Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

AtLarge said:
I'm not sure we really know the answer to that, Bob. If you'll look at post #34 of this thread, you'll find the results from all but two of the 15 Turning Stone events. Every one of those events had quite a few top pros present (and, incidentally, only one of those events was won by someone who is not a top pro).
Click to expand...

The first one was invitation only with just the Joss guys and a couple of Zuglan's picks. Though there have been pro's every year, there may not have been as many during the early years.

I am VERY confident, the event will sell out (128 players) and the people will come.

Bob
 
JAM said:
Zuglan wouldn't want the job, most likely, but that's a great idea! :)

I'd say welcome to the forum, pdiddy, since this is your first post, but I see you've been a member since February 2007. :grin:
Click to expand...
Hey Jam. You can say welcome. And thanks for the welcome.
That was my first post. I think Zuglan does a great job. And keeps a tour going in tough times. The only thing he needs to here is Thank you.
 
Atlarge,

Unlike most other major tournaments, success or failure does not hinge on spectator income. Yes, it would be nice to run into Johnny, Rodney, Dennis (wait, swore I would never play him again:rolleyes:) etal. It might also be nice to watch them play each other. But to Mike Zuglan and the Turning Stone, having the top names is not paramount. Having the players and spectators visit the gaming rooms, restaurants, hotel facilties while there, is. Using the Diamond pass while gaming is also appreciated. The TS needs to know the pool people are supporting both the tournament and the facility. Whether the top names show up or not, Mike's events will fill everytime to the 128 player slots allowed. That is the only thing that counts.

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Atlarge,

Unlike most other major tournaments, success or failure does not hinge on spectator income. Yes, it would be nice to run into Johnny, Rodney, Dennis (wait, swore I would never play him again:rolleyes:) etal. It might also be nice to watch them play each other. But to Mike Zuglan and the Turning Stone, having the top names is not paramount. Having the players and spectators visit the gaming rooms, restaurants, hotel facilties while there, is. Using the Diamond pass while gaming is also appreciated. The TS needs to know the pool people are supporting both the tournament and the facility. Whether the top names show up or not, Mike's events will fill everytime to the 128 player slots allowed. That is the only thing that counts.

Lyn
Click to expand...

Lyn, I didn't say the event would fold without the top names. All I really meant in my comment to Bob was that we can't really say for sure what would happen without them, because they have always been there, even in the two early invitationals (events #1 and #3).

And I fully understand that admission is free and that the casino makes their money from gaming, food, lodging, etc. So they need to attract enough people, whether as players or spectators, to spend and lose money outside the tournament room.

You may remember (because you finished 17th - 24th, good job!) that for the second event, in May of 2001, the casino boosted the added money to $50,000, and the event attracted lots of top pros. But the casino apparently wasn't satisfied with their profit (or loss) during that event because the added money has never been that high since then.

I'm just saying we don't know for sure what would happen without the top pros or what would happen if a prerequisite to playing at Turning Stone was playing in a certain number of regular Joss events that year. If only "locals" participated, and spectator attendance fell, would the casino still profit enough to keep adding $20,000? We don't know.
 
I was trying to explain to a casual follower of pool about all this crap going on. He said to me, "Well why don't you just say to the "pro's" if you boycott the Turning Stone tournament, all us spectators will boycott you in future tournaments"
 
I dont know much about the new player group other than what I hear from some of the players involved. My opinion is that for the group to work they must provide services and guarantees as well as demand them.

By that I mean if I were a promoter and a group wanted to dictate certain things to me they would have to offer some things in return. Basically to provide added value to the event in return for providing the things they request.

For example:

Guaranteeing that all the players in that group would show up and play in a group sanctioned event under penalty of suspension or fine if they play in a competing event on the same dates or no show without a reasonable excuse.

Guarantee dates. This is the most valuable commodity an organization would have period. By giving a promoter a guarantee that your players will be there on a set date it frees him/her up to do a lot of things. The importance of this can not be overstated.

That they would all stay in the host venue.

Players would actively promote the event and event sponsors. This is HUGE.

Players would interact with fans before and after matches. No only showing up to matches and jetting out the back when they are done.

If a group can bring value to a promoter and event then it would make a lot of sense to work with that group. If a group only demands things without adding value then it is going to be a short conversation and a short lived group. At the end of the day it is the players who have to play in events to make their living. Most promoters make little to no money doing events. They do it for a lot of the same reasons players play, for the love of it and doing something that they are passionate about. If it is too big a pain in the ass to do an event most people will just walk away. I have in the past and I know others have too.

I dont know anyone in the pool industry living large. The top of the heap live a comfortable life style and work their ass off to do it. It is a very small heap to begin with so getting confrontational with people off the bat is not the way to go IMO. Dont get it twisted and think I am saying that anyone is confrontational now. Just saying that it is a very real possibility in a situation as this and I dont think it would be the best thing.

That said I totally see the players side. They want to improve their lot and make things better. Out of this can come growth for everyone if approached in a reasonable manner. One thing that has hindered some players in the past IMO is an attitude of "Well I may not get payed what is advertised but I am pool player and I have to play. A shot at something is better than nothing" This how shady promoters can get things done and incompetent ones manage to draw players. It is a bad deal for the players all the way around.

I for one would love to see a strong, competent, reliable and active player organization. It would make things better for everyone. That said if a group expects to dictate terms without providing added value it simply will not fly in the current state of pool in this country and create a lot of bad blood. I am very hopeful that the new organization will be of the former model and not the latter.

I know all of the players involved in some form or fashion. To a man I think they are guys just trying to improve their future and make things better for the players. I do not agree with some of the proposed things I have heard mentioned but that does not mean I wouldn't negotiate with them and try to come to a solution that makes everyone happy and in the end that is what will make or break any business arrangement.

We'll just have to wait and see how this iteration of a difficult and troubled tradition of player organizations pans out.
 
JCIN said:
I dont know much about the new player group other than what I hear from some of the players involved. My opinion is that for the group to work they must provide services and guarantees as well as demand them.

By that I mean if I were a promoter and a group wanted to dictate certain things to me they would have to offer some things in return. Basically to provide added value to the event in return for providing the things they request.

For example:

Guaranteeing that all the players in that group would show up and play in a group sanctioned event under penalty of suspension or fine if they play in a competing event on the same dates or no show without a reasonable excuse.

Guarantee dates. This is the most valuable commodity an organization would have period. By giving a promoter a guarantee that your players will be there on a set date it frees him/her up to do a lot of things. The importance of this can not be overstated.

That they would all stay in the host venue.

Players would actively promote the event and event sponsors. This is HUGE.

Players would interact with fans before and after matches. No only showing up to matches and jetting out the back when they are done.

If a group can bring value to a promoter and event then it would make a lot of sense to work with that group. If a group only demands things without adding value then it is going to be a short conversation and a short lived group. At the end of the day it is the players who have to play in events to make their living. Most promoters make little to no money doing events. They do it for a lot of the same reasons players play, for the love of it and doing something that they are passionate about. If it is too big a pain in the ass to do an event most people will just walk away. I have in the past and I know others have too.

I dont know anyone in the pool industry living large. The top of the heap live a comfortable life style and work their ass off to do it. It is a very small heap to begin with so getting confrontational with people off the bat is not the way to go IMO. Dont get it twisted and think I am saying that anyone is confrontational now. Just saying that it is a very real possibility in a situation as this and I dont think it would be the best thing.

That said I totally see the players side. They want to improve their lot and make things better. Out of this can come growth for everyone if approached in a reasonable manner. One thing that has hindered some players in the past IMO is an attitude of "Well I may not get payed what is advertised but I am pool player and I have to play. A shot at something is better than nothing" This how shady promoters can get things done and incompetent ones manage to draw players. It is a bad deal for the players all the way around.

I for one would love to see a strong, competent, reliable and active player organization. It would make things better for everyone. That said if a group expects to dictate terms without providing added value it simply will not fly in the current state of pool in this country and create a lot of bad blood. I am very hopeful that the new organization will be of the former model and not the latter.

I know all of the players involved in some form or fashion. To a man I think they are guys just trying to improve their future and make things better for the players. I do not agree with some of the proposed things I have heard mentioned but that does not mean I wouldn't negotiate with them and try to come to a solution that makes everyone happy and in the end that is what will make or break any business arrangement.

We'll just have to wait and see how this iteration of a difficult and troubled tradition of player organizations pans out.
Click to expand...

Great post!

One thing to add is any players/tour organization has a duty to assist promoters in acquiring sponsorship!
 
If the players have to do all these things for the promotor they're better off voting in a Nick Varner or a Corey Duel as leader and putting on their own tournaments. Or just sign the ship over the the Seminole's and they'll run it. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
If the players have to do all these things for the promotor they're better off voting in a Nick Varner or a Corey Duel as leader and putting on their own tournaments. Or just sign the ship over the the Seminole's and they'll run it. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Well if they put on their own events they can do whatever they want. Which I think is going to be the suggestion they receive from a lot of promoters if they want to demand a lot of stuff without doing anything else.
 
Justin has made a very valid point. The new player's association is all about making demands to promoters about what they want and wanting to change how the tournament has to run to cater to their likings, but have not offered what they will bring to the table to return the favor for the promoters.

S.
 
JCIN said:
I dont know much about the new player group other than what I hear from some of the players involved. My opinion is that for the group to work they must provide services and guarantees as well as demand them.

By that I mean if I were a promoter and a group wanted to dictate certain things to me they would have to offer some things in return. Basically to provide added value to the event in return for providing the things they request.

For example:

Guaranteeing that all the players in that group would show up and play in a group sanctioned event under penalty of suspension or fine if they play in a competing event on the same dates or no show without a reasonable excuse.

Guarantee dates. This is the most valuable commodity an organization would have period. By giving a promoter a guarantee that your players will be there on a set date it frees him/her up to do a lot of things. The importance of this can not be overstated.

That they would all stay in the host venue.

Players would actively promote the event and event sponsors. This is HUGE.

Players would interact with fans before and after matches. No only showing up to matches and jetting out the back when they are done.

If a group can bring value to a promoter and event then it would make a lot of sense to work with that group. If a group only demands things without adding value then it is going to be a short conversation and a short lived group. At the end of the day it is the players who have to play in events to make their living. Most promoters make little to no money doing events. They do it for a lot of the same reasons players play, for the love of it and doing something that they are passionate about. If it is too big a pain in the ass to do an event most people will just walk away. I have in the past and I know others have too.

I dont know anyone in the pool industry living large. The top of the heap live a comfortable life style and work their ass off to do it. It is a very small heap to begin with so getting confrontational with people off the bat is not the way to go IMO. Dont get it twisted and think I am saying that anyone is confrontational now. Just saying that it is a very real possibility in a situation as this and I dont think it would be the best thing.

That said I totally see the players side. They want to improve their lot and make things better. Out of this can come growth for everyone if approached in a reasonable manner. One thing that has hindered some players in the past IMO is an attitude of "Well I may not get payed what is advertised but I am pool player and I have to play. A shot at something is better than nothing" This how shady promoters can get things done and incompetent ones manage to draw players. It is a bad deal for the players all the way around.

I for one would love to see a strong, competent, reliable and active player organization. It would make things better for everyone. That said if a group expects to dictate terms without providing added value it simply will not fly in the current state of pool in this country and create a lot of bad blood. I am very hopeful that the new organization will be of the former model and not the latter.

I know all of the players involved in some form or fashion. To a man I think they are guys just trying to improve their future and make things better for the players. I do not agree with some of the proposed things I have heard mentioned but that does not mean I wouldn't negotiate with them and try to come to a solution that makes everyone happy and in the end that is what will make or break any business arrangement.

We'll just have to wait and see how this iteration of a difficult and troubled tradition of player organizations pans out.
Click to expand...

JCIN
Some great points most of which are very valid, however I think your point about player interaction is different from what I have found. The last tournament we went to was the Gem City in Marietta, GA and we had no difficulty talking to any player we wanted. We spoke with them before after and in some cases during matches, people like, SVB, Corey Duel, Mike Dechaine, Tony Crosby, Alison Fisher, Kelly Fisher, Helena Thornfeldt, Charlie Williams, Rodney Morris, Stevie Moore and many more. Nobody turned away from us, we didn't only talk Pool either, they were all very gracious and really nice people. As an aside my wife just thought Adam Smith was cute as a button and just a really nice young man, always ready to say hi or stop and chat, she just wanted to take him home and feed him a good meal :rolleyes:

They need a product or brand for Pool, look at where Football or Baseball would be with the NFL or MLB. Someone to take hold of it, shake out all the junk and make sponsorship of tournaments a fashionable and worthwile undertaking for sponsors especially outside of the Pool world. Just getting sponsors from within, whatever the situation is a recipe for disaster. If only I were 20 years younger, maybe just maybe I'd be tempted I believe there is an oppurtunity there for someone.
 
Georgia Boy said:
JCIN
Some great points most of which are very valid, however I think your point about player interaction is different from what I have found. The last tournament we went to was the Gem City in Marietta, GA and we had no difficulty talking to any player we wanted. We spoke with them before after and in some cases during matches, people like, SVB, Corey Duel, Mike Dechaine, Tony Crosby, Alison Fisher, Kelly Fisher, Helena Thornfeldt, Charlie Williams, Rodney Morris, Stevie Moore and many more. Nobody turned away from us, we didn't only talk Pool either, they were all very gracious and really nice people. As an aside my wife just thought Adam Smith was cute as a button and just a really nice young man, always ready to say hi or stop and chat, she just wanted to take him home and feed him a good meal :rolleyes:

They need a product or brand for Pool, look at where Football or Baseball would be with the NFL or MLB. Someone to take hold of it, shake out all the junk and make sponsorship of tournaments a fashionable and worthwile undertaking for sponsors especially outside of the Pool world. Just getting sponsors from within, whatever the situation is a recipe for disaster. If only I were 20 years younger, maybe just maybe I'd be tempted I believe there is an oppurtunity there for someone.
Click to expand...

With very very few exceptions every pro player I know male or female are nice people and very friendly to fans. An event like what you mention is somewhat different than what I was thinking of though. An event in a pool room is pretty much a closed loop. Thats where you are for the day pretty much. My point was based more on events like the US Open 9 Ball, US Open 10 Ball and things of that sort in large convention centers or hotels.

Often times players are in and out never to be seen between at these types of events. Of course this is not all players all the time. I have yet to see any player I was around or could see with my own eyes turn away a fan with a reasonable request for a short conversation or autograph. When presented with the situation everyone I have seen has handled it well. My point was that as a tactic to add value I think some sort of guideline ,that is reasonable to a player ,to just be in and around a venue when not playing makes sense. It would have top make sense for everyone in order to be of any value but I do think that when trying to tell someone how to run an event they are paying for it would be a good idea to have some carrots to go with the stick. I mean if the guys are gonna do it anyway why not get the extra points for it by giving it a name?

I'm not going to get into outside sponsors. That horse is so dead they cant even find DNA traces.
 
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As a pro Player I totally agree with Jcin. I dont know much about the new organization and have not played much over the last year in Pro Events. I think Zuglan runs a 1st Class event if not the best in the US to date, The money is a tough one, I dont think it should be considered a Ranking event but I also dont agree with Boycotting his event. Zuglan works his butt of to help his tour and his players and that is what he does twice a year for his Tour players. This event was never suppose to be a ranking event and from speaking with Zuglan he didnt care if it was or wasnt.

The tournament is a bonus for his tour and for what ever players want to play in it.

If this new organisation is to move forward they need to help Zuglan bring in the money not make demands. I hope it all works out but who knows pool world is just crazy right now.
 
JCIN said:
With very very few exceptions every pro player I know male or female are nice people and very friendly to fans. An event like what you mention is somewhat different than what I was thinking of though. An event in a pool room is pretty much a closed loop. Thats where you are for the day pretty much. My point was based more on events like the US Open 9 Ball, US Open 10 Ball and things of that sort in large convention centers or hotels.

Often times players are in and out never to be seen between at these types of events. Of course this is not all players all the time. I have yet to see any player I was around or could see with my own eyes turn away a fan with a reasonable request for a short conversation or autograph. When presented with the situation everyone I have seen has handled it well. My point was that as a tactic to add value I think some sort of guideline ,that is reasonable to a player ,to just be in and around a venue when not playing makes sense. It would have top make sense for everyone in order to be of any value but I do think that when trying to tell someone how to run an event they are paying for it would be a good idea to have some carrots to go with the stick. I mean if the guys are gonna do it anyway why not get the extra points for it by giving it a name?

I'm not going to get into outside sponsors. That horse is so dead they cant even find DNA traces.
Click to expand...

Could be an interesting sig line :smile: With this economy, even some of the bigger fish in the pond i.e. Nascar are losing sponsorship money. There has to be an organized product even before potential :rolleyes: sponsorship could be explored.
 
I tried to ask this question of Johnny multiple times when we interviewed him for Runout Radio. He kept pushing the "we need to get paid" angle. He finally did mention that they could do some things to help promoters, but was not very specific.

Mike

sunnyday said:
Justin has made a very valid point. The new player's association is all about making demands to promoters about what they want and wanting to change how the tournament has to run to cater to their likings, but have not offered what they will bring to the table to return the favor for the promoters.

S.
Click to expand...
 
AzHousePro said:
I tried to ask this question of Johnny multiple times when we interviewed him for Runout Radio. He kept pushing the "we need to get paid" angle. He finally did mention that they could do some things to help promoters, but was not very specific.

Mike
Click to expand...

Justin and Mike have pretty much told the true story in a nutshell. If people don't learn from their observations I don't know what can be done. If anything Justin and Mike have been polite to the players in stating how much of the problem the players are. History is flooded with those that highly overvalued their importance. They end up bloody on the roadside watching the rest of the world march on by like it always does.

A recent example that should show somebody something especially sponsors was the US Open 10 Ball put on by Mark Griffin. It was a first class event with the very best players in the world.

A hundred yards down the hall in the Riviera 6500 pool enthusiasts were participating in the BCA tournament. Until the last day of the Open the best players in the world played to an audience of a hundred people or so. So what is it exactly that the players in their current state bring to the party from a promoter/sponsor viewpoints. Almost nothing. They couldn't get people to walk 100 yards down the hall in a casino.

Find an ounce of leverage before you start telling anybody to do anything. Until then just be happy there are any tournaments to go to.
 
tonyc said:
As a pro Player I totally agree with Jcin. I dont know much about the new organization

If this new organisation is to move forward they need to help Zuglan bring in the money not make demands. I hope it all works out but who knows pool world is just crazy right now.
Click to expand...

Tony
You are one of the top players in the country, albeit a shade below the top echelons, but you have not been approached to join the organisation?
That does not bode well for the PA as it gives it a 'jobs for the boys' feel about it and does not appear to be looking after all the US Pro players.
 
pro9dg said:
Tony
You are one of the top players in the country, albeit a shade below the top echelons, but you have not been approached to join the organisation?
That does not bode well for the PA as it gives it a 'jobs for the boys' feel about it and does not appear to be looking after all the US Pro players.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head, pro9dg. The men's pro organizations in recent times have always seemed to address the concerns of a chosen few. It's a shame, really. It is one out of MANY reasons some so-called pro players quit competing professionally. It ain't worth it to deal with pool politics and meeting expenses and making ends meet.

I wish the new male pro pool organization all the very best, all five of them.
 
JAM said:
You hit the nail on the head, pro9dg. The men's pro organizations in recent times have always seemed to address the concerns of a chosen few. It's a shame, really. It is one out of MANY reasons some so-called pro players quit competing professionally. It ain't worth it to deal with pool politics and meeting expenses and making ends meet.

I wish the new male pro pool organization all the very best, all five of them.
Click to expand...

Who are the five? Johnnyt
 
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