Master Cue Maker Status

[masonh]

i guess everyone will have a slightly different idea of what constitutes master cuemaker and for me it would be in this order:

Playablity
Fit and Finish
Design and Style


i agree that hit is somewhat subjective but Eric is right if you put a handful of cues in a bunch of great players hands they will fairly consistently agree on which cues play better than others.playability is not as subjective as hit and playability is fairly easily measured by letting good players play with the cue.certain cues perform shots better than others and some will even do shots that others just can't do.

i haven't played with all of the msters cues or the cues that are generally consedred to be "master cuemaker cues",but i have played with most.

some of my favorite living/working cuemakers based 50% or more on playability would be Kersenbrock/Szamboti/Searing/Hercek/Stroud.there are more,but of the cues i have tried these are probably the top.these are cues that i would buy if i had the extra money laying around.

i realize that my idea of master cuemaker is different than most peoples and that most master cuemkaers are probably granted the status based on the looks/design and fit and finish of their cues and that is totally understandable.i just have a different idea of what it is.

 

[qbilder]

Put Burton Spain in there and I totally agree.

Don't forget Harvey Martin. He is the pioneer of big pin into wood. It's often attributed to DPK but Martin was doing it first.

 

[hangemhigh]

Don't forget Harvey Martin. He is the pioneer of big pin into wood. It's often attributed to DPK but Martin was doing it first.

Martin gets overlooked because of Rambow, both doing their thing around the same time. I agree though, he belongs. Did you take care of the Doctor?

 

[qbilder]

I'm also surprised Scruggs isn't on the list. His cues are wonderful players in general, and his work is masterfully clean. He's also innovative with design, while clearly having mastered the classic designs.

 

[qbilder]

Martin gets overlooked because of Rambow, both doing their thing around the same time. I agree though, he belongs. Did you take care of the Doctor?

Sure thing Will PM you tracking.

 

[Fatboy]

No one even close. Want one? Come with 12K and wait! That is where Black Boars Cues start.
There are masters and there is the man they wounder what universe he came from!
He is the masters master!
Nick

I agree his cues are amazing to say the least. He operates on a different level for sure. Mine plays amazing-the sceptics just havent been exposed to his cues. Its not about $$$ its about passion.

 

[poohkiller]

As for me there are two master cuemakers: Gus Szamboti and Burton Spain. I have read Burton's booklet many times and although I see what Balabushka has achieved (and I admire and respect his work without EVER questioning what he has done) to me he is not along with those two others and here is why.

It might sound very odd but I have spent days (if I add up all the hours spent it can be measured in days) not doing else but staring at two pictures of the works of these two craftsmen. One is what Mark Kulungian has sent me showing some finished and a few 'in progress' cues of Burton Spain and the other picture is which shows the Szamboti cues of Mark K. in the 2002 Oct. InsidePOOL magazine.

I have been looking at these cues, I have read many times the articles in the BBOC 3rd edition written about their builders and I was thinking how could anyone put such things together. I found them absolutely flawless.

I admire Burton Spain mostly for his developments and never ending motivation - even considering that he did have some years off and on from cuebuilding - along with his approach. The story of him seeing a split up titlist cue in Craig Petersen's shop and then trying painstakingly to produce something that is as good and strong (and then better and stronger) than that is great and what makes this whole story the best is that he wouldn't stop until his very last days.

On the other hand, although - naturally - Gus has built perfect (!) blanks as well but his designs are just incredible and I consider him a MASTER for those as well. Of course there had been similar designs I still believe - and correct me if I am wrong - that he has come up with designs that many copy today (no offense I think it is a very good thing to keep his designs alive today!!!) and that have hardly ever been seen before.

After some time I tried to draw some drafts of his butt sleeve designs. It might sound strange but I'd recommend for everyone to try and draw these designs. It was only after drawing them that I could totally (?) understand the ingenuity behind them - everything lines up, every single part of the design (from the tiniest ivory dot to the largest razor shaped window) clings together even before the completion of the drawing and then, when it is finally done, it feels like I'm Salvador Dali.

And yet I know I can't draw at all without such aids like a ruler:embarrassed2:

To sum up, I have noticed that there are two things in which these two masters are very similar: they have both began at a certain level in their first days (consider Burton Spain's very first blank that was 10 inch long and was narrower than a shaft or Gus's more simple designs) and they have both been keen on practicing, trying hard to get better, to become the best and neither of them had stopped before their last day here in 1988 or in 1994...

...and they have both become the best!!! (at least that's how I look at it) and for this reason they are my all-time Master craftsmen.

For someone today, who is not yet a master but would like to be, my criteria would be to create something New, to become a true one of a kind person and to stand out from the crowd.

 

[CueCaps]

My list..

Tate had a pic of who I would consider the living masters.

Gina
Tad
Schick
Stroud
Black
Kersenbrock

To me there are better cuemakers out there, but these gentlemen are the cream IMO, BECAUSE the led the way.....

Most influencial of all time.

Rambow
Balabushka
Szamboti
Gina
Kersenbrock

I cant see how anyone can disagree but feel free.

Ken

Ken's list is just about to same as my list too...
Wasn't Gus the first to start doing different inlay shapes (Plus, In Ivory..) other than the MOP ones that was offered in the musical parts catalog?
That opened up a whole new world of the hundreds of inlay shapes and combinations (that seem to be unlimited with imagination and now, CNC Machinery..) that make up the cues of today..
I would add Thomas Wayne as CNC Master who opened up the use of a CNC to the Next Higher Level, and still climbing as can be seen in the works of the CNC Cue Masters of today (Tony, Bob, Art, Author) .
As Far as Perfection, Ernie was that way for the longest time..
And add Eugene Balner (Of PALMER CUES) - One under rated cuemaker

 

[cuenut]

IMO I think the best way to find out who is best of the best is to ask other established and respected cuemakers. In my field the guys that are really great stand out in a group of their peers, and I would believe that can likely be said of a cuemaker, just as JB pointed out with Chas Clements and cases.

 

[Gwen's up]

Master: A person recognized to have acheived the highest degree of skill., One that excells in contest, skill etc.


This is the definition pulled from the dictionary.


I will comment on one of the builders that Fatboy "picked on".

Based solely on the definition above, I have to, respectfully disagree that Sugartree is a Master cue builder IMO.

I realize that it was not stated that he is one, just "very close."


I would be more inclined to say that he is a "Master Merry Widow Maker". He consistently excells in this style of cue. People seem to go crazy for them, paying top dollar, re-selling them for profit, giving fantastic reviews, and so on.

As Fatboy said, admittedly, Sugartree is only just learning feel comfortable doing ivory work, had to contact a fellow builder to do the re-milled points on that FANTASTIC CUE!!! by the way!! Totally Gorgeous! Way to go Eric.

But, I'm not sure I've ever seen a Sugartree with all the bells and whistles that other builders demonstrate, ie, points with veneers, boxes, inlays etc.

*Not saying that those who can or do this type of cue are necessarily "Masters"!!!

In order to be a master CUE BUILDER I would think one must be able to achieve and duplicate all of design details that are commonly found in cues. IMO


I want to compare this with, say, schooling.

I definately do not think Eric has a Masters Degree in cue building. This is all relative and subjective, but if you compare all the things there are to add to a cue, design-wise, I would think, Sugartree has recently earned his Bachelor's degree with a Doctorit in Merry Widows.


Just my opinion based on 1 very specific area. As it was stated by others, to judge based on hit, feel, etc. is all to personal to even come into effect.

I believe it takes consistent delivery of great craftsmanship, great design ideas, and great skill of all physical aspects of putting out a cue that will with-stand time and play without compromise.

JMO

 

[vinniebabarooch]

I think I could sum up my idea pretty easy. A master builder is one who reaches peak ability in known technique, then has the skill & knowledge & creativity to expand the craft.

Joel Hercek

 

[Graciocues]

A master can do it all.
The mastery of certain parts of cunstruction doesn't cut it.
These are a few qualities I think a master shoul have.
Have the skill and knowledge to build whatever comes in front of them and do it rite.
Be able to build all styles.
Know how to combine different woods and materials to get the hit they are looking for.
The word answers the question "MASTER"
A master has to be hightly skilled in every aspect.

Style doesn't have anything to do with it. That just means the builder likes that look. Everybody has their own opinion what looks good.


I hope I get on that masters list some day. Untill then I'll keep learning and practicing.

Cue building is like playing pool, you learn something new every day.

 

[Fatboy]

A master can do it all.
The mastery of certain parts of cunstruction doesn't cut it.
These are a few qualities I think a master shoul have.
Have the skill and knowledge to build whatever comes in front of them and do it rite.
Be able to build all styles.
Know how to combine different woods and materials to get the hit they are looking for.
The word answers the question "MASTER"
A master has to be hightly skilled in every aspect.

Style doesn't have anything to do with it. That just means the builder likes that look. Everybody has their own opinion what looks good.


I hope I get on that masters list some day. Untill then I'll keep learning and practicing.

Cue building is like playing pool, you learn something new every day.

you are headed there for sure, keep up the great work and please come back any time, hello to Wendy too!

 

[fourkingscues]

Eric in a few weeks i will show you two cues ...that surely come from master cue makers..best little Kenny

 

[qbilder]

As Fatboy said, admittedly, Sugartree is only just learning feel comfortable doing ivory work, had to contact a fellow builder to do the re-milled points on that FANTASTIC CUE!!! by the way!! Totally Gorgeous! Way to go Eric.

I appreciate the compliments But i'd have to correct you on the other cuemaker. I built the cue. The scallops are my design & as far as I know are not done by anybody else the way I do them. I just wanted to point out that Wes has been a great friend & influence, not that he helped me build the cue. I'm sorry if you misunderstood. It would be unethical & misleading if I were to send a cue to a show that I didn't build. That's not my cup of tea. In fact, splicing is one of my strong points. I'd put my point & butterfly work against anybody's & be confident. Veneers are not difficult, just not my style. I prefer natural colors & grain, not dyed sycamore. If I want a red veneer, it'll be bloodwood. I like traditional cues just fine. I just don't care to build them. There's no individuality in it, and there's already enough people doing it. I do have one coming along that was a special request, but don't count on many more.

I like guys like Barrenbrugge who innovate & think outside the box, guys who have fun experimenting & broadening the horizons. I like how Searing takes things to totally uncharted territory in accuracy. I like how BB takes post-renaissance/pre-victorian era designs & incorporates them into detailed, fine inlays. I like uniqueness best, but can appreciate well executed classic. So in terms of design, i'll never be a "master" because i'll always be individual. Not to compare cues to martial arts, but when the UFC first came out, the "masters" of traditional diciplines were getting their a$$es handed to them by innovative fighters, and eventually they created a new & powerful art. Our "classic" design cues were once innovative in their time, and now those guys are the most agreed upon "masters". Who's going to take the next step if we all keep copying them? There are few leaders & many followers. It's up to each of us to decide who we'll be.

Again, I appreciate the kind words, and am sorry if you misunderstood my words in the other topic. Take care

 

[Ken_4fun]

my error

Put Burton Spain in there and I totally agree.

I agree.

ken

 

[Gwen's up]

I appreciate the compliments But i'd have to correct you on the other cuemaker. I built the cue. The scallops are my design & as far as I know are not done by anybody else the way I do them. I just wanted to point out that Wes has been a great friend & influence, not that he helped me build the cue. I'm sorry if you misunderstood. It would be unethical & misleading if I were to send a cue to a show that I didn't build. That's not my cup of tea. In fact, splicing is one of my strong points. I'd put my point & butterfly work against anybody's & be confident. Veneers are not difficult, just not my style. I prefer natural colors & grain, not dyed sycamore. If I want a red veneer, it'll be bloodwood. I like traditional cues just fine. I just don't care to build them. There's no individuality in it, and there's already enough people doing it. I do have one coming along that was a special request, but don't count on many more.

I like guys like Barrenbrugge who innovate & think outside the box, guys who have fun experimenting & broadening the horizons. I like how Searing takes things to totally uncharted territory in accuracy. I like how BB takes post-renaissance/pre-victorian era designs & incorporates them into detailed, fine inlays. I like uniqueness best, but can appreciate well executed classic. So in terms of design, i'll never be a "master" because i'll always be individual. Not to compare cues to martial arts, but when the UFC first came out, the "masters" of traditional diciplines were getting their a$$es handed to them by innovative fighters, and eventually they created a new & powerful art. Our "classic" design cues were once innovative in their time, and now those guys are the most agreed upon "masters". Who's going to take the next step if we all keep copying them? There are few leaders & many followers. It's up to each of us to decide who we'll be.

Again, I appreciate the kind words, and am sorry if you misunderstood my words in the other topic. Take care

Ahhh, I see where you thought I meant that another builder built that cue. Sorry for typing an incomplete thought.

I meant to say that in my interpretation of the thread containing the cue I speak of, I took it as you had to contact Wes to teach you how to do the points.

I never thought that he built it for you. I was blown away by it...very uncharcteristic of the work I've seen from you. Bravo for stepping out!


I agree with you as far as building the Traditional/classic cue, too many guys already doing it so eventually they all seem to look the same.

I also think that of Merry widow cues and Sneaky Petes.

I believe a cue should show different design staples as well as innovative ideas and taking an old school idea and running with it...Ivory, or other material veneers instead of "dyed sycamore", veneered inlays, etc.

My disagreement was with Fatboy's analogy of a Master Cue Builder and who belongs to that club.


** After rereading this, it seems to come off with a hint of condescending attitude. This is totally not how I meant it, so please forgive as I cannot seem to reword it properly.

 

[tikkler]

Black Boar

Originally Posted by nick serdula
No one even close. Want one? Come with 12K and wait! That is where Black Boars Cues start.
There are masters and there is the man they wounder what universe he came from!
He is the masters master!
Nick



I agree his cues are amazing to say the least. He operates on a different level for sure. Mine plays amazing-the sceptics just havent been exposed to his cues. Its not about $$$ its about passion.
__________________
Sorry for the poor spelling, I was practicing 9 ball and missed that class.






A lot of opinions were given...and I agree with most of it,not all. There are some master builders, like Barry, Joel, Dennis,that I love dearly. There are also some who are considered masters that arent close..
But the bottom line is these two quotes by NIck and Eric.....are right on and I AGREE 1000% .....Black Boar RULES
Steve

 

[mullyman]

In my opinion a master cue maker would be someone that builds cues that are consistent in hit regardless of various weights and lengths of their cues and a design style that you can pick out of a crowd. Personally, and maybe I'm biased, but Paul Mottey deserves his spot on the mountain of the masters.
MULLY
to me there is no better cue than a Mottey

 

[qbilder]

Ahhh, I see where you thought I meant that another builder built that cue. Sorry for typing an incomplete thought.

I meant to say that in my interpretation of the thread containing the cue I speak of, I took it as you had to contact Wes to teach you how to do the points.

I never thought that he built it for you. I was blown away by it...very uncharcteristic of the work I've seen from you. Bravo for stepping out!


I agree with you as far as building the Traditional/classic cue, too many guys already doing it so eventually they all seem to look the same.

I also think that of Merry widow cues and Sneaky Petes.

I believe a cue should show different design staples as well as innovative ideas and taking an old school idea and running with it...Ivory, or other material veneers instead of "dyed sycamore", veneered inlays, etc.

My disagreement was with Fatboy's analogy of a Master Cue Builder and who belongs to that club.


** After rereading this, it seems to come off with a hint of condescending attitude. This is totally not how I meant it, so please forgive as I cannot seem to reword it properly.

I understood what you are saying, I think. I never took anything as foul, just your entitled opinion. Differing opinions & ideas are what give cues the dynamic allure. Otherwise we'd all have the same exact cues. That just wouldn't be fun