The first nits were picked by the post I responded to who decided to sound all smart on his idea of what the "last decade" meant "to him" and how that made the person he was responding to wrong.
ABP/US Open - So what is the next move??
- Thread starter pro9dg
- Start date
The first nits were picked by the post I responded to who decided to sound all smart on his idea of what the "last decade" meant "to him" and how that made the person he was responding to wrong.
Deck Aids
Something all Sailors do Not want in their life....
Something all Sailors do Not want in their life....
Cheers jam, you did the best job of clearing it up I think... I don't feel like a 5 year old trying to understand calculus anymore.
So basically - charlie says "The US Open is an official APB-sanctioned pool tournament, and they'll decide rankings using APB points" ...the WPA won't play along with any other american sanctioning body so they'll withdraw their sanction... as a direct result of this, pool players from other countries will have to pay airfare, hotel, etc. out of pocket, vs. their government paying it.
So, more noobie questions, I'm hoping you'll take a second...
1. It's pretty clear accepting APB sanctioning has a big disadvantage. Would there be any advantage to accepting it? Or is it pretty much a no-brainer?
2. Could it be argued the WPA should just play nice and allow other bodies to co-sanction the event? Then everyone gets their travelling money? What would be the downside if the WPA just basically ignored the APB's press release, and continued to sanction the US open?
3. I guess anyone can just say "I sanction this" and it's kind of meaningless. The US open is an officially sanctioned CreeDo tournament and you'll get CreeDo points for playing in it.
But the part about using APB points to seed...
Does that just mean the points are used (along with other data like BCA rankings) to make a more informed decision about which players are the best? Or is there some deeper relationship implied if the US open uses this info to seed? Does the WPA dislike it when APB or BCA rankings are used to determine seeding, or do they not care so much about how it's seeded, as the fact that another group claimed to sanction the event?
4. Does seeding matter that much? I've heard a pro complain that seeding is really important because it gives some players a free ride to the money while others have the deck stacked against them. I guess the law of averages says if you have to beat 10 worldbeaters to reach the money, it certainly is a tougher task than if you have to beat 6 of them. But doesn't the cream rise to the top anyway? Or do people feel like the races are short enough that even the best players can get knocked out early?
Actually this post by, Pro9dg, clears it up.
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Just tidying up your post Jen.
Any country which is affilliated to the WPA (through their national association) can apply locally to their country's Olympic funds. Even though pool is not an Olympic sport, this money is still available.
The best examples are the Netherlands where 4 players are paid a little above the Dutch national wage. The also pay a coach who (deservedly) earns a lot more than their wages. Qatar has an Olympic Committee
that funds the World 9 Ball. China weighs in with bonuses for their players who win overseas events.
So the incentive is there for them to travel to a US Open that is WPA Sanctioned..
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On this I think people will argue forever, I have no response here except to say I think that seeding will be far more fair in the future when the WPA and BCA lists get better, as at this time their lists are insufficient. It's a very hard thing to do, as you have players playing in all sorts of tournaments all over the world and a lot of our players don't travel over seas and of their players the same so it's hard to compare apples to apples fairly. With fairly be the key word here, that's why you want to leave CW points and CW out of the mix.
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These are answers to the best of my knowledge if I have stated anything incorrectly please point this out, thank you.
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Just tidying up your post Jen.
Any country which is affilliated to the WPA (through their national association) can apply locally to their country's Olympic funds. Even though pool is not an Olympic sport, this money is still available.
The best examples are the Netherlands where 4 players are paid a little above the Dutch national wage. The also pay a coach who (deservedly) earns a lot more than their wages. Qatar has an Olympic Committee
that funds the World 9 Ball. China weighs in with bonuses for their players who win overseas events.
So the incentive is there for them to travel to a US Open that is WPA Sanctioned..
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On this I think people will argue forever, I have no response here except to say I think that seeding will be far more fair in the future when the WPA and BCA lists get better, as at this time their lists are insufficient. It's a very hard thing to do, as you have players playing in all sorts of tournaments all over the world and a lot of our players don't travel over seas and of their players the same so it's hard to compare apples to apples fairly. With fairly be the key word here, that's why you want to leave CW points and CW out of the mix.
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These are answers to the best of my knowledge if I have stated anything incorrectly please point this out, thank you.
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Mark...Could it be because JA is the "poster boy" for Bonus Ball (and thus sees a nice paycheck in his future)? The ABP has no future, and is, in effect, a disjointed, non-functioning entity.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
He sees a decent paycheck from bonus ball right now but if he sees nice paychecks in his future he's seeing something that isn't readily apparent quite yet.
..........................
Regarding the WPA sanctioning, besides providing funds for foreign players to make the trip, the sanctioning also protects the dates of the tournament so nothing else WPA related will be scheduled against it. This also helps ensure foreign players will show up as well as not having a significant event to compete against for players and spectators.
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It's who the "they" is that matters. The vision of The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind when it comes to the administration of the ABP at this juncture. :grin-square:
Creedo said:
Barry Behrman would have to ignore the ABP in order for the WPA to sanction. If Barry Behrman accepts ABP to make up the rules for Barry's tournament, then the writing on the wall is that this will end American pool's prominence on a global scale. Barry needs to stand tall and ban all ABP players this year. I'd rather see a U.S. Open with Barry's rules and less attendees than a U.S. Open with Charlie William's rules while all others suffer because of the favoritism that will occur of the ABP gets its way.
Credo said:
Do you remember the WPA, et al., becoming upset when Charlie Williams called his Dragon 14.1 tournament a "world" tournament? What is happening is CW is taking advantage of a segmented pool industry in the United States. Somebody needs to put a stop to it. Nobody has stepped up to the plate to do so -- yet. :wink:
If people who are not happy with the ABP, Charlie Williams, and Dragon voice their concerns to industry sponsors in writing, the sponsors just might withdraw their funding for the Charlie Williams machine. This is the only thing that will work to stop the ABP plague that is cast upon American pool this time.
Creedo said:
For the WPA, it's all about marching a beat to the same drummer. They don't want to share the authority with a peon group like the ABP. The WPA is supposed to be the organization that determines world ranking. Of course, to an American, it doesn't matter much. Our BCA doesn't do squat for America, Canada, or any other North American entity.
Creedo said:
To the pro player, getting a seed is an advantage in several ways. One, they are nearly guaranteed they won't have to play another strong player, though a few do slip in that aren't seeded. As well, if the tournament doesn't fill up, these seeded players get byes. The end result is they can get a bye and play a cream-puff and get in the money rounds, no problem.
Seeding is unfair in today's American pool world. The ABP didn't strong-arm Mike Zuglan's Joss Tourning Stone event. Barry Behrman should stand up tall and not let the ABP dictate a damn thing to him, either.
Screw the ABP pros attending this year's 2012 U.S. Open. Let them sit on the sidelines and scratch their heads, wondering why in the world did I follow Charlie Williams like a trained little pig and miss out.
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So all the amateurs, who seem to constitute the majority of the field, are going to take it in shorts with seeding. And, looking at the ABP press release, it appears that those seeded players will also be allowed to arrive a day later to the Open so they have travel more time from a Louisiana event.
"Behrman is also cooperating with the ABP on match scheduling as all the ABP players in the ABP sanctioned Championship Cloth Pro Classic October 16th-21st will be given a one day grace period to travel in time and play on Monday October 22nd. This only applies to players who will already have paid their US Open entry fee of course.
Once again, players coming from ABP Louisiana events will be given October 21st Sunday as a travel day to the US Open 9-Ball Championship."
What a crock.
Lou Figueroa
What would REALLY be interesting is if Barry does stand up to CW.....and then we see which "ABP Pro's" agree to miss the tournament. And which ones cross the line, knowing there would be fewer strong players to compete against...
That would be fascinating to watch play out.
That would be fascinating to watch play out.
It makes my blood boil. :angry::angry::angry:
Why should all the other schmucks have to be at the so-called "mandatory players meeting," incur all the extra expenses of lodging/food for 2 to 3 extra days, and then have to play world-beaters from the gate? It ain't fair.
This is why Mike Zuglan got out of professional pool a long time ago. You know, he used to be a strong straight pool player, but when he went to events like the U.S. Open and had to be there the very first day with all the other schmucks and the tournament promoters let others come a day or two later, shoot at noon instead of early morning for their matches, give them free entry fee for showing up, Mike Zuglan was fed up with it and thereafter, with the help of Joss cues guy, started the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, which has been in existence, I think, 15 or 16 years now.
It is the most successful regional tour, maybe the longest running, that is still going strong. And you want to know why? Because Mike Zuglan won't let the ABP or anybody else tell him how to run his tour. What a shame that Barry Behrman can't do the same. :frown:
Mike Zuglan doesn't exercise favoritism, either. If Efren Reyes shows up 2 minutes late at the table for his match, after the 10-minute grace period, Efren Reyes is forfeited. No ifs, ands, or buts. Maybe it's because Mike is a player himself. He understands what the schmucks feel like. And make no mistake about it, he can still shoot a mean stick. :wink:
Attachments
Well, let's take a vote. Stand by.
This is only because CW's scheduled his event to conflict with Barry's U.S. Open. CW also tried to call his 14.1 tournament which has been going for only I forget 7 or 8 years, the longest running tournament in America because he doesn't like the fact that Barry's U.S. Open has been running so much longer than his tournament. Probably another reason he'd like to get Barry so upset he just gives up. I hope Barry tells the ABP to stay home, seems everyone is getting real tired of their crap.
I think if Barry says to the ABP just stay home, CW will say go ahead and play to all ABP members because he doesn't want to look not in control when they start jumping ship and play anyway. It would be very interesting in deed if CW tries to tell his ABP members not to play.
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who are they?
who are ABP "members?"... SVB is listed and on a TAR podcast he said he is not... names are being used but "what is a member?"... do they pay membership fees in order to benefit from all the "good" work of the ABP?
Does the ABP pay them so that they can use there name?
I am having printed several "ABP S*cks" T-shirts... so that I can take my VIP pass and sit in the Accu-stats area during any and all member matches..
should be fun...
who are ABP "members?"... SVB is listed and on a TAR podcast he said he is not... names are being used but "what is a member?"... do they pay membership fees in order to benefit from all the "good" work of the ABP?
Does the ABP pay them so that they can use there name?
I am having printed several "ABP S*cks" T-shirts... so that I can take my VIP pass and sit in the Accu-stats area during any and all member matches..
should be fun...
I'm trying really hard to not be negative about all this -:frown:
I think it would be helpful in the long run to give these ABP members a "way out" of the precarious pickle they have found themselves in, before things get more sideways than they already are. In other words, I don't blame them for forming an association, or for wanting to be a part of something larger than themselves...
...but -paycheck or not - knowingly aligning yourself with people who are clearly not well-respected in your industry is nothing short of career suicide. Its a form of "selling out" really. And it probably happened because they felt like they had no other choice. That or the dangling carrot was just too tempting to resist.
To the members of the ABP: Make us all proud and get as far away from the controversy as you can. I recommend a new association, represented by pro players only. This will eliminate any potential conflicts of interest with promoters and tourny organizers. Concentrate on being pro players only, and stay out of the promotions business altogether.
To the BCA: Its pretty disapointing that you cant organize and represent the professional players in the U.S. - placing them in a position to have to represent themselves, or work with self-serving promoters.
To CSI: I'd call up Mr. Archer and offer to help him form a new association.
To Barry: Do the 'right' thing and make us proud. rinse and repeat.
I think it would be helpful in the long run to give these ABP members a "way out" of the precarious pickle they have found themselves in, before things get more sideways than they already are. In other words, I don't blame them for forming an association, or for wanting to be a part of something larger than themselves...
...but -paycheck or not - knowingly aligning yourself with people who are clearly not well-respected in your industry is nothing short of career suicide. Its a form of "selling out" really. And it probably happened because they felt like they had no other choice. That or the dangling carrot was just too tempting to resist.
To the members of the ABP: Make us all proud and get as far away from the controversy as you can. I recommend a new association, represented by pro players only. This will eliminate any potential conflicts of interest with promoters and tourny organizers. Concentrate on being pro players only, and stay out of the promotions business altogether.
To the BCA: Its pretty disapointing that you cant organize and represent the professional players in the U.S. - placing them in a position to have to represent themselves, or work with self-serving promoters.
To CSI: I'd call up Mr. Archer and offer to help him form a new association.
To Barry: Do the 'right' thing and make us proud. rinse and repeat.
TAP, TAP, TAP! :clapping::clapping::clapping:
when will they realize that charlie wants all 'their' food in front of him?
Charlie knows his environment and uses it to his advantage. What I mean by that is the vast majority of players he claims to have under the ABP umbrella have no clue what is going on and do not really care what is going on. They don't follow the politics and very few pay attention to what goes on here.
Charlie knows this so it gives him the ability to make the ABP look more substantial than it is by claiming to have all these guys under roof. This is all really just a mouse fart in the wind. At the end of the day there are MAYBE six or eight players that would actually cross the street to do ANYTHING for the ABP. Thats being generous.
The U.S. Open is changing venues this year, the economy is is in the dumper making it an even bigger question of if fans will spend the money to travel for the event and here comes the ABP throwing a last minute curveball when the event could be vulnerable. It is a cheap shot.
Waiting for other people to put up all the money and do all the work then trying to blackmail them with veiled threats of witholding players has become a standard M.O. for Charlie and his various alphabet soup cover organizations. His major weapon is the "For the good of the players" and "We all need to come together" arguments. Its all complete and utter bullsh!t. He only tries this crap with people who won't immediately tell him to get lost.
The answer for Barry is to simply do what Zuglan and Griffin do... say "This is the event. Here is the prize fund. This is the seeding (if any). Pay your entry and play or don't."
I am really curious to see if the ABP tries anything with Bonus Ball. It is a tailor made situation for the Charlie tactics. Lots of money invested up front and a reliance on a small number of pro players. I dont think anything will happen at first but I KNOW if it is a success the wheels will start turning in Florida.
Poetic Justice, now that I think about it...
Since the WPA wont sanction events for anything other than non-profit associations, I dont think you have to worry about Mr. W 'taking over' anything anytime soon. There's too much cash to snatch to worry about silly details like federal tax law.
Since the WPA wont sanction events for anything other than non-profit associations, I dont think you have to worry about Mr. W 'taking over' anything anytime soon. There's too much cash to snatch to worry about silly details like federal tax law.