Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

Joe_Jaguar · Aug 24, 2010

From reading all the above, what does the players association have to do with this no longer being a ranking event? What is the relation between the BCA choosing the ranking events and the player's group?

RunoutJJ · Aug 24, 2010

If your a Pro or a WORLD CHAMPION!!! Its shouldnt matter who you play!!! Seeding is completely bang out of order.. Say a strong B to low level A player goes to this event (there are a lot) and are the lowest seeded and have to play against Mika or Archer first round!! Sounds to me that the pros want to coast through the earlier rounds to better their odds. I mean so what... They cant beat a top pro like themselves?? Sounds pretty crap IMHO but (from what ive heard) it will always remain a BLIND draw when it comes to the brackets. If you have to play against a top player first round and your not the favorite than i say good luck to you.. And may the pool gods be with you. Same go's to the Pros aswell..

dardusm · Aug 24, 2010

If that is the case of the new players association requiring a tournament to escrow the prize money, I understand their motivation. But, use some common sense, a tournament that has been around as long as Turning Stone without any history of failed payments should be exempt of this requirement. Also, exempting players from certain tournaments could spell disaster for the new association. Especially since there aren't that many tournaments for the pro's to play. This tactic hasn't worked very well in the past. JMHO

oldzilla · Aug 24, 2010

dardusm said:
If that is the case of the new players association requiring a tournament to escrow the prize money, I understand their motivation. But, use some common sense, a tournament that has been around as long as Turning Stone without any history of failed payments should be exempt of this requirement. Also, exempting players from certain tournaments could spell disaster for the new association. Especially since there aren't that many tournaments for the pro's to play. This tactic hasn't worked very well in the past. JMHO

Well said. TS event should be exempt from this kind of treatment.

Target the ones that have had problems !

Players organization could do that very easily, or do they have someone telling them what to do ! lol

But still I say this is all speculation until something official is noted.

azhousepro · Aug 24, 2010

Well, if you ask the players association then they have everything to do with which events are point events because they are telling folks that they will have the points list before the year is out.

If you ask the BCA, the players association has nothing to do with which events are points events.

And the last time I checked, it was the BCA that was the WPA member for the US.

As of right now, the December Turning Stone event is a points event.

Mike

Joe_Jaguar said:
From reading all the above, what does the players association have to do with this no longer being a ranking event? What is the relation between the BCA choosing the ranking events and the player's group?

doitforthegame · Aug 24, 2010

Jam said: LOL! The irony here for the male pros -- sorry, guys -- is that the Turning Stone seems to also enjoy the lady pros competing in their events.

You should have seen them falling all over themselves when Jeanette Lee and Karen Corr were there. Even the pit bosses were coming upstairs to check out their games. It was kind of fun!

The "inside" pool people don't get this. Other than hard core pool fans NO ONE KNOWS who the men pro's are. BUT if people knew Jeanette Lee, Karen Corr, or Allison Fischer (to name a few) were there, they would improve attendance. And they could watch the event free. Wow! Why the excitement? Because they have seen them play on TV.

No Johnny Archer...or Rodney Morris. So what. The event ran before they participated and it will run after. Now as a pool player, I absolutely want to see those guys play. The final match Sunday was awesome.

Jam- what year did Rempe win Turning Stone? Is there a list of past winners somewhere? Even better, the old charts?

nathandumoulin · Aug 24, 2010

AzHousePro said:
Well, if you ask the players association then they have everything to do with which events are point events because they are telling folks that they will have the points list before the year is out.

If you ask the BCA, the players association has nothing to do with which events are points events.

And the last time I checked, it was the BCA that was the WPA member for the US.

As of right now, the December Turning Stone event is a points event.

Mike

Is this fact Mike?

If so, than the question stated in the original post of this thread has been answered, and this controversy will officially throw up the red flags towards the PA (at least in my books).

oldzilla · Aug 24, 2010

doitforthegame said:
Jam said: LOL! The irony here for the male pros -- sorry, guys -- is that the Turning Stone seems to also enjoy the lady pros competing in their events.

You should have seen them falling all over themselves when Jeanette Lee and Karen Corr were there. Even the pit bosses were coming upstairs to check out their games. It was kind of fun!

The "inside" pool people don't get this. Other than hard core pool fans NO ONE KNOWS who the men pro's are. BUT if people knew Jeanette Lee, Karen Corr, or Allison Fischer (to name a few) were there, they would improve attendance. And they could watch the event free. Wow! Why the excitement? Because they have seen them play on TV.

No Johnny Archer...or Rodney Morris. So what. The event ran before they participated and it will run after. Now as a pool player, I absolutely want to see those guys play. The final match Sunday was awesome.

Jam- what year did Rempe win Turning Stone? Is there a list of past winners somewhere? Even better, the old charts?

I don't think Rempe ever won an event at the Stone !

SpiderWebComm · Aug 24, 2010

Pros don't wanna support an event that's put a ton of $$$ in their pocket because of seeding / escrow??? Have fun finding a real job then.

That seeding stuff sounds like such cry baby crap it's unreal. "Please seed me please oh please so my buddy doesn't have a chance to send me packing after round 1---- c'mon seed me pleaaase?!!?!??"

What is a promoter supposed to do when he/she depends on tournament entries, etc, to make up the payouts? So, how/why would they put that into escrow up-front? I can understand escrowing added $ maybe, but not total. Guys like Zuglan do this for fun and to support fellow players. If it became real WORK to comply to "demands" set forth by a few, their response would be obvious. I've never heard of Zuglan stiffing anyone.

Oh lord - pool players are just too stupid to ever make it on their own.

That's why guys like Hopkins, Griffin and the like should be running player associations instead of pool players.

tom mcgonagle · Aug 24, 2010

Another poor start for an organization of pool players.

The money has always been there when it comes to Mike's tournaments. You're biting the hands that are feeding you boys. Go after the dead beats. They're the ones you should be chasing.

As far as seating goes. Look at the top finishers, this year. I think they might have been seated, if there was seating. The cream always comes to the top. The seeding only guarantees they won't meet up in the early rounds. What a shame! Aren't they gamblers at HEART?

Johnnyt · Aug 24, 2010

Just when I thought I heard it all. If this is true that the players ass. is going to boycot this event I hope they can grow more feet because they have run out of feet to shoot themselves in. UNBELIEVABLE. Johnnyt

Georgia Boy · Aug 24, 2010

I have never heard a mention from the Players Association about not being paid at Turning Stone, I don't believe this is the issue, would you rather be paid cash or via an Escrow...............? It would seem more likely that it could be a disagreement between the Players Association and the BCA or about seeding, but even those would seem unlikely to me.

I say lets wait and see what happens in December, my guess would be everyone who's anyone that's available will be there.

nathandumoulin · Aug 24, 2010

The original post has been edited to reflect the information provided by Az's own Jerry & Mike. Both have confirmed that future Turning Stone events have NOT been removed from the BCA rankings.

*hides from the flaming that is about to be directed at the PA* lol

azhousepro · Aug 24, 2010

bfdlad · Aug 24, 2010

Let me tell you a couple of things I have heard from MANY pros about Turning Stone.

1) For a California play for example the expenses to go to this event make it hard to justify based on the payouts.

2) If it were not a ranking event they would not even go. Alot of the pros only go for the points and alot of the time either break even or lose money by attending.

3) if there are no tourneys that want to post the money, or play by the rules they will just go back to gambling with each other to make money.

These are not nessesarily my personal opinion but those of many pro I have spoken to. Please do not include the people I work with on this as I am not saying that is their stance. The yare the ones to tell their feelings on the situation either for or against along with the other pros.

I think Max posts here, John Schmidt, Oscar, Donnie Mills, Bartram etc. Let them post on here and tell their side to the story. Seems to me that someone heard a rumor that began this thread. I have no idea personally if the Players Association have even asked MZ for anything different. Looks like everyone is getting down on the PA without actually knowing if they have done anything at all or their official stand on all this.

I have no steak in this eaither way but just pointing out a couple of things.

cuesmith · Aug 24, 2010

dardusm said:
If that is the case of the new players association requiring a tournament to escrow the prize money, I understand their motivation. But, use some common sense, a tournament that has been around as long as Turning Stone without any history of failed payments should be exempt of this requirement. Also, exempting players from certain tournaments could spell disaster for the new association. Especially since there aren't that many tournaments for the pro's to play. This tactic hasn't worked very well in the past. JMHO

Sounds like shades of Mackey, all over.

JAM · Aug 24, 2010

bfdlad said:
Let me tell you a couple of things I have heard from MANY pros about Turning Stone.

1) For a California play for example the expenses to go to this event make it hard to justify based on the payouts.

2) If it were not a ranking event they would not even go. Alot of the pros only go for the points and alot of the time either break even or lose money by attending.

3) if there are no tourneys that want to post the money, or play by the rules they will just go back to gambling with each other to make money.

These are not nessesarily my personal opinion but those of many pro I have spoken to. Please do not include the people I work with on this as I am not saying that is their stance. The yare the ones to tell their feelings on the situation either for or against along with the other pros.

I think Max posts here, John Schmidt, Oscar, Donnie Mills, Bartram etc. Let them post on here and tell their side to the story. Seems to me that someone heard a rumor that began this thread. I have no idea personally if the Players Association have even asked MZ for anything different. Looks like everyone is getting down on the PA without actually knowing if they have done anything at all or their official stand on all this.

I have no steak in this eaither way but just pointing out a couple of things.

You've made some very valid points and provided some food for thought.

Jason Robichaud · Aug 24, 2010

nathandumoulin said:
I posted the following in another thread. I received a request to start a dedicated thread regarding to the topic in hopes of generating an answer to the question. My post read as follows:

Jason Robichaud suggested that it could be a result of Johhny's players association demanding that prize money be put in holding prior to the event. Can anyone confirm this suspicion?

I was told Zuglan's response to being told that some top players will no longer be attending, but I'll refrain from repeating it.

UPDATE: Az's own Jerry & Mike have both confirmed that future Turning Stone events have NOT been removed from the BCA rankings.

I was just guessing a reason why the event might lose the BCA rankings. I know the new association is looking for prepaid money (they have a good reason based on recent events). The Joss Event though has a great record and pays ASAP. If you read how the BCA determines BCA Rankings on events (Field size, top players etc.), Turning Stone is ranked high in the U.S.

doitforthegame · Aug 24, 2010

Thanks for posting those results AzHousePro!

Bob

nathandumoulin · Aug 24, 2010

bfdlad said:
Seems to me that someone heard a rumor that began this thread. I have no idea personally if the Players Association have even asked MZ for anything different. Looks like everyone is getting down on the PA without actually knowing if they have done anything at all or their official stand on all this.

This is the 3rd comment I've received about starting a rumor from industry personnel.

How is this so? All I've done is inquire why I was told something first hand in hopes of finding an answer. I clearly stated in my first post that any mention of the PA made by others is purely speculation.

Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

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