Ronnie Wiseman stiff's me for $3900

[JamieMcWhorter]

His deal was with Wiseman not Scott and the other guy, so Wiseman owes him the money. If Wiseman got stiffed by Scott and Justin then thats his problem. This is another example of why pool wont be moving to the the bigtime anytime soon. When you have pro pool players stiffing people, and Pro's like Corey Duel who set their buddy up (Johnny Archer) to play a golf hustler..and the hustler beat Johnny out of 90 grand!! Where I come from guys doing stuff like this would get a beating ...at least a really good beating and then they would know whats up. Try doing this stuff on the south side of Boston. Ronnie wouldnt have made it out of the pool room because everybody in the room would have been on him.

UNLESS YOU KNOW ALL THE FACTS YOU SHOULDNT POST ANYTHING THIS DUMB...YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT JOHNNY HAD ALREADY BEAT THE SAME GUY FOR EITHER 15K OR 20 K THEN THEY PLAYED AND BET EITHER 50K OR 60K...AND THE GUY SHOT LIKE 67 AT DORAL AND JOHNNY SHOT LIKE 82.....COREY DIDNT EVEN HAVE THAT MUCH OF THE BET WHEN THEY PLAYED THE 2ND TIME...AARON CZETLI WAS THE BIG BETTER COREYS FRIEND...Johnny is 1-1 playing the guy getting robbed and having someone beat up is alittle strong...They lost the 15k or 20k months before Doral so how did they know Johnny would even bet 50k and they could get winner so they didnt hustle him....Plus I know for a fact Johnny's bet was chopped up many ways....Guy wins 20 k nobody says anything bout him robbing someone bet then he loses 50k and he got screwed grow up thats why its gambling...Didnt think he got hustled when he won 20k did he?

 

[corvette1340]

UNLESS YOU KNOW ALL THE FACTS YOU SHOULDNT POST ANYTHING THIS DUMB...YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT JOHNNY HAD ALREADY BEAT THE SAME GUY FOR EITHER 15K OR 20 K THEN THEY PLAYED AND BET EITHER 50K OR 60K...AND THE GUY SHOT LIKE 67 AT DORAL AND JOHNNY SHOT LIKE 82.....COREY DIDNT EVEN HAVE THAT MUCH OF THE BET WHEN THEY PLAYED THE 2ND TIME...AARON CZETLI WAS THE BIG BETTER COREYS FRIEND...Johnny is 1-1 playing the guy getting robbed and having someone beat up is alittle strong...They lost the 15k or 20k months before Doral so how did they know Johnny would even bet 50k and they could get winner so they didnt hustle him....Plus I know for a fact Johnny's bet was chopped up many ways....Guy wins 20 k nobody says anything bout him robbing someone bet then he loses 50k and he got screwed grow up thats why its gambling...Didnt think he got hustled when he won 20k did he?

I'm gonna have to agree with Jamie on this one (that's a first). The fact that the guy laid it down so good and had the balls to lose 15 or 20K is amazing in itself. Johnny has been gambling all his life and use to hustle every bar from here to California and back for years and years. If he allowed himself to get hustled by these guys then so be it.

I see nothing wrong with laying down to someone if you see a bigger score in the future. I've done it many times on the golf course myself. The thing is that when you do that you have no guarantee that you can get the guy down again or make him bet bigger if any at all. It is a risk just like any gamble and that's why Jack Cooney is reveled as the best of all times at doing this.

I've heard stories of him taking up roots in a town for months and months while losing small amounts consistently only to eventually take the entire town off for thousands and thousands in the end.

Hustling someone is a totally different animal than shooting someone an air barrel. It may not be the most morally correct thing to do, but anyone that gambles runs that risk. It is definitely not stealing from someone like what Ronnie is doing and has done many times apparently.

 

[watchez]

How long ago was this? If I won 20K and then the guy came back and shoots a 67 to beat me out of $60k, I would feel like I got hustled.

When you are hustling you are also gambling. Didn't Cooney join a golf course once to beat a guy out of a lot of money playing pool. How did he know that he was going to win all that money and get down with the guy- he didn't, he just gambled in his hustle that he would.

--seems me and corvette were thinking the same thing as we typed a reply.

 

[alstl]

If I've learned anything over the years hanging out in casinos and poolrooms, it's this. WHEN THERE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND MONEY INVOLVED, BE CAREFUL! Got it?

The bigger the money, the more care you should use. I learned a couple of lessons the hard way too. And I've had a few close calls as well, but I had my guard up and ducked the thieves. You can read all about it in my book.

I never minded playing for big money ($500-1,000) a game in my poolroom. I was in control of that environment and knew that I didn't have to worry about getting robbed. Stiffed maybe, if I was careless.

When I got involved for big money somewhere else, I ALWAYS had someone with me who I could trust and depend on. One big guy or a guy who is armed and dangerous will discourage all but the most brazen of thieves. I am not ashamed to admit that most of the time I was on the road, I carried a weapon. I didn't mind losing my money gambling, I just didn't want to get robbed and/or hurt.

Bottom line, you must look out for yourself if you have chosen to gamble for a living. To be too trusting is to be a fool. I'm not demeaning anyone here. I have been fooled myself, more than once. And I have put some Karma on a few people too. I am a super nice guy, and do my best to get along with everyone. But if someone tries to rob me, they become fair game for whatever I can do to them. And that's how I feel about that.

So when the feds raided Johnston City and found all those guns that people had ditched in trash cans and under the bleachers did one of the guns belong to a guy with a toupee?

On the topic of "collection agents" one of the more famous ones in St Louis was Sonny Liston. Many people are of the opinion that what happened in the ring with Ali was set up, and if the people who Sonny worked for had sent him to collect money from Ali, Ali would have either payed or got his butt kicked.

 

[jay helfert]

So when the feds raided Johnston City and found all those guns that people had ditched in trash cans and under the bleachers did one of the guns belong to a guy with a toupee?

On the topic of "collection agents" one of the more famous ones in St Louis was Sonny Liston. Many people are of the opinion that what happened in the ring with Ali was set up, and if the people who Sonny worked for had sent him to collect money from Ali, Ali would have either payed or got his butt kicked.

I missed that "party", thank God! Sonny did dump the first fight to the "phantom" punch.

 

[JamieMcWhorter]

How long ago was this? If I won 20K and then the guy came back and shoots a 67 to beat me out of $60k, I would feel like I got hustled.

When you are hustling you are also gambling. Didn't Cooney join a golf course once to beat a guy out of a lot of money playing pool. How did he know that he was going to win all that money and get down with the guy- he didn't, he just gambled in his hustle that he would.

--seems me and corvette were thinking the same thing as we typed a reply.

Fact is they didnt hustle Johnny...Johnny flat out beat the guy when they blew 15k or 20k..Johnny shot like 74 on a super tight course and the other guy shot a bad round and flat out just got beat..In the beginning they might have laid it down about who the guy was but not whent they went off..Fact is the people involved really couldnt afford to dump big and then hope to come back and bet super high they didnt have that kind of bankroll plus how did they know Johnny would bet that high next time. Answer they didnt...

Fact is if I am gambling that high with someone I might do a background check and ask for ID to make sure who I am playing and what their occupation is..With this story if Johnny would have played a good round at Doral and won then he wouldnt have complained afterwards but because the guy played so good he felt like he got betrayed by everyone involved..Funniest thing about that whole ordeal was how can you bet 50k or even 10k like Corey , Aaron and Johnny had been and really felt like you were friends and not excpect them to try and trap you with a better player...and then afterwards say how could you do that to me haha hilarious

 

[Robertduke]

I missed that "party", thank God! Sonny did dump the first fight to the "phantom" punch.

Liston dumped the second fight.. Got his ass whooped the first one.. =)

 

[jimmyg]

I missed that "party", thank God! Sonny did dump the first fight to the "phantom" punch.

It did look that way, didn't it.

The only question in my mind was, why then did Liston have the chemicals put on his glove and try to temporarily blind Ali in the earlier rounds of the same fight if he intended on laying down? The laying down loses it's logic because the chemicals make it appear as though he was desperately trying to win at any cost.

Jim

 

[fozzdich]

having bred dogs for a long time it's obvious that, given a choice, they won't crapp where they play--------------makes you wonder about wiseman, doesn't it?

 

[Robertduke]

It did look that way, didn't it.

The only question in my mind was, why then did Liston have the chemicals put on his glove and try to temporarily blind Ali in the earlier rounds of the same fight if he intended on laying down? The laying down loses it's logic because the chemicals make it appear as though he was desperately trying to win at any cost.

Jim

2 Different Fights... The chemical fight was in the first fight Ali goes back to the corner and tells his trainer to cut the gloves off.. His trainer says no Get in there and run.. Haha.. The phantom punch happend in the first round of the second fight.. Which Ali claimed to learn the punch from the legendary Jack Johnson.. :wink:

 

[jimmyg]

2 Different Fights... The chemical fight was in the first fight Ali goes back to the corner and tells his trainer to cut the gloves off.. His trainer says no Get in there and run.. Haha.. The phantom punch happend in the first round of the second fight.. Which Ali claimed to learn the punch from the legendary Jack Johnson.. :wink:

Recently watched reruns of both fights, I thought both incidents happened in the first fight. And the second fight is where Liston refused to come out of his corner.

But now I'm a little fuzzy on which happened when!! :frown:

Jim

 

[SJDinPHX]

Liston almost kayoed Clay "accidentally" !

2 Different Fights... The chemical fight was in the first fight Ali goes back to the corner and tells his trainer to cut the gloves off.. His trainer says no Get in there and run.. Haha.. The phantom punch happend in the first round of the second fight.. Which Ali claimed to learn the punch from the legendary Jack Johnson.. :wink:

Robert, Absolutely correct. The dump was the second fight. It was the last time I ever bet on a boxing match. Liston accidently stunned Clay in the first few minutes. Clay (Ali) was flailing wildly when Liston went down
for the count without ever being touched. He almost forgot he was supposed to "tank" in the 1st round.

Dick

PS Thats where the "Big, Bad Guy's had their money, 1st round K.O.

 

[memikey]

Recently watched reruns of both fights, I thought both incidents happened in the first fight. And the second fight is where Liston refused to come out of his corner.

But now I'm a little fuzzy on which happened when!! :frown:

Jim

Real fuzzy jimmy!

I remember clearly as a young boy in Uk getting up in the middle of the night to watch the second fight, going to the kitchen to make some tea and toast and coming back through to the living room to find the fight over, all half a round of it

The first fight had the incident with contamination of his eyes, whether accidental from cuts fluids on Liston's face or something more sinister we'll never know. It was also the fight in which Liston eventually refused to come out for the 7th which was a couple of rounds after the eyes problem for Clay.

 

[memikey]

Robert, Absolutely correct. The dump was the second fight. It was the last time I ever bet on a boxing match. Liston accidently stunned Clay in the first few minutes. Clay (Ali) was flailing wildly when Liston went down
for the count without ever being touched. He almost forgot he was supposed to "tank" in the 1st round.

Dick

PS Thats where the "Big, Bad Guy's had their money, 1st round K.O.

He was about 3/1 (edit) against to win at any time in the fight so it's anybody's guess what huge odds they would have got for him to win in a first round K.O.....a minimum of 66/1 probably:smile:

 

[SJDinPHX]

Real fuzzy jimmy!

I remember clearly as a young boy in Uk getting up in the middle of the night to watch the second fight, going to the kitchen to make some tea and toast and coming back through to the living room to find the fight over, all half a round of it

The first fight had the incident with contamination of his eyes, whether accidental from cuts fluids on Liston's face or something more sinister we'll never know. It was also the fight in which Liston eventually refused to come out for the 7th which was a couple of rounds after the eyes problem for Clay.

JMHO Both fights were tank jobs. Liston was controlled by the mob from day one of his career. The only factor was which round he was supposed to go down in. Liston was so tough, Clay could not have knocked him out with a sledgehammer.

Dick

 

[SJDinPHX]

Back to the real world !

We need to get back on track. We are hi-jacking Shawn's thread.......
Sorry Shawn.

Dick

 

[Nostroke]

Robert, Absolutely correct. The dump was the second fight. It was the last time I ever bet on a boxing match. Liston accidently stunned Clay in the first few minutes. Clay (Ali) was flailing wildly when Liston went down
for the count without ever being touched. He almost forgot he was supposed to "tank" in the 1st round.

Dick

I saw both fights live but in Theaters where they used to have Pay per view so to speak. That KO punch didnt seem like much of a punch. Even Ali stood over him motioning him to get up which speaks to the fact that maybe Ali was not in on the "dump"

One of the fights was in Lewiston, Maine. Back then there was only one Champion and these fights were huge. How it wound up in Lewiston must be a story in itself. I live on the E Coast and in the last forty years I dont think ive heard the city mentioned twice anywhere.

One other interesting thing for conspiracy theorists, Liston died of a drug overdose injection yet everyone around him allegedly says he was scared to death of needles- wouldnt even get a shot from the Doctor.

One other completely off topic comment. I went down to Yankee Stadium to see if i could somehow get in to one of the sold-out Ali/Norton fights. Me and 10,000 others id guess. NO shot at all.

People were so desperate to get in they were actually piling up the wooden horses and trying to climb over the top of the stadium. I didnt see anyone actually make it but it was such a crazy scene i got out of there pretty fast.

 

[JoeyInCali]

It did look that way, didn't it.

The only question in my mind was, why then did Liston have the chemicals put on his glove and try to temporarily blind Ali in the earlier rounds of the same fight if he intended on laying down? The laying down loses it's logic because the chemicals make it appear as though he was desperately trying to win at any cost.

Jim

I think Jay meant the rematch.
Liston laid down on the rematch on a phantom right.
The ref was Jersey Joe Walcott who was so confused and lost count.
Liston got up after rolling and acting. And he started trading with Ali ( just converted to Islam ).
Jersey Joe was told by the alternate counter outside of the ring, Liston was down for the 10-count.
I believe that fight is still the least attended heavyweight title fight.Only 2K+ in the arena watched the fiasco.

 

[TX Poolnut]

"Clay comes out to meet Liston and Liston starts to retreat,
if Liston goes back an inch farther he'll end up in a ringside seat.

Clay swings with a left, Clay swings with a right.
Just look at young Cassius carry the fight.

Liston keeps backing, but there's not enough room.
It's a matter of time until Clay lowers the boom.

Then Clay lands with a right, what a beautiful swing!
And the punch raised the bear clear out of the ring.

Liston still rising and the ref wears a frown,
but he can't start counting until Sonny comes down.

Now Liston disappears from view, the crowd is getting frantic
and our radaring stations have picked him up somewhere over the Atlantic.

Who on Earth thought, when they came to the fight,
that they would witness the launching of a human satellite?

Hence the crowd did not dream, when they laid down their money,
that they would see a total eclipse of Sonny."

-Cassius Clay

 

[The Saw]

I'm gonna have to agree with Jamie on this one (that's a first). The fact that the guy laid it down so good and had the balls to lose 15 or 20K is amazing in itself. Johnny has been gambling all his life and use to hustle every bar from here to California and back for years and years. If he allowed himself to get hustled by these guys then so be it.

I see nothing wrong with laying down to someone if you see a bigger score in the future. I've done it many times on the golf course myself. The thing is that when you do that you have no guarantee that you can get the guy down again or make him bet bigger if any at all. It is a risk just like any gamble and that's why Jack Cooney is reveled as the best of all times at doing this.

I've heard stories of him taking up roots in a town for months and months while losing small amounts consistently only to eventually take the entire town off for thousands and thousands in the end.

Hustling someone is a totally different animal than shooting someone an air barrel. It may not be the most morally correct thing to do, but anyone that gambles runs that risk. It is definitely not stealing from someone like what Ronnie is doing and has done many times apparently.

Nothing truer has ever been said here.... IMO, you nailed it 110%.

The two best centers for higher learning in gambling are a poolroom and a country club. If you have a diploma from each its the equivilent of a Phd...

Saw