be honest, who really uses center ball ?

[Island Drive]

Sweet Pea...mother time and consistency beat me up and forced me to work it "in the middle" I know U figured it out before I. It's quite amazing when U have a 70 degree cut just off the rail and you use center ball draw, and the more draw you use (without english) the more the ball comes up table, so why use spin & interject squirt when its not needed? When playing conditions (cloth/dirt/humidity) are out of hand its easy to loose your way when your spinning whitey. I've always felt in 9-ball, that Buddy in his prime would way outlast Efren, because Effie uses so much more spin, I'm not saying tho who is better. The more variables you introduce into each shot, the greater the percentage of making an error in the long run. For those that have never tried center ball draw/drill shots on a thin cut off the rail, too come up table, ty it...your results will be a huge surprise.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have played middle ball all my career. It is the fastest way to a win that is available. It is the easiest to gage and it will make the dog in us easier to control. I won all my tournaments by the middle ball game and will win more with it. Once you understand it it will be your friend all your life. Middle ball does it all.

Mike,
Surely you're not saying you never potted with english? So how rarely did you find yourself having to use it?

And do you think players like Efren and Pagulayan would benefit by playing less english?

Colin

 

[Scott Lee]

Damn right, and I stand behind it too! Simple draw is MUCH easier, and more accurate (for this shot situation), than adding a bunch of sidespin. Going VERY slightly rail first is what creates the angle necessary, for position on the 9ball.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I wish I could say that....



Actually, Scott Lee added that remark. I don't want to take credit that i don't deserve...

 

[skins]

Did I hit a nerve there?

There are many top players that would use spin on all their shots... even on a straight shot on the 9ball... what ever works for a minority of players will not work for the majority of players.
I'm sure you would have use much less spin if you had a snooker background or just played on a very tight pockets table. The common pool table with its 5 inches corner pocket will be quite forgiving but still most amateurs (like the majority of this forum members) will have hard times with pocketing balls while using spin.

Center ball hit is a must if you want to move the cue ball along the tangent line which is the fundamental of position play.

hit a nerve? no not at all just wanted to let you know there are some good players out here that use center ball less than you'd think they should. many use center for alignment ( as i do ) but then use some sort of english to minimize the accidental use of it.

as for the tables i used to practice with centennial balls on a 12 foot snooker table and my practice table is a triple shimmed GCIII and very little issues......

 

[march11934]

So Cannonball, You asked how much we use center ball, but I didn't see you mention how much you use it yourself?

 

[Jaden]

well....

Hitting the center of the cb still has It's use, however with higher lv play, your placement of the cb becomes very important, and how often do you need the cb to stay when it hits the ob(not very I bet)?

PS. There are times where It's still useful, and is important to learn even today.

I'm not one to talk because I rarely use no spin, I'm always either trying to kill the CB off the rail or slow down the CB and speed up the OB so I can hit the ball firmer to get the same results or something; however, if you use center ball and speed control, you can put that ball almost anywhere on the table on any given shot by leaving yourself the correct angle on the shot. If you focus on speed control and center ball, you reduce the chances of being off and it can help you to improve consistency.

I wasn't in San Diego when the gentle giant was, but I was talking with Tom Wallace and he told me that when Swannee was asked the secret to his playing so well, he replied "Find center ball".

Jaden.

 

[mullyman]

One thing I'd like to point out is that no one here is saying that center ball should never be used. The point is that the better you get the more you use spin and move away from using center ball so much. Someone was talking about being jacked up against the rail. Jesus, give people some credit for God's sake. Of course there are situations where center ball is the definite way to go, I don't think I've seen anyone argue that point. Again, point being that as you get better you use more spin.
MULLY
and FWIW, my main game is straight pool so I've learned to stay in the middle as much as I can

 

[Aaron_S]

Great discussion, everybody.

As important as it is for a nine-ball player to understand the various combinations of english, and what effect they have on the CB and OB, I think it is equally important for them to understand where center-ball is, and where the CB will go if stuck center-ball. I agree that it's hard to "see" center-ball, but the way I look at it is that center-ball is wherever I need to hit the cueball in order to make it follow a line very near the tangent line on a short cut shot using a firm stroke. Consider this shot, for example:

CueTable Help

Certainly, the 9-ball can be pocketed with any combination of spin you want to use, and many people probably would use some sort of spin. Not all that many years ago, I would have probably used a slow stroke with low-right english on this shot, attempting to draw it into the rail just short of the 9-ball, and spin into it. Nowadays, though, I will shoot this shot with a firmer stroke and within 1/8 to 1/4 tip from center on the CB, because I have found it to be far more consistent for me. As we all know, the low-right shot plays a little differently on brand new 860 than it does on two-year-old 860, but the near-center-ball shot is virtually the same because it doesn't deviate much from the tangent line. What's not to like about following the tangent line whenever it's possible and prudent? I find it to be especially useful when playing breakouts, caroms, and close position. As for myself, I know that I began to get out more often once I moved closer to the center.

As always, JMHO,

Aaron

 

[rackmsuckr]

I use center ball (high, low or center) only about 25% of the time. I know, it should be more, but other than when I use the shaft method of aiming or the natural path of follow or draw is going to get me where I need to be, or I want to stun with an angle on the shot and come straight across, then that is when I use center.

Even if there is a slight angle on the ball, many times I will use english to make it a stop shot, and vice-versa.

Many times, I need to narrow or widen out the path, not just for position, but to avoid a scratch or for caroms, and that is where english comes in. I almost always give a little skootch of outside to everything. Even on natural banks, do I rarely not use english and adjust with the speed.

Also, for whomever talked about only 1 tangent line, yes, there is one natural tangent line FOR CENTER CENTER BALL, but it is affected by draw, follow, force of hit, and side spin, because you are hitting it at a different point on the ball and letting the english throw it toward the pocket (or compensating for throw).

Also, remember when pocketing balls, that the contact point, even using center ball, can vary a lot, depending upon how close it is to the pocket, so that will affect which way the tangent line goes as well. In other words, if you have an object ball near the side pocket and you aim to hit the inside of the pocket at its extreme left, then again for the extreme right of the pocket, you could have a contact AREA that is actually about 3" (which is why a lot of beginners take 'hangers' for granted and hit it any old where with any old speed and do not maintain position control) to a shot close to a rail with a lot of green where there is very little margin of error.

Even if I do hit that hanger at precisely the same contact point every time, my tangent line would be affected if I hit it with hard draw or soft follow or anything in-between. Hope everyone can understand what I just said, lol.

So back to the original question, I do use center ball but agree with Colin that the more weapons in your arsenal, the greater success you will have when you need them. :wink:

 

[DJKeys]

I use center ball on about 60% of my shots. That of course includes draw, follow and stun. I think the stun concept is very important to learn, the path the cueball takes off the object ball with a center ball hit at medium speed. All of those angles change slightly when you hit the cueball off its center axis, so I believe that it is crucial to understand this.

 

[Island Drive]

I use center ball on about 60% of my shots. That of course includes draw, follow and stun. I think the stun concept is very important to learn, the path the cueball takes off the object ball with a center ball hit at medium speed. All of those angles change slightly when you hit the cueball off its center axis, so I believe that it is crucial to understand this.

DJ your point is right on, but it gave me a thought to take it one step further. To learn this game properly, one needs to know what the cue ball and the object ball will do cueing whitey along the vertical 12-6 spectrum FIRST, this is the foundation of pocketing. One must understand what the shots will do, before one tells the shots what to do with spin. All shots off the vertcal plane become more difficult, more complex and increase ones percentages of making mistakes. For example, a vertical masse' is the most difficult, so in turn a leveled out cueing position for the shooter is the easiest.

 

[Pushout]

I've always used as little english as possible. And still do. The basis of my 9 ball game is center, with low and high, {ie: draw and follow}. That's the way I was taught. I agree with Mike Gulyassy. I think that 9 ball today influences way too much the way people approach pool today. And I still think that speed of stroke is not stressed anywhere near enough today as it once was. I still believe in using only just enough english only when absolutely necessary.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I think everyone needs to be able to hit dead center, when the shot is called for.

 

[Zoltor]

I'm not one to talk because I rarely use no spin, I'm always either trying to kill the CB off the rail or slow down the CB and speed up the OB so I can hit the ball firmer to get the same results or something; however, if you use center ball and speed control, you can put that ball almost anywhere on the table on any given shot by leaving yourself the correct angle on the shot. If you focus on speed control and center ball, you reduce the chances of being off and it can help you to improve consistency.

I wasn't in San Diego when the gentle giant was, but I was talking with Tom Wallace and he told me that when Swannee was asked the secret to his playing so well, he replied "Find center ball".

Jaden.

Yea, I actually have used that method before, it works great.

Note: In the context of this thread, center ball, means dead center(not high/low).

Now to the case of English(aka left/right), as you basically pointed out, is not needed in normal billiads play, becuase as long as you allow your self some angles on your shots, you can prett much do anything with the cb(as long as you don't suck with speed control anyway lol).

PS. English is really only a must in trick shots(trick shot tournies). I've seen alot of proes scratch, just becuase they added english when there was no need to.

 

[rackmsuckr]

Yea, I actually have used that method before, it works great.

Note: In the context of this thread, center ball, means dead center(not high/low).

Now to the case of English(aka left/right), as you basically pointed out, is not needed in normal billiads play, becuase as long as you allow your self some angles on your shots, you can prett much do anything with the cb(as long as you don't suck with speed control anyway lol).

PS. English is really only a must in trick shots(trick shot tournies). I've seen alot of proes scratch, just becuase they added english when there was no need to.

I have to disagree with you here. Even if I never used side english for myself, what about where my opponent leaves me?

Also, I have seen people who can't spin their ball try to run out. Yes, they make an out from hell because they are cutting in everything center ball, but with a little judicious use of english, they could make their shots easier, attain better position and not have to take so many low percentage shots.

I am not saying center is not great. I shoot the stripe drill and it comes back into the middle of my tip. So it's not about being able to find center. BTW, I have also seen pros scratch because they used center, lol.

 

[gulyassy]

Mike,
Surely you're not saying you never potted with english? So how rarely did you find yourself having to use it?

And do you think players like Efren and Pagulayan would benefit by playing less english?

Colin

English is something I use because I have to. Common sense tells me that if I am on the rail strait in 8 foot from the winning ball, I am not going to hit with anything bur center ball. If I must get an angle for position I will spin the cue ball. For the money if at all possible I am hitting center with a tip low for control. The greats are spin masters and I think they are on the same track as I am. Jack them up on the rail with an eight foot draw shot and see what Efren uses. I use center ball because it is consistent on any table with any game under all circumstances.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In the context of this thread, center ball, means dead center(not high/low).

Why? The important distinction is between using sidespin or not. Hitting the cueball high or low on vertical center doesn't add aiming difficulty the way that sidespin does, which is the point of playing centerball.

And, by the way, "dead center" usually doesn't mean stun, and therefore usually won't keep the CB on the tangent line.

... English (aka left/right) [...] is not needed in normal billiads play, becuase as long as you allow your self some angles on your shots, you can prett much do anything with the cb...

That statement would be quite a stretch without high or low.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

English is something I use because I have to.

Sign me up for this philosophy.

pj
chgo

 

[Zoltor]

Why? The important distinction is between using sidespin or not. Hitting the cueball high or low on vertical center doesn't add aiming difficulty the way that sidespin does, which is the point of playing centerball.

And, by the way, "dead center" usually doesn't mean stun, and therefore usually won't keep the CB on the tangent line.



That statement would be quite a stretch without high or low.

pj
chgo

Those are 2 seperate statements, to two seperate arguments(of course, using no english on the cb, means you'll be shooting high/low, depending on where you need the cb to be.

 

[str8-pool]

I don't understand why this is such a huge debate. The only time you use "center ball" is on a stop shot and when you elevate the cue. If you don't want the object ball to have collision based throw, then you use a tip of outside english. Most people develop their aiming using center-ball which I believe is wrong unless it's straight in. Using parallel line aiming is actually pretty easy when you get into the habit of using it and I find it much more reliable. You have to aim to cue ball EXACTLY to the spot on the EXACT line through the object ball to the pocket with a tip of outside to get a true cut of the object ball. Using any other english or no english will cause it to leave the path in which is was supposed to go when the two balls made contact. When I aim a cut shot..I have more than one aim line. I visualize the pin point contact point on the object ball as best as I can, that exact OPPOSITE contact point on the cue ball( which will be the part that makes the actual contact ) aim those two points on a parallel line, then use center ball for my initial aiming refernce, then move parallel one tip to the outside. It's difficult to do unless you practice it a lot otherwise it really intrudes on the pace of play if you're not used to doing it. But it's
extremely reliable even length of the table on tiny pockets no matter
what the cut angle is or distance.
If anyone wants a diagram of this I'll make one to help explain
what I'm talking about.