this.....

If Mark Griffin decides to go back to Alaska to ride grizzly bears or whatever they do up there, Mike Zuglan decides he has had enough and Greg Sullivan decides to move to the UK and build the worlds best dart boards then you can pretty much throw the last shovel full of dirt on pro pool in the United States.

Three dudes. Who without them pro pool in the US is gone. Those three men are responsible for eight "pro events" (another oxymoron) a year. I wouldnt call it power. I would call it "I hope those guys don't take up golf or get hit by a bus."

So I now give you my final ranking list of people who make things happen that affect the most players and fans in the pro pool industry. It is based solely on my opinion which obviously means its 100% correct.

8657863266_52141fcb5b_o.jpg


I know I will take shit for my number one spot but I didn't put Mark there because he's my friend and business partner. Look at the entirety of what CSI does in the US with and for pro pool and I think its a legit call. I do love to argue though so lets hear it.

While the above list is put together with some thought and reasoning behind it I it meant mainly as way to stir up some discussion...if someone wants to really know who the most powerful person in pro pool in the US is I will tell you. It's the fans. Sounds hokey right? Its true though. The guy who goes to Derby every year and buys a TV seat. The people who just paid $300 to sponsor the Accu-Stats event. The people who buy all of the online PPV's from TAR, BigTruck and Accu-Stats. The people who always buy a seat to sweat the pro's at any tournament they are at. Without the people willing to put up with all the bullshit surrounding pro pool and still support it by spending money then anything a promoter does is meaningless.
Click to expand...

_______________________________________________


Justin has been active from all ends of this spectrum-
his most potent statement being- it starts and ends with the fans!
well said Justin....
 
nathandumoulin said:
Yes, I outright admit that I am to produce the BB season, and my crew has taken over almost every aspect of the league since Barry was let go. As such I clearly have a bias. However that bias comes from honestly believing that this is the best game out there. Period.
Click to expand...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion if they are being paid or not. Regardless, of what you think it's very obvious what the players think. I've come across a majority of the BB players and I've yet to see them play it when they're not being paid to play it. If it were such a great game, I would see them matching up... but instead they play 1pocket or 10ball.

I get the concept of the game... seems like a mix of snooker and straight pool (two of the most boring games IMO). Oh, just not my cup of tea.
 
cleary said:
I've come across a majority of the BB players and I've yet to see them play it when they're not being paid to play it. If it were such a great game, I would see them matching up... but instead they play 1pocket or 10ball.
Click to expand...

If you had to make a living playing pool and the next event coming up was 10 ball, would you spend your time practicing Bank Pool? Of course not. You'd practice 10 Ball or a game that's very similar. The same thing applies to Bonus Ball.

What I find amusing is that one second the naysayers are screaming "the players only do it to get paid", and in the next breath "$1000 a week? the players aren't getting paid enough to make it worth their while!". It's one or the other, and can't be both.

Either the players are getting rich and hate the game, or they love it enough to make sacrifices to support the game for a year. Make up your minds.
 
Unfortunately there isn't.

If there was a "most powerful person in pool" then there might be some leadership and direction. Unfortunately, that just doesn't exist.

There isn't even a " most powerful governing body" that can implement rules of play, table specifications, or any other level of consistent guidelines.

Charlie is a big fish in a small pond as is Griffin, Hearn, Zuglan and any other notable promoter out there. They are all good at what they do but they are playing to small audiences. Until pool has a demographic that attracts sponsors it will continue to be a shadow business. The disconnect between the large numbers that play for fun and play in leagues with the pros pretty much takes the economic incentive away from any big sponsors for a pro tour. The TOTAL of all payouts of ALL of the pool pro events for 2012 are less than what the first place finisher of a PGA Major event earns. And, the annual cost of travel for EACH pro is not too different considering the potential returns. How does that work?

People are passionate about pool, lots of people play pool, but to date, there is no way to make serious money promoting pool so it remains a cottage industry that supports a handful of promoters. But so far, it cannot break through to the Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, Metropolitan Life, Schwab, T D Waterhouse, Wells Fargo, Bank of America level of sponsors that annually dump millions upon millions of dollars into sports with demographics aligned with their client base.

If you want to know why pool isn't mainstream.... Look in the mirror. Vote with your wallet when you get a chance and let the sponsors know their investment had an impact.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JAM
joelpope said:
... The TOTAL of all payouts of ALL of the pool pro events for 2012 are less than what the last place finisher of a PGA Major event earns. ...
Click to expand...

As written, that's way wrong. Perhaps you meant "first" instead of "last."
 
joelpope said:
If there was a "most powerful person in pool" then there might be some leadership and direction. Unfortunately, that just doesn't exist.

There isn't even a " most powerful governing body" that can implement rules of play, table specifications, or any other level of consistent guidelines.

Charlie is a big fish in a small pond as is Griffin, Hearn, Zuglan and any other notable promoter out there. They are all good at what they do but they are playing to small audiences. Until pool has a demographic that attracts sponsors it will continue to be a shadow business. The disconnect between the large numbers that play for fun and play in leagues with the pros pretty much takes the economic incentive away from any big sponsors for a pro tour. The TOTAL of all payouts of ALL of the pool pro events for 2012 are less than what the first place finisher of a PGA Major event earns. And, the annual cost of travel for EACH pro is not too different considering the potential returns. How does that work?

People are passionate about pool, lots of people play pool, but to date, there is no way to make serious money promoting pool so it remains a cottage industry that supports a handful of promoters. But so far, it cannot break through to the Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, Metropolitan Life, Schwab, T D Waterhouse, Wells Fargo, Bank of America level of sponsors that annually dump millions upon millions of dollars into sports with demographics aligned with their client base.

If you want to know why pool isn't mainstream.... Look in the mirror. Vote with your wallet when you get a chance and let the sponsors know their investment had an impact.
Click to expand...

Everything in that post was true. The obvious question to follow would be how do get the major sponsors that have the serious money interested in investing it in pool, and since we've debated that issue for years and no big company has yet to come to the aid of this sport, do you just simply say enough with the trying to promote the game to a national audience..admit to ourselves that from now on professional pool will basically never hit even the non live, taped ESPN 2 level (4:00 am repeat) from a finals match somewhere that took place a month ago and hope in the future the few promoters willing to stream content continue to do so..accept it and call it a day?
 
nathandumoulin said:
If you had to make a living playing pool and the next event coming up was 10 ball, would you spend your time practicing Bank Pool? Of course not. You'd practice 10 Ball or a game that's very similar. The same thing applies to Bonus Ball.

What I find amusing is that one second the naysayers are screaming "the players only do it to get paid", and in the next breath "$1000 a week? the players aren't getting paid enough to make it worth their while!". It's one or the other, and can't be both.

Either the players are getting rich and hate the game, or they love it enough to make sacrifices to support the game for a year. Make up your minds.
Click to expand...

"MILLION DOLLAR PRIZE FUND !!!!!!"

"Well.....the individual player makes $900-$1000 a week when he actually plays, has to uproot his life, either move to Vegas for six months or fly two or three times a month.Then if all goes well and he wins it he can make $60K total for a six month commitment. One statement sounds a lot cooler than the other. If you dont understand how it doesnt sound all that amazing when you see the fine print I can understand. Your job is to sell the dream. It is decent money if someone is willing to move to Vegas but its far from the gold rush some make it out to be. All of the above naturally assumes the money is actually going to be there of course.

End of the day its on the players. If they want to roll the dice more power to them.

How about answering old Crazy Barry's question once and for all just to get it out of the way...Does Chiborak have the million bucks for the prize fund ? If so why doesnt he prove it and ease everyone's mind ? Not like he can't know everyone is going to ask. All the stuff leading up to now can be written off as people who just dont know what they are doing but no harm no foul. Starting out the season on the come without the prize money would be a different story.

You should put Chiborak in a headlock and make him hire a PR firm. Then write some kind of cool script that blocks AZ from every Bonus Ball staff members computer so they can quit digging the hole. Coming on here and saying "No one knows what we are doing so all this speculation is ridiculous." might be true but its also about the worst thing you can do. If you guys are not gonna say anything then don't say anything. If you are going to interact dont pick and choose your spots. Put out some damn information. I think you should start with where that million bucks is.
 
Last edited:
Palmerfan said:
Everything in that post was true. The obvious question to follow would be how do get the major sponsors that have the serious money interested in investing it in pool, and since we've debated that issue for years and no big company has yet to come to the aid of this sport, do you just simply say enough with the trying to promote the game to a national audience..admit to ourselves that from now on professional pool will basically never hit even the non live, taped ESPN 2 level (4:00 am repeat) from a finals match somewhere that took place a month ago and hope in the future the few promoters willing to stream content continue to do so..accept it and call it a day?
Click to expand...

Pool is not mainstream because to people who do not play it ranks right below watching cars rust on the "What do I want to watch in tv tonight" list.
 
JCIN said:
Pool is not mainstream because to people who do not play it ranks right below watching cars rust on the "What do I want to watch in tv tonight" list.
Click to expand...

This is very true, sadly.

That said, Willie Mosconi vs. Minnesota Fats was a hit on ESPN due to their rivalry and verbal banter. People tuned in because they wanted to see Willie get pissed and hear what Fats was saying. People watched pool during this era, and I attribute it to these guys.

The missing ingredient in pool today is emotion. If pool can capture the emotional aspect, it would sell on TV. Professional pool needs a personality, and in 2013, there is none. Well, if there is a personality, most people don't know who or what pool is in mainstream America.
 
no "reinventing the wheel," it's just doing the same thing that's been successful

Palmerfan said:
Everything in that post was true. The obvious question to follow would be how do get the major sponsors that have the serious money interested in investing it in pool, and since we've debated that issue for years and no big company has yet to come to the aid of this sport, do you just simply say enough with the trying to promote the game to a national audience..admit to ourselves that from now on professional pool will basically never hit even the non live, taped ESPN 2 level (4:00 am repeat) from a finals match somewhere that took place a month ago and hope in the future the few promoters willing to stream content continue to do so..accept it and call it a day?
Click to expand...

Nobody's going to come in a "rescue pool," that's not how it works in any business venture. To raise capital you have to develop comprehensive business plans with detailed Private Placement Memorandums to raise money from accredited investors. Professional marketing, advertising and management teams will be utilized, and a public offering will be rolled into a 3 year action plan.

This is how it's been done before, and this is how it will be done again, not only in pool, but in energy, communication and high tech businesses. The world is changing and pool is simply lagging behind for a few obvious reasons. Someone will take advantage of this incredible business opportunity, it's just a matter of time as soon as the business plan is created and presented to the correct TV Representatives.

This hasn't been done, and that is the plain and simple truth why pool's not on ESPN. It's not because people like or don't like pool, ESPN is only interested in selling air time, they don't care if it's Baseball, Football, Pocket Billiards, Volleyball, or MMA. They deal in profit and loss, just like any other business.

Pool will be a marketing vehicle, that's not the question, that's the answer.

Professional pool is a huge opportunity right now, and someone with the knowledge and experience will develop it very soon. The one thing that would speed up the process is competition, so if several people did it at the same time it would be the best scenario. We estimate the gross of a marketing vehicle, no matter what the sport or game is worth a minimum of 100 Million. No one cares if it's Pool, MMA, Poker, Sand Volleyball, or Miniature Golf, it's all about viewing impressions and to do this it will take characters and personalities.

All games are the same when it comes to excitement levels, it's mostly just a ball being thrown or hit around a court, field, diamond, or people fighting in a ring. The whole key is NOT the rules, game, or equipment used, it's always going to based on character development, and that was the key to the success after the movies 'The Color of Money' and 'The Hustler'......those characters were awesome, and Minnisota Fats seized the opportunity and became a house hold name.

This is not "reinventing the wheel," it's just doing the same thing that's been successful in the past. Someone's going to do it, and I'd say in the next 8 months, and I predict it won't be anyone we've ever heard of before. 'Their Business will be our Teacher'
 
Last edited:
JAM said:
This is very true, sadly.

That said, Willie Mosconi vs. Minnesota Fats was a hit on ESPN due to their rivalry and verbal banter. People tuned in because they wanted to see Willie get pissed and hear what Fats was saying. People watched pool during this era, and I attribute it to these guys.

The missing ingredient in pool today is emotion. If pool can capture the emotional aspect, it would sell on TV. Professional pool needs a personality, and in 2013, there is none. Well, if there is a personality, most people don't know who or what pool is in mainstream America.
Click to expand...


I have to slightly disagree. I think the Willie v Fats thing was, on it's face, a legitimate rivalry. King of the legit pool world vs king of the hustlers. It also had the movie "The Hustler" going for it as a bit of heritage and people were intrigued about the guy who was supposed to be the "real" Minnesota Fats. That Willie got steamed and Fats talked like WC Fields was just icing on the cake.

Lou Figueroa
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top