Quality life of professional players

[PaulieB]

To try to get back on topic ...

An average of $120k/year earnings if you are one of the top 10-15 players in the world with travel costs and living expenses subtracted from that is just horrible. Not to mention the fact that there isn't much of a health plan or a retirement plan/pension/401k that comes with pool, heh. I love the folks that do what they do for the love of this sport but I think most people realize that getting just about any union job with a pension plan is a way more reasonable and stable way of living life and supporting a family.

Practice your jump shots, not your draw shots ... if you want to get rich, go into basketball or football or something. If you are a couch potato like me, go into Texas Hold'Em.

 

[JCIN]

To try to get back on topic ...

An average of $120k/year earnings if you are one of the top 10-15 players in the world with travel costs and living expenses subtracted from that is just horrible. Not to mention the fact that there isn't much of a health plan or a retirement plan/pension/401k that comes with pool, heh. I love the folks that do what they do for the love of this sport but I think most people realize that getting just about any union job with a pension plan is a way more reasonable and stable way of living life and supporting a family.

Practice your jump shots, not your draw shots ... if you want to get rich, go into basketball or football or something. If you are a couch potato like me, go into Texas Hold'Em.

The thing is I have never ever heard one single solitary person tell someone in a pool room "You should be a pro player. There is money and security in it."

It's no secret to the people who come around the tournaments for just a little while what the real deal is. And this is before the internets. Now its real easy to find out a decent range of whats possible with a little searching.

Lot's of guys seem to fall into the pro game more than anything else. They are the best player around when they are young. They do the road. Then they end up in the tournaments. Its an exciting life with its perks. Like everything in life with the good comes the bad. Like many young men they do not think about what things they will want when they are 45.

I really don't have a lot of time for certain pro players claiming how hard it is and pool pays nothing when I see them play all week to win $2000 in a tournament and go lose it all in 15 minutes on a dice table.

I know one player who has won probably as much as anyone except Efren over the last 6 or 7 years and he complains constantly about no money in pool. I told him at dinner one night " On more than one occasion you have won more in one tournament than many people I know make in a year. You gamble it away on the casino and sports. It wouldn't matter if you won a million. You would just bet higher and be just as broke. It might just take a little longer. Its not what you make its what you do with it." He actually agreed. Reluctantly.

Shane will be able to retire when he is 40 if he wants. He is smart with his money. It is possible if you are a top player and are responsible with your money.

Everybody b!tches. Whether its not enough money or working so hard you don't have time to enjoy what you make. End of the day we all have the power to change what we don't like. Most people just never get that fed up and would rather do what they are doing and keep b!tching than change anything. This goes for the world not just pool.

PS. I was UAW for Ford. The union thing aint all its cracked up be unless you are have a very high demand skilled trade.

 

[real bartram]

I just don't know where you see all these organizations sucking the blood out of players. People who have to make a living playing pool are some world-class bloodsuckers. Frankly in a fair fight i'd take a road player over dracula anytime. What the heck are you talking about regarding whose sucking whose blood.

mlalm you really dont ever say anything good
about pool players.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I have to say that I do not envy a pro pool players lifestyle and would not trade mine for it. I am comfortable, have a good home life with a beautiful girl and kids. Do I wish I could just skip town whenever I feel like it and go running around recklessly, sure sometimes I do as I am young but I certainly am not thinking a pro pool player is lucky to have his life the way it is. I do admire the talent and that they are willing to sacrifice things that Joe 9-5 has and takes for granted sometimes too.

I hope the pool economy somehow gets better but it will take money and the right person to organize it getting sponsors on board and if you do not act right and represent the game professionally then you get barred. Pool was a tough sell before the depression (we are in one whether you believe it or not) and it will be sometime before pool gets the help it needs unless one of us junkies hits the lotto and has a plan, sad that is what it probably will take.

To those who love the game just keep contributing and doing what you can and to the players just keep playing because its obvious you love the game. To those who do not respect pool and the players just GTFO! :thumbup:

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

If you love pool you do not have to make it your profession. In the US at least it is best considered a pleasurable diversion form the workaday world, not a means of supporting yourself and family. I cannot think of any pro players or hustlers who ever retired comfortably at a decent age due to their winnings. Greenleaf, one the best ever, was buried in a paupers grave. Mosconi worked into his 80's. Fats died broke. So did UJ and many others.

Sure, if you are among the best five players in the country you can earn a living. But it will take you years to find out if you are there and then you are still not going to get rich. Now, if never having to work a 9-5 job is important to you, more important than basic creature comforts like a house and a family, go on and give it a go. But if life security is important to you, get a career that pays a salary and use your vacation time to play in pro events. Anyone can play in most of them, just post your entry fee and screw your cue together. No qualifications required. Pool is a very fun pastime until you have to win the next game to eat the next day.

Take a look around. Most of the top pros have other sources of income. Archer owns a poolroom. Varner has had his billiard supply biz for many years. And on and on.

 

[sydbarret]

mlalm you really dont ever say anything good
about pool players.

Was just thinking the same thing.

 

[justnum]

The most interesting is to see all the recent productions being made about pool players. Some people with a camera and a website think they are producers.

What is unusual is when players surrender rights to be filmed via a tournament director. If players are asked for consent it is different.

But if someone just sticks a camera in your face and then tries to sell it off as a production that is something that touches on the borderlines of extreme producer fan. Fan based content is popular in many industries.

But distributing and selling production of enhanced fan based content is another thing. A borderline issue of regulation.

Case Example: The IPT players signed up for a tournament, it happened to be a recorded event, like many tournaments. The prize money didn't pay on time for an IPT event. Subsequent events had difficulties. However the entire time the IPT was able to generate income from video sales.

Problem: Players were suffering financial hardships while a producer was collecting. The problem is not as extreme as in other industries but the exposure of this problem in this sport makes it important because these are critical moments deciding an official response by the community.

Point of thread: Are players asked consent to be filmed for productions made to be sold? Should there be a requirement?

Are players involved in productions that are sold to the general public, like fans, due royalties?

Selling to a major sports network is different then selling to high school timmy and cheerleader sally. Most of the previous productions of billiards tournaments were sold to sports networks. Currently several productions are being sold directly to fans.

Situation: Can a player involved in the production of a pool video collect income from the sales of the production to fans? Is it different then when a song is played on the radio and the rights holder does not get paid?

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Lucky man

I sell pool matches online. I live in a 400 sq ft. apartment in the shithole part of Las Vegas, with no health insurance, drive an 11 year old car and after three years in the uber-lucrative pool match selling business I am about $50K in debt.

I know some other people in the pool production business too. Most are living the baller life like me.

Its a glamourous life.

I've tried being reasonable with you and explaing the very basics of how things really work in this country buts it clear to me you are simply clueless and will not reality interrupt your little fantasy about things should be.

As for pool being a game and fun, for the players and everyone involved with the game it's a choice. I used to make decent money for where I lived. Great benefits.I was miserable though. Hated life. Now I'm broke, 30 seconds from financial disaster, completely screwed if I get hurt but 99 days out of a 100 I love what I do. For me and many of the players and people in the industry that is a fair trade. But I don't think you know that because I don't think you actually know any players or industry people beyond what you read on the internet.

You really don't know shit about pool.

A man who loves his job will never work a day of his life! Your a lucky man!

 

[Ktown D]

The most interesting is to see all the recent productions being made about pool players. Some people with a camera and a website think they are producers.

What is unusual is when players surrender rights to be filmed via a tournament director. If players are asked for consent it is different.

But if someone just sticks a camera in your face and then tries to sell it off as a production that is something that touches on the borderlines of extreme producer fan. Fan based content is popular in many industries.

But distributing and selling production of enhanced fan based content is another thing. A borderline issue of regulation.

Case Example: The IPT players signed up for a tournament, it happened to be a recorded event, like many tournaments. The prize money didn't pay on time for an IPT event. Subsequent events had difficulties. However the entire time the IPT was able to generate income from video sales.

Problem: Players were suffering financial hardships while a producer was collecting. The problem is not as extreme as in other industries but the exposure of this problem in this sport makes it important because these are critical moments deciding an official response by the community.

Point of thread: Are players asked consent to be filmed for productions made to be sold? Should there be a requirement?

Are players involved in productions that are sold to the general public, like fans, due royalties?

Selling to a major sports network is different then selling to high school timmy and cheerleader sally. Most of the previous productions of billiards tournaments were sold to sports networks. Currently several productions are being sold directly to fans.

Situation: Can a player involved in the production of a pool video collect income from the sales of the production to fans? Is it different then when a song is played on the radio and the rights holder does not get paid?

Who are all of these "extreme" producers you are referring to?

The 2 main video producers are TAR and Accustats, both pay royalties to the players from the sales of DVD's, TAR does on PPV's as well IIRC. I am not certain how Accustats compensates players from PPV's or even if they do but all matches have to be filmed to be able to be produced, marketed and then sold. I assume the revenues from the PPV help offset the overhead of them actually setting up and being able to record the matches for sale.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Whatever anyone says the sad truth remains:

Being a world champion at Pool does not guarantee you anything special financially, despite the hard work you do to get there.
That does not stand for champions in those sports where millions play and enjoy the sport.

Being just under a world champion level, still a magnificent player, still working hard to get there, guarantees you absolutely nothing..

Tournament directors and organizers/ federation members make much more than the champions in long run..

So players should not play pool for a living but organizers have the "right" to make a living after the perfomance of great players? Is this right?
Tournament directors just fill in the gap of work other people won't do or don't have time to do since they have a regular job or they practice real hard to perfect their game. It's an easy task for them considering that most of the real work is done by the players..

Players do not gother together to demand more and this goes on forever..
World champions sell themselves too cheap and when they realize they have accomplished nothing it's too late..

If only people in charge had the vision of working harder about promoting the game young people would play more since they would have something to look up to. They would know that "making it" would really offer them something..
Do you think so many kids would play basketball if they knew that getting to the NBA which needs hard work would offer them nothing? If they watched the promoters getting everything from the players sweat and the best players of the world getting nothing special?
I think not..

 

[Nostroke]

Case Example: The IPT players signed up for a tournament, it happened to be a recorded event, like many tournaments. The prize money didn't pay on time for an IPT event. Subsequent events had difficulties. However the entire time the IPT was able to generate income from video sales.

Problem: Players were suffering financial hardships while a producer was collecting.

Selling to a major sports network is different then selling to high school timmy and cheerleader sally. Most of the previous productions of billiards tournaments were sold to sports networks. Currently several productions are being sold directly to fans.

Situation: Can a player involved in the production of a pool video collect income from the sales of the production to fans? Is it different then when a song is played on the radio and the rights holder does not get paid?

How much do you think they were collecting in video fees? Id have to think next to nothing.

I dont think ESPN has paid for a pool production in 25 years. You think Versus paid for that IPT stuff-No way.

 

[justnum]

How much do you think they were collecting in video fees? Id have to think next to nothing.

I dont think ESPN has paid for a pool production in 25 years. You think Versus paid for that IPT stuff-No way.

The IPT videos are still profitable because the website is still selling subscriptions. If the company was losing money they'd probably close it down. Its been about 5 years since a new IPT production, most companies would have shutdown the website if they weren't making money.

As for the specifics the IPT does target an international audience, all the known players were known to be at the event. How large could the underground pool community be? I need more data for an estimate. It is an interesting problem that I need to prepare for.

KT's ability to sell is proven by his book record. Kevin Trudeau the author/promoter is a member of a newspaper's best seller list, a newspaper from New York. That is about as good an estimate I can give. The pool community is larger than the book community for that specific item.

He did payout the prize money, so at least he is making the sum of the prize money plus whatever his expenses were as a low estimate. As a high estimate imagine income as his best selling book sold to distributors each continent.

 

[Aaron_S]

The IPT videos are still profitable because the website is still selling subscriptions. If the company was losing money they'd probably close it down. Its been about 5 years since a new IPT production, most companies would have shutdown the website if they weren't making money.

They are probably just trying to recoup some of what they lost while the IPT was in full swing. Keeping the website up is an inexpensive way to market their videos, but I would suspect that the money they are making is hailstones to icebergs compared to what they initially invested.

Aaron

 

[Nostroke]

The IPT videos are still profitable because the website is still selling subscriptions. If the company was losing money they'd probably close it down. Its been about 5 years since a new IPT production, most companies would have shutdown the website if they weren't making money.

As for the specifics the IPT does target an international audience, all the known players were known to be at the event. How large could the underground pool community be? I need more data for an estimate. It is an interesting problem that I need to prepare for.

KT's ability to sell is proven by his book record. Kevin Trudeau the author/promoter is a member of a newspaper's best seller list, a newspaper from New York. That is about as good an estimate I can give. The pool community is larger than the book community for that specific item.

He did payout the prize money, so at least he is making the sum of the prize money plus whatever his expenses were as a low estimate. As a high estimate imagine income as his best selling book sold to distributors each continent.

He only sold books (self published) as a result of buying time on hundreds of TV stations/networks and then lying his ass off about the contents.

As far as the subscriptions on the IPT site-AZB has the largest pool community of pool enthusiasts.

WHO out there is paying for the IPT subscription? Who did pay once and for how long?

 

[justnum]

He only sold books (self published) as a result of buying time on hundreds of TV stations/networks and then lying his ass off about the contents.

As far as the subscriptions on the IPT site-AZB has the largest pool community of pool enthusiasts.

WHO out there is paying for the IPT subscription? Who did pay once and for how long?

You answered that question he bought out network time to promote to late-late night viewers. How many bangers that don't get out do you think there are? AZ seems to have bangers that actually go to events and socialize. But the people he sells to are not those types of people.

 

[JamisonNeu]

Pool has been very good to me over the years. I learned years ago that I would make millions of friends, and thousands of dollars. I am in no way rich to say that my bank statement isn't growing off interest. I am rich in so many other ways. I can credit pool for my vast success in life too. It taught me all the things I need to know about myself to do anything else I want.

Pool is the best game on the planet because of the variety of people that can play not because of the money. It can be played and won by a guy like Danny Basavich or a guy like Johnny Archer, It can be played by crazy people poor people rich people and dumb people...(me included) It can be played by a child of 4 till he dies at 90 and it has for over a 1000 years.


(people like to think they are in charge, but it is time that is in charge)

My lifestyle over the years has been crazy to say the least. One day I'll be staying in a hotel that cost $1800 a night, life size statues of Cesar, waterfalls filling the hot tub...the next day I'll be in the econo lodge paying $25 everything smells of curry, but the people are nicer here than the snooty place so just fine by me.

I would never trade the life I have lived for security in a world that doesnt offer it... I may have not saved too much paper, but man did I have fun. I have wonderful sponsors that pay me for my time, and I make about what someone with my education would if I worked 40 hrs a week...

I could go for more (move to the heart of pool), but really a family in storage isn't for most people. Some people think that it is important to have big cars and fancy houses, but I never really cared about that one time in my life.. Pool can be great thing or it can be horrible obsession it is what you make it.

I would never tell anyone not to make it a living, and I would never tell anyone that they should make it a living. Good Luck is probably what I would say...

 

[mlalum]

mlalm you really dont ever say anything good
about pool players.

Well you need to read more carefully I guess.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=215733&highlight=susan+williams

What's it to you anyway. You're not even a pool player anymore. I have a lot of respect for some pool players just not any of those that think they deserve a good living because they thought pool was an easy life and now are complaining about it while they try to hustle others out of their money.

For the record in 2010 I donated more than $10K to amatuer players so they could attend tournaments, to free Internet streamers so they could stream, bankrolling tournaments for players, etc. While doing that I got to see a lot of behavior from "professional'' pool players. I have not been impressed but it does not stop me from helping those that i feel deserve it. I spent several of my formative years in the pool room and 40 years later not a lot has changed.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

This is a list of the last 10 years of top tournament players and their winnings. It does not include any expences or gambling winnings or losses.

It is of note, that only one year in the last 10 does the top player NOT make 6 figures in winnings.

Also included is the IPT years (2005 and 2006) payouts. In 2006 the top 10 players all made in the 6 figure range.

Professional pool players (at least the top 10) have enjoyed 10 years of tournament money, enough to make a decent living.

I wonder what the next ten years will bring?

2010 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2010 Prize Money
Darren Appleton $118,494
Efren Reyes $93,709
Mika Immonen $92,068

2009 top 3 and money won
Mika Immonen $238,320
Ralf Souquet $101,037
Shane Van Boening $90,975

2008 top 3 and mony won
Player Name 2008 Prize Money
Ralf Souquet $171,852
Mika Immonen $149,582
Shane Van Boening $147,420

2007 top 3 and money won
Daryl Peach $123,000
Shane Van Boening $116,307
Niels Feijen $113,665

2006 top 10 and money won IPT YEAR
Efren Reyes $644,960
Thorsten Hohmann $394,025
Ralf Souquet $219,350
Rodney Morris $214,950
Dennis Orcollo $202,500
Ronnie Alcano $161,754
Mika Immonen $158,450
Johnny Archer $137,580
Marlon Manalo $112,271
Francisco Bustamante $108,495
Corey Deuel $101,250

2005 top 10 and money won IPT YEAR
Player Name 2005 Prize Money
Efren Reyes $279,169
Mike Sigel $250,000
Marlon Manalo $199,500
Francisco Bustamante $140,272
Chia-Ching Wu $109,500
Johnny Archer $100,104
Thorsten Hohmann $96,635
Santos Sambajon $89,669
Corey Deuel $87,482
Mika Immonen $83,642

2004 top 3 and money won
Efren Reyes $124,150
Alex Pagulayan $118,183
Rodney Morris $88,537

2003 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2003 Prize Money
Johnny Archer $131,460
Francisco Bustamante $118,975
Efren Reyes $106,050
Alex Pagulayan $94,513

2002 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2002 Prize Money
Efren Reyes $126,200
Francisco Bustamante $122,800
Earl Strickland $110,200

2001 top 3 and money won
Efren Reyes $215,362
Corey Deuel $102,163
Mika Immonen $99,919

2000 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2000 Prize Money
Earl Strickland $91,105
Efren Reyes $79,930
Fong-Pang Chao $70,800

 

[pwd72s]

The thing is I have never ever heard one single solitary person tell someone in a pool room "You should be a pro player. There is money in it."

Shane will be able to retire when he is 40 if he wants. He is smart with his money. It is possible if you are a top player and are responsible with your money.

Self management of money is a skill that can be self taught. There are forums on just this.
http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/asp/AllConv.asp?forumId=F100000015

Nobody cares more about managing your money than you should. In the pool world, most folks you meet are interested in making your money their money.

(edit) Yep...I'm just a banger who socializes. Don't try to get me in a money game...it ain't gonna happen.
One book I'd highly recommend for someone interested in learning the basics of money management and investing:

The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing
by Taylor Larimore, Mel Lindauer, and Michael LeBoeuf

That book should get you started into doing more reading on your own.

"control your destiny or somebody else will." -Jack Welch

No sales pitch here....just sayin' I was able to retire at age 48 by saving & investing. I'm no genius...only a high school degree. But I am a voracious reader who was fortunate enough to marry a like minded woman. It is my wife who manages our portfolio these days, and she does so well.

Nobody can help the player who wins then gambles it away. Perhaps they feel winning is too easy so they throw the money away.

 

[justnum]

This is a list of the last 10 years of top tournament players and their winnings. It does not include any expences or gambling winnings or losses.

It is of note, that only one year in the last 10 does the top player NOT make 6 figures in winnings.

Also included is the IPT years (2005 and 2006) payouts. In 2006 the top 10 players all made in the 6 figure range.

Professional pool players (at least the top 10) have enjoyed 10 years of tournament money, enough to make a decent living.

I wonder what the next ten years will bring?

2010 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2010 Prize Money
Darren Appleton $118,494
Efren Reyes $93,709
Mika Immonen $92,068

2009 top 3 and money won
Mika Immonen $238,320
Ralf Souquet $101,037
Shane Van Boening $90,975

2008 top 3 and mony won
Player Name 2008 Prize Money
Ralf Souquet $171,852
Mika Immonen $149,582
Shane Van Boening $147,420

2007 top 3 and money won
Daryl Peach $123,000
Shane Van Boening $116,307
Niels Feijen $113,665

2006 top 10 and money won IPT YEAR
Efren Reyes $644,960
Thorsten Hohmann $394,025
Ralf Souquet $219,350
Rodney Morris $214,950
Dennis Orcollo $202,500
Ronnie Alcano $161,754
Mika Immonen $158,450
Johnny Archer $137,580
Marlon Manalo $112,271
Francisco Bustamante $108,495
Corey Deuel $101,250

2005 top 10 and money won IPT YEAR
Player Name 2005 Prize Money
Efren Reyes $279,169
Mike Sigel $250,000
Marlon Manalo $199,500
Francisco Bustamante $140,272
Chia-Ching Wu $109,500
Johnny Archer $100,104
Thorsten Hohmann $96,635
Santos Sambajon $89,669
Corey Deuel $87,482
Mika Immonen $83,642

2004 top 3 and money won
Efren Reyes $124,150
Alex Pagulayan $118,183
Rodney Morris $88,537

2003 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2003 Prize Money
Johnny Archer $131,460
Francisco Bustamante $118,975
Efren Reyes $106,050
Alex Pagulayan $94,513

2002 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2002 Prize Money
Efren Reyes $126,200
Francisco Bustamante $122,800
Earl Strickland $110,200

2001 top 3 and money won
Efren Reyes $215,362
Corey Deuel $102,163
Mika Immonen $99,919

2000 top 3 and money won
Player Name 2000 Prize Money
Earl Strickland $91,105
Efren Reyes $79,930
Fong-Pang Chao $70,800

The IPT years or low work high payout events are classic.

A big roller like KT is something few can emulate well. The knockoffs follow in smaller and cheaper styles. They don't want to risk it for the quick payoff like KT, such is the beginning of competition wars. The first batch of imitators will look good since everyone is coming off the IPT high. Just a matter of time till they find someone to pony around.