They seem to be living.
Pro Pool players courting disaster
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
They seem to be living.
I appreciate the events put on by the top promoters in pool and all the hard work, time and money spent on them. We get sentimental thinking about all the years of top notch pool we enjoyed from these events but we all know the pro players are not able to make a living in them except a handful.
I do not have the answer to solving pools problem of supporting the top guys but Bonus Ball is the best chance I have seen come along where people are actually putting serious money into pool and taking a chance. It is obvious what has been being done for the past however many years is not working so logic dictates trying something new and different to achieve success.
If it does not work the people who really lose are the investors, the players made some money and will go back to doing what they were doing before it and the promoters will continue to have events and make money, one year should not make or break an event. I actually think the turnout in Vegas for US Open 10 Ball and 1 Pocket will be very good since the players will be in town and I do believe there will be free players during those times. Promoters could contact Bonus Ball for the available player list for their events because those players will most likely attend since they are not working.
All this talk about barring players from tournaments because they were not loyal to the promoters who cannot support them is kind of ridiculous really. Basically saying if you do not play in my event this year then do not show up next year if Bonus Ball does not work out is very petty.
If you work a job and it does not pay the bills then you need to find another job and if the opportunity to make money and support yourself comes up then go for it. Who in their right mind is going to turn it down and sit around broke. If I have a choice to play a match for $1000 or spend $1000 in the hopes to win a few thousand and actually having to beat a bunch of my peers then I am taking the sure money.
The players are being paid to work and have a job instead of gambling to make a living which essentially is what the tournament trail is. The players are very happy to have the opportunity to have some stability, if you see a Bonus Ball player then just ask him what he thinks to get an opinion from someone who actually matters.
I look at what TAR is doing with the exhibition matches as opposed to the gambling matches, the good thing now is both players are making some money. The old model with action matches did not work just like this old model with pro pool is not working either. I find it ironic how Justin dogged exhibition matches in the past and now is doing them but change is not always a bad thing.
I do not have the answer to solving pools problem of supporting the top guys but Bonus Ball is the best chance I have seen come along where people are actually putting serious money into pool and taking a chance. It is obvious what has been being done for the past however many years is not working so logic dictates trying something new and different to achieve success.
If it does not work the people who really lose are the investors, the players made some money and will go back to doing what they were doing before it and the promoters will continue to have events and make money, one year should not make or break an event. I actually think the turnout in Vegas for US Open 10 Ball and 1 Pocket will be very good since the players will be in town and I do believe there will be free players during those times. Promoters could contact Bonus Ball for the available player list for their events because those players will most likely attend since they are not working.
All this talk about barring players from tournaments because they were not loyal to the promoters who cannot support them is kind of ridiculous really. Basically saying if you do not play in my event this year then do not show up next year if Bonus Ball does not work out is very petty.
If you work a job and it does not pay the bills then you need to find another job and if the opportunity to make money and support yourself comes up then go for it. Who in their right mind is going to turn it down and sit around broke. If I have a choice to play a match for $1000 or spend $1000 in the hopes to win a few thousand and actually having to beat a bunch of my peers then I am taking the sure money.
The players are being paid to work and have a job instead of gambling to make a living which essentially is what the tournament trail is. The players are very happy to have the opportunity to have some stability, if you see a Bonus Ball player then just ask him what he thinks to get an opinion from someone who actually matters.
I look at what TAR is doing with the exhibition matches as opposed to the gambling matches, the good thing now is both players are making some money. The old model with action matches did not work just like this old model with pro pool is not working either. I find it ironic how Justin dogged exhibition matches in the past and now is doing them but change is not always a bad thing.
I don't really care what they do as long as my local pool room stays open.
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I am very sad that we all can't get along!!!
Jay Helfert has very eloquently and passionately given the players some GOOD advise. What they do with it is up to them! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!
The players need to make the EFFORT to work this out. I have not heard ONE pro player offer up solutions to the double booking problem. No one has offered to play bonus ball twice in one week in exchange for the week off! No one has offered to play bonus ball the week prior and record it! No one has offered to sign confidentiality clause not to disclose the winner of the delayed broadcast if that is an issue. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY!!!
The burden is on the Pro Players to seek out these concessions and offer something of substance in exchange. Lets face it, as good as Mark and Greg have been to the players they are obligated to bend over backwards to make this work out.
As fans I would BOYCOTT the bonus ball broadcast the weeks of the conflicting tournaments if they will not support the players right to earn a living by attending these events!
The UPA and Johnny needs to step up on this ISSUE! He needs to think outside the box and make some concrete suggestions. The players need to sell Bonus Ball on the benefits of them attending these tournaments. The international coverage it will obtain the cross marketing and exposure of the Bonus Ball product and brand.
The players could have an agreement to wear an approved bonus ball shirt and logo with the Bonus ball website on the back like www.alexpagulayan.com has on his appearances.
Johnny or Charlie or Brandon Shuff needs to step up and inquire what the nature of the Bonus Ball's objections to player attendance??? Once the players know the Bonus Ball's reasons for concern or objectives??? Then they can make the appropriate concessions to alleviate those concerns.
Until the Pro Players step up the promoters and fans will be in limbo waiting for them to grow some Balls!!!
KD
Jay Helfert has very eloquently and passionately given the players some GOOD advise. What they do with it is up to them! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!
The players need to make the EFFORT to work this out. I have not heard ONE pro player offer up solutions to the double booking problem. No one has offered to play bonus ball twice in one week in exchange for the week off! No one has offered to play bonus ball the week prior and record it! No one has offered to sign confidentiality clause not to disclose the winner of the delayed broadcast if that is an issue. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY!!!
The burden is on the Pro Players to seek out these concessions and offer something of substance in exchange. Lets face it, as good as Mark and Greg have been to the players they are obligated to bend over backwards to make this work out.
As fans I would BOYCOTT the bonus ball broadcast the weeks of the conflicting tournaments if they will not support the players right to earn a living by attending these events!
The UPA and Johnny needs to step up on this ISSUE! He needs to think outside the box and make some concrete suggestions. The players need to sell Bonus Ball on the benefits of them attending these tournaments. The international coverage it will obtain the cross marketing and exposure of the Bonus Ball product and brand.
The players could have an agreement to wear an approved bonus ball shirt and logo with the Bonus ball website on the back like www.alexpagulayan.com has on his appearances.
Johnny or Charlie or Brandon Shuff needs to step up and inquire what the nature of the Bonus Ball's objections to player attendance??? Once the players know the Bonus Ball's reasons for concern or objectives??? Then they can make the appropriate concessions to alleviate those concerns.
Until the Pro Players step up the promoters and fans will be in limbo waiting for them to grow some Balls!!!
KD
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I believe that in a perfect world the Bonus Ball guys would work with the current promoters and try to come up with a solution that benefits everyone. Pool dollors are limited and it seems like competition would be a negative since they are fighting over such a small piece of pie.
The issue I have is that Bonus Ball seems a little short sided in their philosophy. The model they have is dependent on viewership, meaning amateur players paying to watch BB. However, for two weeks in July, the majority of their viewership will be in Vegas participating in the BCAPL. Why would you run a PPV when thousands of your potential viewers will be unable to watch?
It seems that working around the current crop of events would be better for their bottom line. I know during the Ultimate 10 ball, Southern Classic, and the US Open events there will be streaming from accu-stats and TAR. I may give Bonus Ball a try to see it, but if I am faced with a choice between spending my money to watch the games I play, or giving something else a "chance", my money is going to Accu-stats and TAR.
I anticipate that by not working with the current guys who have proven to add to pool, the BB guys are not only hurting the current promoters but are also shooting themselves in the foot.
The issue I have is that Bonus Ball seems a little short sided in their philosophy. The model they have is dependent on viewership, meaning amateur players paying to watch BB. However, for two weeks in July, the majority of their viewership will be in Vegas participating in the BCAPL. Why would you run a PPV when thousands of your potential viewers will be unable to watch?
It seems that working around the current crop of events would be better for their bottom line. I know during the Ultimate 10 ball, Southern Classic, and the US Open events there will be streaming from accu-stats and TAR. I may give Bonus Ball a try to see it, but if I am faced with a choice between spending my money to watch the games I play, or giving something else a "chance", my money is going to Accu-stats and TAR.
I anticipate that by not working with the current guys who have proven to add to pool, the BB guys are not only hurting the current promoters but are also shooting themselves in the foot.
Back years ago I thought the sport was coming along well and there would be a pro tour coming with it--not as high paying as golf but there would be a tour that would support the players enough to make a good living--with times as they are now and most of the rooms gone the way of the dinosaur's,,the players need somthing even more now--hope it works out for the best is all one can hope for.
Jay,,a question--when RJ Reynolds was sued--was it because of the Strickland Runnout?
Jay,,a question--when RJ Reynolds was sued--was it because of the Strickland Runnout?
From what I heard in an interview (don't remember who it was), the lawsuit was because RJ Reynolds was going to cut out the existing owners/promoters and start their own tour without them. Is that not correct?
As long as tournaments continue to be top heavy with the payout, there will never be a pro tour. Why does the winner of every tournament get so much of the pie?
The pieces of pie need to be more even so people don't have to be so hungry all the time.
As long as tournaments continue to be top heavy, nothing will change. You'll have a few making a good living and the rest will be on welfare as usual.
The pieces of pie need to be more even so people don't have to be so hungry all the time.
As long as tournaments continue to be top heavy, nothing will change. You'll have a few making a good living and the rest will be on welfare as usual.
Is it?
Barry Bremner was the most vocal rep for Bonus Ball for a long time. He has said he doesnt know if the money is there and has told players that. Evidently he has been fired/excommunicated/forced out now so maybe he's saying that out of spite.
End of the day Bonus Ball is the same old story of "Trust me."
I don't blame players for taking a shot at it. I also won't have much sympathy if it blows up in their faces as I haven't seen too many asking questions about the financial viability of it. Everyone makes their decisions and does the best they can. Without a solid pro tour I think its unreasonable for current promoters to expect much loyalty from players. I know I don't expect any.
If current promoters want a commitment from players it will require a commitment and communication from them. By that I mean forming a formal tour with points, rankings and guaranteed prize funds. I think its doable but it hasn't happened yet so we are where we have always been: The Wild West of every man for himself. Can't fault the players for doing something they think may pay and you cant fault traditional promoters if they decide they are tired of the game.
My opinion on Bonus Ball is there is no possible way to self sustain under the announced financial commitment. This means unless there is substantial sponsor income yet to be disclosed it will not survive long and everything will be where it was before like nothing happened. Investors are not going to keep feeding the beast, PPV has been said to be a "silly model" and I don't see TV revenue coming to save the day. There are rumors of some kind of legal wagering but that is flawed on so many levels its not really worth discussing.
While there may be a grand plan being kept under wraps and I have no doubt it will look pretty at the end of the day someone has to say "I want to pay money for that." or it dies. I think it will happen sooner rather than later so the disruption to traditional events will be minimized.
Also people saying Bonus Ball will be good for pool are incorrect IMO. Bonus Ball will be good for Bonus Ball if it works which is as it should be.
Well Johnny and Charlie are way better off than Brandon is or many of the others they are representing its easy for them to live thru some of their stupid decisions
But a guy like Brandon or Mike Davis both of whom we know have been struggling for yrs
They can hardly support themselves never mind thinking about having a family
That steady pay check from BB offers a security that they never have had. Maybe then they won't have to hunt down weekly 20 dollar turnys just to keep food on their plate
1
This is spot on. I looked at the Seminole Tour and it folded, they have an endless supply of money but obviously it just did not work for them. Maybe a big corporation could come along and buy pro pool for promotional purposes of a product. The numbers might not be there for pool on TV in the US but worldwide it is much bigger in other places.
Lenny I realize you are on the money train so I dont really hold that against you. You are just keeping the sucker happy like a good hustler does. However if you want to put my name in the mix then we can call a spade a spade.
I do have a problem with exhibition matches that promote some fake prize fund or just have the players chop the prize fund. Like Bonus Ball did with their six man event years back where all six guys decided to chop the money before the event started because no one knew the rules and the promoter was cool with it.
When I switched from action matches to the current format it was simply copying the same model the UFC, boxing, and numerous other sports employ. The winner gets more than the loser. Meaning they are playing for something. I realize $1500-$2000 difference is nothing to a baller like you but in my experience players will play hard for that amount.
I have tried to keep personal shit out of this Bonus Ball cluster but if you want to take it there we can.
Tank,
You mean just like IPT? Give me a break, there is no guarantee.
There is plenty of blame, but as Jay mentioned pool players can be their own worse enemy.
Ill never forgive or forget Earl putting the final nail in the coffin at Romines.
Ken
it's so simple
Not to seem completely naive, but it sure seems like the new guy in town should figure out a way to work around the established tournaments, which have required substantial and irrevocable investments to reserve space, get tables, and so on... where BB is in its own facility, with a relatively few players involved, and who, if they were asked and gave an honest reply, would likely say that they'd like to play in ALL of the events.
So the simple answer seems to be that BB works around the already existing schedule this year, and assuming it takes off as claimed, works to schedule its events with the other promoters for the years to follow.
And beyond the common sense of that approach, the new guys should realize that seeing the pros at big tournaments attended by amateurs just might gin up some interest in seeing those same pros, who you saw and met and had a beer with in Tunica, on a stream on a regular basis. But anyone who looks at the hard reality of streaming pool and sees that getting 5000 people to pay to watch at one time is Jcin or big truck's dream, might find some benefit in making sure the pros are seen more, and not less, and by not forcing the players to chose when it's all a matter of choice on the promoters part to begin with. After all, wasn't BB supposed to start 6 months ago? So how hard would it be to schedule its events to coordinate instead of conflict with existing established events?
Attention nose, you are in grave danger of being cut off to spite face. This is the only warning you will receive....
just saying....it's really so simple....
Not to seem completely naive, but it sure seems like the new guy in town should figure out a way to work around the established tournaments, which have required substantial and irrevocable investments to reserve space, get tables, and so on... where BB is in its own facility, with a relatively few players involved, and who, if they were asked and gave an honest reply, would likely say that they'd like to play in ALL of the events.
So the simple answer seems to be that BB works around the already existing schedule this year, and assuming it takes off as claimed, works to schedule its events with the other promoters for the years to follow.
And beyond the common sense of that approach, the new guys should realize that seeing the pros at big tournaments attended by amateurs just might gin up some interest in seeing those same pros, who you saw and met and had a beer with in Tunica, on a stream on a regular basis. But anyone who looks at the hard reality of streaming pool and sees that getting 5000 people to pay to watch at one time is Jcin or big truck's dream, might find some benefit in making sure the pros are seen more, and not less, and by not forcing the players to chose when it's all a matter of choice on the promoters part to begin with. After all, wasn't BB supposed to start 6 months ago? So how hard would it be to schedule its events to coordinate instead of conflict with existing established events?
Attention nose, you are in grave danger of being cut off to spite face. This is the only warning you will receive....
just saying....it's really so simple....
JCIN,
Can they redeem their points for teddy bears?
Just bustin your balls. Your post is kinda how i see it, its the wild wild west for the players. its a shot at something cause there aint much else going on.(no knock on Greg or Mark or anyone)
Another thing that I know (cause i did it for 19 years) is living in Vegas and somewhere else isn't possible on $4,000/month when you add in air plane tickets. I did the LA/Vegas commute for 19 years I kept a apt at both ends at a minimum, houses at both ends at the most, and even in 93 when i had a roommate in Vegas and 2 roommates in LA it was tough action and Gas was $1/gal back then. the players who stay in Vegas will be fine to travel to other tourneys or play in one of your matches, but thats just the top guys.
Its expensive to live in 2 spots, so what will happen is there will be a fall-out of players who cant stand living in Vegas (or cant because they have habit's-you know what i mean cause you live there, as you know cause you live there some people cant live in vegas period) So whats going to happen is there will be a big shake out of players, i'd guess over 50% wont make it past the first season, which means that 2nd tier players will play BB that can live in Vegas and be happy with what BB is paying. Which is ok, there is no chance BB will corner the market on talent and stars in the pool world.
I wont name names but there are a few top players who cant live in Vegas because they have habits that will take them over, they will miss matches. Vegas has that effect. Like I said 1000X Atlanta or Dallas was the correct location for BB.
best
eric
PS: happy for your POD, or what ever its called, the on demand system
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Jerry Forsyth
Well-known member
Jay,,a question--when RJ Reynolds was sued--was it because of the Strickland Runnout?[/QUOTE]
I can answer this one. No. The Strickland/Deuel encounter was at Romines Billiards and was after the Camel Tour had gone off of TV because of the tobacco ad court ruling. The lawsuit came about because RJR and the PBT could not agree on contractual issues and when Camel began its own tour (The Camel Pro Series) without the help of the PBT then the PBT sued RJR and won.
And the Strickland 11-rack runnout was on the PCA Tour at Champs in Dallas, Texas. Had nothing to do with the Camel Tour or Camel Pro Series or the PBT.
-Jerry
I can answer this one. No. The Strickland/Deuel encounter was at Romines Billiards and was after the Camel Tour had gone off of TV because of the tobacco ad court ruling. The lawsuit came about because RJR and the PBT could not agree on contractual issues and when Camel began its own tour (The Camel Pro Series) without the help of the PBT then the PBT sued RJR and won.
And the Strickland 11-rack runnout was on the PCA Tour at Champs in Dallas, Texas. Had nothing to do with the Camel Tour or Camel Pro Series or the PBT.
-Jerry
That's new to me and wouldn't be a big shocker for sure! That'll add a whole new twist to see what happens. I was told the players were getting paid throughout the delay of building and problems. The pro players were "salaried" of sorts was my understanding. At any rate, with as little pool related stuff going around the US, everyone should collaborate with each other to assure they are all working together. But then again, why make it easy?
JCIN,
Can they redeem their points for teddy bears?
Just bustin your balls. Your post is kinda how i see it, its the wild wild west for the players. its a shot at something cause there aint much else going on.(no knock on Greg or Mark or anyone)
Another thing that I know (cause i did it for 19 years) is living in Vegas and somewhere else isn't possible on $4,000/month when you add in air plane tickets. I did the LA/Vegas commute for 19 years I kept a apt at both ends at a minimum, houses at both ends at the most, and even in 93 when i had a roommate in Vegas and 2 roommates in LA it was tough action and Gas was $1/gal back then. the players who stay in Vegas will be fine to travel to other tourneys or play in one of your matches, but thats just the top guys.
Its expensive to live in 2 spots, so what will happen is there will be a fall-out of players who cant stand living in Vegas (or cant because they have habit's-you know what i mean cause you live there, soe people cant live in vegas period) So whats going to happen is there will be a big shake out of players, i'd guess over 50% wont make it past the first season, which means that 2nd tier players will play BB that can live in Vegas and be happy with what BB is paying. Which is ok, there is no chance BB will corner the market on talent and stars in the pool world.
I wont name names but there are a few top players who cant live in Vegas because they have habits that will take them over, they will miss matches. Vegas has that effect. Like I said 1000X Atlanta or Dallas was the correct location for BB.
best
eric
PS: happy for your POD, or what ever its called, the on demand system
I agree 100% with the Vegas factor. Its something I dont think many people who have not seen it first hand understand completely. For Bonus ball to succeed they don't really need all of the top guys. The people they will need to sell it to in order to survive have no idea at all who is good and who isn't. If it survives they can pretty much make their own stars out of the guys who are able to do whats needed for a show like that.
The money in Bonus Ball is great for guys who don't consistently finish in top of big events. Its not so great for the guys who do but it appears to be steady which draws them. Like I said I don't fault any of them for taking a shot. Its their decision to make so more power to them.
I can answer this one. No. The Strickland/Deuel encounter was at Romines Billiards and was after the Camel Tour had gone off of TV because of the tobacco ad court ruling. The lawsuit came about because RJR and the PBT could not agree on contractual issues and when Camel began its own tour (The Camel Pro Series) without the help of the PBT then the PBT sued RJR and won.
And the Strickland 11-rack runnout was on the PCA Tour at Champs in Dallas, Texas. Had nothing to do with the Camel Tour or Camel Pro Series or the PBT.
-Jerry[/QUOTE]
CJ can talk about the Earl thing, it was his tour. It's not my thing to talk about. Jerry is 100% correct. Earl did what nobody thought could be done, and it was the first event. He is a true champion, he fired in the $1,000,000 ball like it was a hanger(and it wasn't, didnt even slow down for it-amazing). That always impressed me-that one shot, wow. Thats all I'll say.
See my reply to Jason. As for the IPT...well, that's all you really have to say about that!
I agree with you about the worst enemy part. As for Earl and Romines, how did that put the nail in the coffin?