New direction for the players

[Terry Ardeno]

Freddy,
...I had several other suggestions, one of which was if you want to help the pros, why not start a new tour? Or find new sponsorship in the corporate world? Then they could have the big money that we would like to see them compete for. Wouldn't these things bring more help on a larger scale than collecting fees for autographs?
Terry, I'll say this for the 5th time, I never said anything about collecting fees for autographs. Fees for autographing memorabilia. You want me to start a New Pro Tour? I'm 67 years old, I cant stay up past 8oclock at night. I never knew this was an issue with the pros. Again, in my previous post, almost all of them seemed more than happy and very flattered that people wanted them to sign a photo. It would humble me if someone asked me to simply sign my name to something. The whole process, including some small chit-chat takes what, 1 minute?

And how do you think they feel when they hear the Nascar guys gets 25k up front to do an autograph session?

Judging by the over all tone of the replies, how do you think this is going to go over?
This wouldnt be the first time I went against the grain.

...Does BJ Ussery or Brian Gregg or Truman Hogue have the same status as Daulton, Strickland and Archer?

Initially, everybody gets the same fee.

Whatever happens, I'm still looking forward to the release of your DVD's.
Check your mailbox in a day or so, I sent you a preview copy.

...Was it really that broke that it needed fixing?

I aint trying to fix anything. I'm trying to make a buck for myself and the players, and in the process, elevate the value of a champion pool player.


the Beard

Beard,
Please, be patient with me. I was not the smartest guy in school and I sure ain't the smartest here. But my heart is right, and very much for the pro player.
Asking questions means people are interested. Having an opinion means we care. You answering means you're serious. This is a pool forum for sharing thoughts and views. If we all thought alike, it would be like the old U.S.S.R. mentality of state run pooldom.
You won't lose your fan base by having an idea that not everybody understands or concurs with. Neither are we cheap skates who want to deny a pro anything. You under-estimate the loyalty of those in pooldom, my esteemed pal.

 

[JCIN]

I noticed a recurring theme throughout the 80 plus threads to this post. Even though I had no intention of players ever denying a fan or a child a free autograph, and my intention when I suggested they didn't give their John Henry on a product for free, I am appalled at the vehemently negative response to the idea that a champion players autograph might be worth something. So many seemed to say that a lowly pool champions autograph, even on a souvenir wasn't really worth hardly anything, and to compare pool champions with other REAL sports champions like Ivan Rodriguez or Michael Jordan was a joke. For guys who frequent a POOL FORUM, your lack of respect and esteem and the low value you assign to the players in our game is unbelievable to me. WELL, I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY! I believe our players have got as much or more coming as any of the limelighted sports whizzes. I believe our guys signature is worth something. If you don't believe me, try to buy one of my Bugs signed cue balls. As for how far off base my idea is, just go to Google, like I did, and search for "autograph signings." This is what came up right away:

Http://www.creativesportsent.com/jegatabaybud.html
Jeff Garcia - Autographed 8x10 Photo - Tampa Bay Bucs
Jeff Garcia - Pre-order Bucs 8x10 $59.99

$60 hammers for a photo of -- who?-- Jeff Garcia? What's his quarterback rating? About 75? For him to sign these items below you must provide and send the item, and then pay the quoted prices.

8x10's , 16x20's & Mini Helmets - $55.00
Fullsize Helmets , Football , Jersey's , - $75.00

Here's another site on the same page:
Http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=29
BILLY ROHR
(Who is Billy Rohr? Apparently a baseball player. Can he break, and put together a six pack?)

will be appearing live at Sportsworld August 19th, 2007 from 12pm - 2pm
If you're going to attend the signing at Sportsworld
Order your advanced tickets today!
Advanced tickets cover the cost of the autograph ONLY
8x10's, & baseballs will be available to purchase at the store
this will allow you to get in the ticket holder line the day of the show.
Inscriptions are optional and cost an additional $5 which can be paid the day of the show
$20 per Autograph.

I'm sick of pool players being thought of as second-class citizens in the world of sports. In my eyes Bugs Rucker deserves as much respect as Joe Louis or Mohammed Ali. When somebody like Mickey Mantle is all washed up at 31yrs old, and then you have someone like Incardona still dabbing it at 60 plus, why should pool players ever have to sit in the back of the room?

The Beard

When people mention pool players autographs not having "worth" I think they mean monetary value on the open market, not that pool players are worthless therefore their signature is as well.

As far as the other sports you mention, it is not really relevant here IMO. You want to compare apples to apples look for what pro bowlers autographs bring on the open market.

The players should be paid for things they endorse and merchandise they sign that is designed to be resold to fans. I like your idea of having lots of different players merchandise in one place for people to buy. That provides convience and therefore adds value for the customer. It is the whole package that will sell people, the autogragh, the item, the presentation and the marketing.

The cold reality is the vast majority of the people, even many people who play the game have no idea of the skill and heart required to do the things many of the pros do. I think the way to change that is educate people and make the pro's more available to fans. Everything from easily accessable information on the players to the pros signing everything a fan puts in front of them. That will get fans to form attachments to the players and empathize with them. How do you think Nascar went from a regional sideshow to a juggernaught. One of the big reasons is driver accesability and the marketing of the players personalities. Fans start to care how a guy does, next thing you know everything they own has a number on it. Just my opinion.

 

[freddy the beard]

What is it that you do for nothing. Give me some.

It just sounds like you're trying to make money off the players without having to actually do anything.

How about giving 100% of the proceeds to the pro's autograph thats signed?

Of course not, because without you making a buck, it's not worth it for you.

So much for "elevating the value of a champion player".

I'm sorry if this comes off sounding rude, but it really does seem like you're trying to hustle a buck off the fans at their expense without you doing any work.

Why dont the pool table manufacturers, cuemakers, billiard suppliers, give the tables, cues, etc. away for nothing. "Without me doing any work!?" I have already put my time and money up. I got 50 years in the racket, son. You telling me I have no right to make a profit? What are you, a communist. Answering, vicious, bone-headed, and yes, rude, threads like this one is a full days work.

the Beard
the Beard

 

[ioCross]

Why dont the pool table manufacturers, cuemakers, billiard suppliers, give the tables, cues, etc. away for nothing.

They are selling a product that they produce. You're selling someone else's autograph on a poolball. There is no real "product" that you are selling, you are trying to sell someone's scribble on an item.

"Without me doing any work!?" I have already put my time and money up. I got 50 years in the racket, son. You telling me I have no right to make a profit?

I apologize that pool is in such a state that a personality like yourself would have to go to these levels to try to make a buck. I have never said you do not have a right to make a profit off your labors, but at the same time what right do you have to tell the pro players to not sign any more cueballs or cue cases so you can make money off the top? So why can't Grady Mathews do the same thing? Or Keith McCready, or Buddy Hall? You're pretty much trying to sell other people's intellectual property while trying to start and maintain a monopoly on it. In this case, you DO NOT have a right to do so, because you have no rights to the product you are trying to hawk.

What are you, a communist. Answering, vicious, bone-headed, and yes, rude, threads like this one is a full days work.

I am all for capitalism, I believe a free market economy can get a lot more done then any type of socialist setting. If you consider answering posts on a form to be work, I can understand why you would try to make money off of this misadventure.

the Beard
the Beard

Respectfully yours,
the Chin.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Freddy,

Try not to take offense to all the flak you are getting. In any business, you have to do market research. I would say that the AZ forum readership pretty much represents your target market for this memorabilia.

If your target market is fairly unanimous in telling you they don't like the product, then the product better have good marketing when it comes out, to change public perception.

If your plan is to go forward with no changes to the plan, in the face of all the feedback you've recieved on the subject..... Well, let's just say, "Good luck with that, sir..."

I just don't want to see you ruin your good name with the community. Remember, if this isn't a workable idea, there is always some other idea that is workable.

Russ

 

[nfty9er]

Why this cannot work. IMO

Though your intentions are noble and you want repect for the players you cannot compare them with mainstream sports heroes.
In the mainstream sports we are talking millions of fans for each sport compared to maybe hundreds? At best thousands. You cannot just go to a game of a pro and get any autograph let alone of a particular individual. It is slim and none. You are lucky to get one and you also have to be in the right place at the right time. You are competing against thouands at the venue that day. Now I would bet you anything I could get every major pool players signature within six months. To do that of just any other sport you could name might be impossible. That is why MLB, Nfl, Mlb, Nhl and all other sports can market all that merchandise at games or on the internet or whatever. It is supply and demand along with convenience. Say a kid wants a autograph baseball of Alex Rodriguez. Good luck unless you buy it at the stadium store. That is the way they work it as players sign their rights away to allow that at a price beneficial to them either in their contract or personal commitment for compensation. All ball players are not required to join in that but most do. Barry Bonds for example does not subscribe to that system where MLB makes most of the money. But if a kid wants Efren Reyes autograph, it is simple. No crowd to fight, no competition to shove someone in front of his face and hope he grabs it. Just ask after he wins another match and he is happy to oblige. Why in the heck would anyone want to stand in line to buy a signed item for such and such amount when an hour later after his match you can get anything you want signed. When people stand in line at card shows or whatever, it works, because it is the only way those people will have a chance in hell to ever get an autograph let alone meet the star.
Those "stars" are the best and make milliions and that is why they are popular, not that they are better in their profession than pool players.
So it boils down to supply and demand. Like someone else said, it is comparing apples and oranges.
FWIw,, IMO

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

And I'm Still Thinking A Mile-A-Minute

Well, I may be swimming upstream, but I like Freddy's idea. I like it so much, that I'm in the process of having some business cards printed up for my new business venture....

A.I.R. ( Autographed Item Recovery ). I'm sending out feelers to poolplayers offering my services in getting their items BACK. I mean, I already have the gun and a voice activated tape recorder.

I'm not new to this autograph business and I'm well aware that autographed items go way UP in value when the signer is no longer around to sign items. This opens up an entirely different business for me and my long rifle (with the scope) if I can get someone to take out a signed contract.....

Doug
( the possibilities are endless )

I once offered to play one game of 8-ball against The Rock for our autograph. The big wimp called Security to protect him from the 'scary man'....

Edited to add: my current idea is not autographs, so it won't conflict with Freddy's idea......... it's a Pro Poolplayer DUNK TANK ( 3 tosses for $1 ) and I'll split the proceeds with the player.

 

[derekdisco]

I'm just curious about which players are on "the list"?

 

[JCIN]

I'm just curious about which players are on "the list"?

If he got them at the Qlympics about 10.

I kid....I kid.

 

[derekdisco]

If he got them at the Qlympics about 10.

I kid....I kid.

That's what I was thinking, and if this is the case, then how much for a Shannon Murphy autograph? Or Jason Klatt? Will the price vary on abilities? I'm so confused

 

[ShootingArts]

well . . . .

Doug,

If you plan on putting certain female pool players in the dunking booth in proper attire for the project I'll bet anyone ten to one that your idea makes more money than Freddy's!

Freddy doesn't exactly have a bad idea in general if he can refine it into a working deal, the idea of the players refusing other signings seemed to be what tripped most folks' trigger.

Hu

Well, I may be swimming upstream, but I like Freddy's idea. I like it so much, that I'm in the process of having some business cards printed up for my new business venture....

A.I.R. ( Autographed Item Recovery ). I'm sending out feelers to poolplayers offering my services in getting their items BACK. I mean, I already have the gun and a voice activated tape recorder.

I'm not new to this autograph business and I'm well aware that autographed items go way UP in value when the signer is no longer around to sign items. This opens up an entirely different business for me and my long rifle (with the scope) if I can get someone to take out a signed contract.....

Doug
( the possibilities are endless )

I once offered to play one game of 8-ball against The Rock for our autograph. The big wimp called Security to protect him from the 'scary man'....

Edited to add: my current idea is not autographs, so it won't conflict with Freddy's idea......... it's a Pro Poolplayer DUNK TANK ( 3 tosses for $1 ) and I'll split the proceeds with the player.

 

[cleary]

Take your Bugs signed cue balls down to a sporting memorabilia shop and see how much they would give you for them.

 

[u12armresl]

This thread is coming from a guy "Freddy" who puts up a video of 2 banks that he bets you can't make and you see him set it up then edit to it going in so you can't see all his "secrets" ROFLMAO.

Like anyone wouldn't buy the video if they saw those shots.
Buy my book, by my dvd, by my bank on brother shirts, by my autographed cue balls and sticks.

Is there a common theme here?

Freddy, you might want to corner the market and get the pros paid say $1 per post in the ask a pro section on the forum.

 

[lodini]

Take your Bugs signed cue balls down to a sporting memorabilia shop and see how much they would give you for them.

It's so hard not to sound unpatriotic to our sport while discussing this... but I think some of us here are just trying to state the reality of the situation. I just went on the website for Steiner Sports, one of the leading sports memorabilia companies in the country. It's a $17million a year business, so these people know what they are talking about.

They represent 1,700 athletes in all major sports from baseball to horse racing. Not one pool player. (at least from my search... I tried!)

The monetary "worth" of a pool player's autographed memorabilia will, at this point in time, only be what people are willing to pay for it. And from the sound of this forum, that's not much. If ever pool becomes a big thing and popularity soars, then so will the business of signed pool memorabilia. Until then, it is what it is.

When people pay big money for a signed piece of merchandise in any sport, (with the exception of sentimental value) they are really hoping that eventually it will be worth more than they paid for it.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

But, I DO Wish Freddy Good Luck Wit Dat

Freddy doesn't exactly have a bad idea in general if he can refine it into a working deal, the idea of the players refusing other signings seemed to be what tripped most folks' trigger.

Hu

I applaud Freddy for ANY idea to further the popularity of pool, but the problem that I see is this:
Almost without exception, the big name autographs are mega stars. They make millions and millions of fans want to "Be Like Mike" or fly "Air Jordon."
As soon as Freddy gets ALL the poolplayers on board and starts to make some money from autographed memorabilia, the unscrupulous gambling, hungry, broke, need a fix poolplayers are going to find a way to circumvent poor ole Freddy and sell their autographs (items) out the back door and pocket the money....
I see Freddy's endeavor as a giant P.I.T.A. with a little chance of making a little money and more hassle than it's worth in the long run...

Doug (imo)



.

 

[Ktown D]

Here is my take on this: I don't necessarily fault the players that were asked to defer to the booth when asked for an autograph. After all , it is there livelihood and any extra income is a plus when the pay is already horrible. However, I don't think the market is there and may never be there to allow a big windfall from pool autographs. The few dollars made from this venture will most likely not be worth the loss of respect for the players and certainly the vendor. I once told a stripper that sitting next to me was Shannon Daulton, one of the best pool players in the world and asked if she wanted him to sign her boob. She smiled but declined. I would like to have a signed picture taken of me and all of the champions I have gone out with and taken shots with at one time or another. Now that would be some cool memorabilia!

Yeah.... Me, Shannon and a few others went to Platinum over in Greenville and we were all "professional" pool players.

You know what that got us? You guessed it. We didn't garner a lot of respect as pool pros but we made a lot of new friends.

D<-- Still has a couple of 2 dollar bills laying around somewhere.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Sjm

I would love to hear what SJM thinks of this whole idea. He has terrific insight into things and a gift of putting together very thoughtful posts.

Freddy has substantially cleared things up, and the firestorm has died down considerably. Hopefully, this whole endeaver will work out well for everybody.

 

[Ktown D]

this is what happens when addicts need quick cash

I accidentally "good" repped you for this and I really wish there was a way I could rectify it. You deserve as much bad rep as you can get from your assinine comments. You are a tool.

 

[smashmouth]

pc skills? lol

 

[blackeee]

What?!

I am putting together an organization that will insure that the players get paid for their autographs. No more cue balls, shirts, photos, or sticks signed for nix. Every other sports celebrity in the world gets paid big money to sign sports gear, but not our guys. I am going to try and change all that. I talked to all the major players at the Olympics in Louisville this Nov. To a man they were all excited by the idea. To start it off I paid all of them -- in front-- to sign some cue balls and other stuff. I am going to have them, and other top players, from Efren on down, pre-autograph sports gear to be marketed from my booth at DCC and then on my website with the boys getting a cut of everything they sign -- in front. At Derby City I will be at a booth that will have, among other things, pre-autographed memorabilia, and the ability to provide -- on request -- autographs on whatever memorabilia the fans provide, their shirts, sticks, whatever. The players will get paid for every signature. I am then going to take it further and solicit the big billiard supply companies and allow them to advertise and sell, officially autographed memorabilia, balls, cues, clothing, etc. I'm also going to hit on the cuemakers and allow them to sell their sticks with a real autograph on them, not a machine print. Naturally, that would allow the cuemakers to charge a few bucks extra for a special edition cue. For this service they would pay our organization a fee. The players I talked to have agreed to not sign anything for free at DCC. They will refer all requests to my booth. To give an idea of what the marketing for this stuff might look like on a suppliers catalog page, I'm including a preview of some of the marketing I am going to do on my webpage where I am going to solicit requests for autographed cueballs and display cases. A fan can reserve an autographed cueball and trophy case and I will get his ball signed for him at Derby City in Jan.

The Beard
(exception: the Bugs signed cueballs on display below are not for sale)

Freddy, I'm a big fan of yours.I buy your books and CDs but I ain't paying NOBODY for an autograph!