New direction for the players

[jay helfert]

There is one quick way to find out the value of poolplayer's autographs. Put about four or five of the best players at a table at Derby City and let them sign any item that is put before them. And let's say it will cost you only $10 for the signature on your item. Let's see how many people line up for this opportunity to get the players autograph.

If a line forms, then it's a good idea. If no one steps up for an autograph, it's a bad idea. The marketplace is the ultimate yardstick on how good an idea is. Freddie is not the greatest Bank Pool player of all time by any means, yet there is a nice market for his books. That tells me something. Pool fans expect value for their money, and he delivers it in his book.

Personally at this point in time, the only poolplayer autograph I can see having any value belongs to a certain Mr. Reyes. And he is only to happy to sign away freely, and with a smile to boot. And if you want a photo with him, you only have to ask. This is one reason he has retained his popularity for so long. He is so fan friendly.

 

[ShootingArts]

Jim, look again

II would NEVER ask a player to give up part of his time (which is his LIFE!) to sign an autograph on anything.... not without paying him/her for it.

It is a part of their LIFE I'm asking for and I have no right to ask for that.... no right to ask and certainly no right to EXPECT that they will do it for me. I think it's terribly rude and presumptious to ask for an autograph.



I like to get close and thank them for their hours of labor in reaching such an incredible skill level

Jim you push yourself on them uninvited and take part of their life to talk to them. It is just as much a part of their life gone regardless of what you take their time doing. The difference is that when you thank them they receive little benefit. If you wear or display their signature, they get free advertising and raise their profile.

I ignore people with some celebrity unless they are obviously in meet and greet mode. Taking their time is exactly the same loss of part of their lifetime regardless of how I ask them to occupy that time. Doesn't matter if I am telling them how wonderful they are, asking a stupid question, or asking them for an autograph.

It isn't arrogance on my part, simply respect for their space. I recently spent eight hours next to someone with national and international repute. When he was in the mood we talked. Otherwise I let him be. He offered an autographed book for sale and I purchased one autographed to a friend whom I knew already had several of his books.

In keeping with the subject of the thread, here is the cost of the autograph by someone far better known than 99% of pool players in the US. He volunteered to discount the book an extra 33% from the reduced price he was selling it for normally if he autographed it!

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

I assume

I'd pay her to sign an autograph!

Jay,

I assume you mean that you would pay her to let you sign an autograph? If so the line forms to my left!

Hu

 

[JCIN]

I think I get what Freddy is trying to accomplish. We sell autographed stuff and the players get half. We buy the stuff, they sign it, we put it on the site and ship it then we split the money in half. So far a good deal for all. The thing is if a guy brings a cueball or shirt he can get the same thing for free at our events, as he should. Basically what we are selling is convience. It gives people a way to get a piece of memorabelia(sp) if they are unable to get to the venue. We have had nothing but positive responses so far.

That said, I think trying to build a market through forced exclusivity is a non starter, as evidenced by the response to this thread. The answer IMO is through marketing and having cool stuff signed and ready to go. Diana Hoppe is a great example. For a very reasonable price you get an original photograph that is signed and she can even do custom stuff right there because she brings all the stuff necessary.

I don't think people will pay for an autograph.I mean that in the sense of bringing a cue to a table and paying a guy to sign it. The only way to give that value is through the no signing outside of the table route. Which we have established don't go over so good. I know they will pay for signed merchandise. They wont buy many and they wont pay much but it can sell.

They key is making the items that they sign have value and make people say "That is cool...and it's signed too."

I think everyone latched on to the no freebies gist right off the bat and said "That is nuts" I know I did. But after reading some of Freddie's responses I think I get what he's after. The key is to provide value for the money, either convience or gee whiz factor. If you want exclusivity make the item a limited edition. We did it with a photo I made up of Shane and Corey, signed and framed, we made 4. $50 a pop. They all sold. No one is gonna get rich but the fans get a cool piece and the players and us get lunch money. It's a start.

I hope whatever it ends up being everyone walks away happy.

 

[Gerry]

The first and only time I was ever "asked" to pay for an autograph was from Mike Sigel. I turned and walked even though at the time he was #1 on my favorite list.

A few years ago at the Expo my wife got me a T-shirt from the event for my new pool room at home and started collecting autographs from players....Ralph Soquet (sp) told her to follow him, and he stopped every Pro he could find to sign the shirt. THATS the kind of cool story I like to hear about Pros. I'm now a BIG fan of Ralph.....

>>Here's a better idea...set up a challenge table, $10 bucks a rack of 9ball (win or lose)...if you lose the player signs your pic/shirt/cue etc....if you win the player signs your pic/shirt/cue etc.....sound more like fun and THAT would draw a crowd and promote good will!

Gerry

 

[ioCross]

In a burgeoning sport thats slowly losing steam, and is in danger of being extinct, is this really a good idea?

I agree with the people who have said autographs are a waste of time, I can however see how someone who had a cueball signed by efren would be a prize (this is the important part) for a pool player. Anyone who doesn't shoot pool could give two craps less about it.

You cannot compare that to a Michael Jordan signed jersey, whom anyone would find valuable.

So you can't look at pool in the same sense as any other "real" (and by that i mean prominently endorsed) sport. Just because a certain model works for golf doesn't mean it will work for pool.

I can garuntee you the first time a kid goes to a pro tourney and tries to get Corey Duel or Shannon Dulton to give him a signature and gets denied the sport will suffer tremendously.

Will you be making a profit percentage off this deal, Mr. Beard? If 100% of the proceeds are going to the players then it seems like you have the players interests in mind, and are a little bit misguided; but if you are trying to make money off denying fans that want their case or cueball signed, then you are going to be hurting the already dying fan base of pool to make a few pennies by piggybacking off the fame of pro players.

One more thought: Pool is in a bad state right now. The last thing we need is to chase fans away by seeming like a bunch of petty money grubbers. And you CANNOT compare the sport of pool to say, golf, baseball, nascar or even bass fishing and say "well if Tiger Woods does it then why cant Efren Reyes?"

 

[iba7467]

I have truly enjoyed Freddy's books as they have truly helped what little bank game I have. For this, I will not berate him for his ideas.

I will offer a similar instance with Ralf Souquet as was above. At DCC in the last 2 years I have had a case and a t-shirt signed. I donated the t-shirt to my local pool hall for display and kept the case until I needed a larger one.

I sold the case for it's exact value, no premium despite 15 or so signatures of the world's greatest.

I also have offered a 30 year-old book autographed by the most famous poolplayer ever, Minnesota Fats, for trade not $$$ and cannot get any offers. Pool player's autographs are requested out of respect and for most of us to remember an experience, not for profit. The market is not high enough to merit it, but I could be wrong.

 

[iba7467]

Other sports.

A-Rod makes $986.93 per minute if he plays every minute of every game next season not to mention an additional $30 million for breaking additional homerun records.

Tiger Woods last year earned $6468.48 per minute during his wins on the PGA last year.

Are other sports' heroes any better than pool's, probably not... is their time worth more, no crap!!!

 

[hemicudas]

The way I understand it the reason Freddie doesn't have the Bugs cue balls for sale is that they are to be raffeled off or sold at auction for a worthwile cause, if I'm wrong on that I'm sure Freddie will let me know.

When Bugs was shooting his banks instructional video at Jim's Rack And Cue in Shorewood, IL my son asked him if he would mind signing his cue ball. Bugs, as usual, was all class and signed his ball for him. Never was there a thought in Bugs' mind to ask for any money from my son, he was glad to do it. In fact he signed his full name, Leonard Rucker.

 

[lodini]

A-Rod makes $986.93 per minute if he plays every minute of every game next season not to mention an additional $30 million for breaking additional homerun records.

Tiger Woods last year earned $6468.48 per minute during his wins on the PGA last year.

Are other sports' heroes any better than pool's, probably not... is their time worth more, no crap!!!

Their time may not necessarily be worth more, but their autograph sure is

 

[iba7467]

Their time may not necessarily be worth more, but their autograph sure is

I'm just saying if you paid them for the minute you stopped them to get their autograph.... well, you see where I'm going.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I should have been more clear in my initial post. This is not about denying little Johnny his free autograph. The players will still sign autographs -- if they feel like it -- on paper, programs etc. They will not sign PRODUCTS OR SOUVENIRS without an endorsement commission -- and why should they? An Ivan Roderiguez baseball glove aint free, and he gets his cut for his replicated signature and endorsement. These are like mini-endorsements, and a way for the players to make a buck.

the Beard

Freddy,
I just got back home and wanted to add a few things.

The above quoted remarks sure do convey a different picture than what was first posted. And that's not a cut. It's good that your proposal is easier to understand now.

Davis Uwate said this..."Freddy, a good sample of your target market is right here on AZB. They are telling you how well this will go over."

In post # 24, I had several other suggestions, one of which was if you want to help the pros, why not start a new tour? Or find new sponsorship in the corporate world? Then they could have the big money that we would like to see them compete for. Wouldn't these things bring more help on a larger scale than collecting fees for autographs? Our sport is about as popular as Pro Bowling. Or Pro Rodeo. We have a very small but very dedicated fan base. Can you imagine a proposal like this going over in some other sports not covered by ESPN's SportsCenter?

I never knew this was an issue with the pros. Again, in my previous post, almost all of them seemed more than happy and very flattered that people wanted them to sign a photo. It would humble me if someone asked me to simply sign my name to something. The whole process, including some small chit-chat takes what, 1 minute?

One thing for sure that the fans at the pro tourneys love is mingling with the great players they watch play and read about. But, if the fan support of some of the tournaments dry up, as MLB fans did when MLB went on strike, do you think this would cause more promoters to also fold? And then there's less money to go around. Poker has all but killed big money being easy pickin's on the road anymore.

Did anybody consult with Allen Hopkins? I am curious as to his thoughts on having the pros at his Super Billiard Expo take the propsed stance.

Going back to Dave Uwate's remarks, here is the die hard and core fan base of pool, as exampled by the posters here. Judging by the over all tone of the replies, how do you think this is going to go over?

One more thing, who's going to oversee this new venue? Who fronts the logistics, record keeping and operating costs? Will this trinkle down to the Viking Tour, Joss Tour, Blaze, etc? Are those promoters on board? At what point is a fee demanded? Does BJ Ussery or Brian Gregg or Truman Hogue have the same status as Daulton, Strickland and Archer?

This seems to me like the old fashioned wildcat strikes that the UMW or steelworkers tried. Are all the pros on board? What about the ones that say "No way.? Are they banned like the UPA banned some players?

Whatever happens, I'm still looking forward to the release of your DVD's and I'm hoping that you'll pen another sequal to your first two books, which were two of my all time favorite pool reads by the way. I still look forward to hearing you commentate on Accu-Stats and I will always be interested in you opining here and at 1Pocket.org. I just disagree with you on this new idea. It should be up to each player and each fan to dictate the terms of any encounter.

Was it really that broke that it needed fixing?

 

[freddy the beard]

What does your son think of that ball?

...When Bugs was shooting his banks instructional video at Jim's Rack And Cue in Shorewood, IL my son asked him if he would mind signing his cue ball. Bugs, as usual, was all class and signed his ball for him. Never was there a thought in Bugs' mind to ask for any money from my son, he was glad to do it. In fact he signed his full name, Leonard Rucker.

Bill, does that ball hold any value for your son? If we assign value only to the players that make it to prime time, and look at our guys like they aint worth so much, then that's our own fault for allowing the media to tell us what's worthwhile.

the Beard

 

[rossaroni]

I don't want to bash Freddy, I am sure his original intentions were good. However, like the majority of people who have responded, I don't think this is a great idea. Personally, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth, if I was refused an autograph from a pro pool player. I have numerous pool autographs and other sports autographs. This includes Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Cal Ripken Jr., Whitey Ford, etc. I even waited around after Cubs games and always was able to get players to sign for free, weather they won or lost. The only ones I ever paid for were Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle and these were at sports card shows. They cost $20 which is not way out of line. As far as pool goes- I have autographs from Jimmy Caras, Jimmy Moore, Dallas West, Eddie Taylor, Nick Varner, Strickland, etc. and everyone seemed happy to give there autograph free of charge.
I think everyone agrees that pool players as a whole, don't make a whole lot of money. If they had to charge for autographs, maybe putting the money back into the tournament fund would be a good idea. If the player does good in the tournament, they would get some extra money back. The big difference between pool and other sports is the money generated from major sports like baseball, football, and basketball. It is so hard to compare pool with other sports. Of course, the money in pool is way, way less then other sports. Therefore, autographs won't fetch the same as certain other sports. I believe that most people wanting a pool autograph are not in it to make money. Fact is, the demand is not strong enough for people to get rich of pool atuographs. I think that most people would agree that pool players derserve more money, but I don't think charging for autographs is the best way to go.

 

[freddy the beard]

Go to Google and see if there is a market

I noticed a recurring theme throughout the 80 plus threads to this post. Even though I had no intention of players ever denying a fan or a child a free autograph, and my intention when I suggested they didn't give their John Henry on a product for free, I am appalled at the vehemently negative response to the idea that a champion players autograph might be worth something. So many seemed to say that a lowly pool champions autograph, even on a souvenir wasn't really worth hardly anything, and to compare pool champions with other REAL sports champions like Ivan Rodriguez or Michael Jordan was a joke. For guys who frequent a POOL FORUM, your lack of respect and esteem and the low value you assign to the players in our game is unbelievable to me. WELL, I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY! I believe our players have got as much or more coming as any of the limelighted sports whizzes. I believe our guys signature is worth something. If you don't believe me, try to buy one of my Bugs signed cue balls. As for how far off base my idea is, just go to Google, like I did, and search for "autograph signings." This is what came up right away:

Http://www.creativesportsent.com/jegatabaybud.html
Jeff Garcia - Autographed 8x10 Photo - Tampa Bay Bucs
Jeff Garcia - Pre-order Bucs 8x10 $59.99

$60 hammers for a photo of -- who?-- Jeff Garcia? What's his quarterback rating? About 75? For him to sign these items below you must provide and send the item, and then pay the quoted prices.

8x10's , 16x20's & Mini Helmets - $55.00
Fullsize Helmets , Football , Jersey's , - $75.00

Here's another site on the same page:
Http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=29
BILLY ROHR
(Who is Billy Rohr? Apparently a baseball player. Can he break, and put together a six pack?)

will be appearing live at Sportsworld August 19th, 2007 from 12pm - 2pm
If you're going to attend the signing at Sportsworld
Order your advanced tickets today!
Advanced tickets cover the cost of the autograph ONLY
8x10's, & baseballs will be available to purchase at the store
this will allow you to get in the ticket holder line the day of the show.
Inscriptions are optional and cost an additional $5 which can be paid the day of the show
$20 per Autograph.

I'm sick of pool players being thought of as second-class citizens in the world of sports. In my eyes Bugs Rucker deserves as much respect as Joe Louis or Mohammed Ali. When somebody like Mickey Mantle is all washed up at 31yrs old, and then you have someone like Incardona still dabbing it at 60 plus, why should pool players ever have to sit in the back of the room?

The Beard

 

[hemicudas]

Bill, does that ball hold any value for your son? If we assign value only to the players that make it to prime time, and look at our guys like they aint worth so much, then that's our own fault for allowing the media to tell us what's worthwhile.

the Beard

You've got a point for sure, Beard. That display case was not there when Bugs signed the ball. My son bought it to display the ball in our game room so obviously the ball has great value to my son and probably others too especially now since the mighty Bugs is no longer with us, God rest his soul.

I, like Terry, am very glad you further explained your point. I would hate to see my son walk up to Buddy, wearing a Bank On Brother shirt and ask him to autograph his shirt and Buddy tell him he can't because Freddie sells those shirts with his autograph already on them. Could that scenario occur?

 

[freddy the beard]

I said, autographed memorabilia!

Freddy,
...I had several other suggestions, one of which was if you want to help the pros, why not start a new tour? Or find new sponsorship in the corporate world? Then they could have the big money that we would like to see them compete for. Wouldn't these things bring more help on a larger scale than collecting fees for autographs?
Terry, I'll say this for the 5th time, I never said anything about collecting fees for autographs. Fees for autographing memorabilia. You want me to start a New Pro Tour? I'm 67 years old, I cant stay up past 8oclock at night. I never knew this was an issue with the pros. Again, in my previous post, almost all of them seemed more than happy and very flattered that people wanted them to sign a photo. It would humble me if someone asked me to simply sign my name to something. The whole process, including some small chit-chat takes what, 1 minute?

And how do you think they feel when they hear the Nascar guys gets 25k up front to do an autograph session?

Judging by the over all tone of the replies, how do you think this is going to go over?
This wouldnt be the first time I went against the grain.

...Does BJ Ussery or Brian Gregg or Truman Hogue have the same status as Daulton, Strickland and Archer?

Initially, everybody gets the same fee.

Whatever happens, I'm still looking forward to the release of your DVD's.
Check your mailbox in a day or so, I sent you a preview copy.

...Was it really that broke that it needed fixing?

I aint trying to fix anything. I'm trying to make a buck for myself and the players, and in the process, elevate the value of a champion pool player.


the Beard

 

[ioCross]

I noticed a recurring theme throughout the 80 plus threads to this post. Even though I had no intention of players ever denying a fan or a child a free autograph, and my intention when I suggested they didn't give their John Henry on a product for free, I am appalled at the vehemently negative response to the idea that a champion players autograph might be worth something. So many seemed to say that a lowly pool champions autograph, even on a souvenir wasn't really worth hardly anything, and to compare pool champions with other REAL sports champions like Ivan Rodriguez or Michael Jordan was a joke. For guys who frequent a POOL FORUM, your lack of respect and esteem and the low value you assign to the players in our game is unbelievable to me. WELL, I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY! I believe our players have got as much or more coming as any of the limelighted sports whizzes. I believe our guys signature is worth something. If you don't believe me, try to buy one of my Bugs signed cue balls. As for how far off base my idea is, just go to Google, like I did, and search for "autograph signings." This is what came up right away:


I'm sick of pool players being thought of as second-class citizens in the world of sports. In my eyes Bugs Rucker deserves as much respect as Joe Louis or Mohammed Ali. When somebody like Mickey Mantle is all washed up at 31yrs old, and then you have someone like Incardona still dabbing it at 60 plus, why should pool players ever have to sit in the back of the room?

The Beard

I don't think you understand the gist of what we are saying. Noone is denying that pro pool players deserve respect IMO i think they deserve more than the regular professionals because they are literally grinding it out by playing as a pro. In no other sport do top tier professionals make as little money as pool players do. It takes a lot of guts (or rich girlfriend or food stamps) for pros to try to play pool for a living, mainly because it's so hard to do. Imagine Tiger Woods having to hustle retired doctors and lawyers inbetween tournerments, or pro basketball players playing 1on1 streetball for money.

The issue is that they simply aren't worth the money. Yes you "DONT FEEL THAT WAY". I think i can confidently say noone on this fourm would disagree with you. But you cannot take such a fringe sport as pool, thats on the brink of dying on a professional level and compare it to established sports such as golf, basketball and so on.

Here's another way of looking at it. Take any non-sports fan. He still knows and would value autographs from most of the top names in their respective fields. I'm pretty sure people would be interested in an autograph of Tom Brady even if they hate football. I'd be willing to bet people would pay money for merchandised autographs from atheletes just because they are famous, not because they are die hard fans.

Pool on the other hand has nothing but die hard fans. Out of the average poolhall that most ppl frequent... what percentage of people playing actually know what they are doing? What percentage of people actually know about enligsh, squirt, side-spin.. not that many.

You ask anyone outside of a poolhall to name one pool player that they know aside from the 5 you always see on TV. You think the avg ball banger who plays pool with his friends once a week cares at all about the so called professionals in this sport?

Therefore, the only people that would actually care enough to get autographs from the pros would be the die hard fans who actually show up to the tourneys and throughly enjoy the game enough to watch and play. And the only thing you would do is chase away the die hard fans.

 

[ioCross]

I aint trying to fix anything. I'm trying to make a buck for myself and the players, and in the process, elevate the value of a champion pool player.


the Beard

It just sounds like you're trying to make money off the players without having to actually do anything.

How about giving 100% of the proceeds to the pro's autograph thats signed?

Of course not, because without you making a buck, it's not worth it for you.

So much for "elevating the value of a champion player".

I'm sorry if this comes off sounding rude, but it really does seem like you're trying to hustle a buck off the fans at their expense without you doing any work.

 

[freddy the beard]

Further clarification

You've got a point for sure, Beard. That display case was not there when Bugs signed the ball. My son bought it to display the ball in our game room so obviously the ball has great value to my son and probably others too especially now since the mighty Bugs is no longer with us, God rest his soul.

I, like Terry, am very glad you further explained your point. I would hate to see my son walk up to Buddy, wearing a Bank On Brother shirt and ask him to autograph his shirt and Buddy tell him he can't because Freddie sells those shirts with his autograph already on them. Could that scenario occur?

Since I have had to spend so many threads reexplaining myself, I neglected, because I erroneously thought it was obvious, to say just exactly what I was intending to feature for collectors to buy. I intend to offer signed cueballs, like the ones I showed in the attachment to my post, with a (not shown) laser inscribed monogram for $20 ea. The plastic trophy case is optional and costs another $5. I am going to try and wheedle a deal with cue makers to send me a bunch of cues at DCC to be signed and sent back to them for a not yet negotiated price. I now see it was a big mistake to let the forum in on the ground floor of my developing idea before it was completely fleshed out. (Bill, check your mailbox for a preview surprise.)

the Beard