I agree I like Sigel here too!
Archer v. Sigel: Who do you like?
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
I agree I like Sigel here too!
Has SIgel's game declined in all facets or is there is specific facet that is responsible for him not being able to play at his former level?
Mike Sigel
Although Johnny has to be a prohibitive favorite due to his continuing to play in tournaments and his younger age you still can't count Mike out.
I got to spend quite a bit of time with Mike while he was house pro at Champion Billiards. Mike is an extremely proud man and if he agreed to this match I can guarantee you he is practicing and will be ready. He may not win but he will not disappoint.
Wedge
Although Johnny has to be a prohibitive favorite due to his continuing to play in tournaments and his younger age you still can't count Mike out.
I got to spend quite a bit of time with Mike while he was house pro at Champion Billiards. Mike is an extremely proud man and if he agreed to this match I can guarantee you he is practicing and will be ready. He may not win but he will not disappoint.
Wedge
When I see statements like this, I wonder how many people on here watched Archer play in the early 90's, or the ones who did, if they remember how Archer played back then.
I honestly believe that Johnny and Earl are two of the biggest reasons that Sigel retired in the first place. He knew he wasn't going to win any more 9 ball tournaments, at a minimum.. And he saw 14.1 was going out of style.
The Archer you see now pales in comparison to the Archer of the early-mid 90's. He was an absolute BEAST back then. This is the guy who put a thirteen pack on Bustamente, remember?
There was NOBODY outside of the Filipinos that was even a slight favorite over Johnny in 9 ball. Sigel won his 9 ball tournaments against players that were not nearly as strong in 9 ball as Johnny and Earl.
There was good reason for this, of course, as 9 ball was not really the tournament game of that time period. Sigel came up when tournaments were split between 14.1 and 9 ball, with the status leaning towards 14.1. He was simply the first guy to recognize that having a big, fairly controlled break was mandatory. Even then, Sigel's break was not as powerful OR controlled as Archer's.
Even an Archer who is getting a bit long in the tooth is WAY too much for Sigel at this point in his career, and that would be if Sigel had been competing regularly.. Being out of tournament shape? I'd expect Johnny to be at least a 4 game favorite in a race to 11, and that is actually giving a lot of credit to Sigel.. Great shortstops who kill their regional tours still get beat 11-4, 11-5 in tournaments by SVB/Archer, etc..
Short Bus Russ - Internet C Player Extraordinaire
Sigel was winning tournaments that included Earl, Efren, Rempe, Varner, Buddy, Mizerak, Hopkins and other great players. You seem to give Mike no credit for being one of the greatest all around players to ever pick up a cue!!! IMHO
Wedge
Yes... a what? 20 year old Earl? A 40-something year old Rempe who preferred 14.1?
Mizerak? I repeat, a 14.1 player, on predominantly slow cloth.
Hopkins? I repeat, a 14.1 player on predominantly slow cloth.
Buddy? Yes, a great player who got out when he was supposed to. Just like everyone all the way down to strong shortstop level does these days.
Efren? Yes, an Efren who was still learning how to win in American 9 ball tournaments. Efren dogged off multiple 9 ball semi-finals and finals at the end of Sigel's career.
Varner and Buddy were the only true competition that Sigel had in the last few years before he retired. Varner had as good a break as Mike, and his safety play was equal to Mike's as well. Buddy's break was not as good, but he got out EVERY time he was supposed to, so that allowed him to compete.
Around this time, the pockets got tighter and the cloth got slicker. I am not saying Sigel wasn't one of the all time best. I am saying he competed at 9 ball in a time period where it was just starting to become the main tournament, AND it was on vastly different equipment, to boot.
Mike Sigel hasn't competed regularly in years.. For that reason, his learning curve is just way too steep to compete with a modern world class player. Period.
He'll do modestly well against Archer..
Maybe.
He would get totally, utterly destroyed by any of the current top 5 Filipinos who grew up playing on modern equipment, or who have steadily competed recently.
Hell, I don't even think Mike stands a chance against a current Efren, although it would be closer than with Archer.
Short Bus Russ - Internet C Player pundit
You still haven't said who you like in this match.
Russ... I love you, but I'd own your 401k if you really believe this. Hopkins... a good 14.1 player only on nap cloth? Archer was never the all arpund play that Hopkins was....or is for that matter. Sorry.
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What odds can I get for a washed up geriatric Sigel?
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Nice assesment Johnny T !
He isn't in fighting form, ga-Ron-teed.
First saw them play each other in New York City in the late summer of 1992 at a charity event to support leukemia. A few nights later, Mike would run his legendary 150 and out against Zuglan.
Also in attendance that evening at Rusty's (the restaurant bearing the name of popular baseball player Rusty Staub) were Jerry Orbach, Nick Varner and Loree Jon Jones. The 23 year old Archer was too much for Sigel that night, and I think he'll be too much for Mike again.
Also in attendance that evening at Rusty's (the restaurant bearing the name of popular baseball player Rusty Staub) were Jerry Orbach, Nick Varner and Loree Jon Jones. The 23 year old Archer was too much for Sigel that night, and I think he'll be too much for Mike again.
Well then, wonder no more about me. I've followed all the pro tournaments since the mid-80's.
Johnny did play great in the early 90's, including in this hill-hill loss to a then 41-year-old Mike Sigel in the 1993 U.S. Open:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfz7rpVBVjQ
Hmmm…and yet a quick review of the biggest tournaments covered by Accu-Stats in 1986-1987 shows Sigel going 4-0 against Strickland, and 10-2 against the likes of Efren, Jose, Buddy, and Nick.
I think you need to check your history. Sigel was one of the winningest 9-ball tournament players ever. I suspect his record in the finals is unequaled.
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I think Johnny has the home court advantage, but Sigel is too much ego to roll over and play dead on a field of tournament blue. I don't believe Mike would put himself in a position to look bad.
When you've won as many tournaments as Mike and hit hundreds of thousands of balls, I think Mike can still get there.
It's that home team court advantage that is the stickler in this match-up.
Also, if there is a neutral racker, that will make a HUGE difference. If the players rack their own, I definitely like Johnny.
When you've won as many tournaments as Mike and hit hundreds of thousands of balls, I think Mike can still get there.
It's that home team court advantage that is the stickler in this match-up.
Also, if there is a neutral racker, that will make a HUGE difference. If the players rack their own, I definitely like Johnny.
I agree. I like Archer over Mike. I just don't think Mike has the ability or desire anymore.
As far as Archer and straight pool, I remember back in 1992, J.R. Calvert was Archer's coach after the Akron open to get him ready for The Cleveland Open the following week. (Johnny had never played straight pool before!) He was playing Nick Varner for $20/game and J.R. was coaching. When Johnny got the tournament, He lost and went all the way through the losers bracket and played Nick for the championship. Nick had 3 balls and Johnny had 1. They played a couple of safe's apiece back and forth.....then Johnny ran 149 and out! He continued on and ran up towards 239 balls before they made him quit so they could continue the tournament.
I think Archer is very capable of playing straight pool.
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You know that mike thinks he plays well enough that he can beat any soul at any time...and that is true abut 99/100 people.
Johnny is in that 1/100 though, and the set we are discussing is pure pr, ..so reality is not a factor?
Mike Sigel can run 200 balls playing Straight Pool any day.
You may have a point, although Johnny plays all games well - Mike Sigel can run 200 balls playing Straight Pool any day....even if he's not been playing....same with Allen Hopkins.
I've played Sigel several tournament matches through the years - he rarely makes any errors......position OR ball pocketing.
You may have a point, although Johnny plays all games well - Mike Sigel can run 200 balls playing Straight Pool any day....even if he's not been playing....same with Allen Hopkins.
I've played Sigel several tournament matches through the years - he rarely makes any errors......position OR ball pocketing.