Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

please don't get me wrong.

leto1776 said:
and here we are talking about a 16 yr old kid dealing with this kind of pressure
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I'm not saying we should expect a16 year old kid to know what to do. I'm saying as adults we should steer him the right way in his life. I don't have as much a problem with him as I do with the people trying claim that if it's in the rules it's ethical and should be done.

Haden
 
I believe that if it could have been proven before the match was over that Greg did not record a game and both players agreed, Then Greg should have got credit for that game But once they played out what they thought was the final game then it would be to late to contest the missing game.

In the finals with Dennis and Mika the TD stopped play to inform one of the players that he had forgotten to record his last game. It was confirmed by POV and a digital score keeper that was in view by all spectators. All agreed that that was the right call.
 
whats the difference in this and the 3 foul rule if your on 2 but the other player forgets to tell you and you foul does he get ball in hand if he says that's 3 fouls in a row after he forgot to tell you your on 2 the rule is he has to say your on 2 do you still give him ball in hand or do you follow the rules
 
If you forget you pay the price and next time you probably don't forget.
That's how it works in life, that's how you learn !

Maybe, or should we just ask our opponent what rules are we going
to be using today, and what rules does he want to leave out.

Of coarse if during the heat of the match I forget what he said, well
then we can amend the amendment of the rules to cover that.

Did I get that right, if not please feel free to amend my statement.
 
takeitdown said:
Not trying to bust balls.

If I win a game, dont mark it. Then I break and lookup and its still 0-0, can I mark my win?
What if I notice half way through game 2 can I mark it then?

To me I would rather lose than play like that. I have people pull crap like that all the time. I then revert to rule #1.

RULE#1 Life is too short to play with assholes.
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I don't have any problem with that. However, if the next game is over, and you then say, "hey, I didn't mark my last game up", then, too bad, you lost that game. Just don't try calling me names like "cheat", or "unethical" just because you can't be bothered to pay attention and act professional in what you are doing.:wink:
 
Funny you said this right after it happened to me and Lee Wehagan this weekend

Neil said:
So, if we are playing sets, two out of three sets for the win. And you win the first set 7-6, I win the second set 7-0, and you win the third set 7-6, you would concede and give me the win because I actually beat you in games 19-15 and not worry about that pesky little rule of 2 out of 3 sets, right?

Does it suck that Greg lost like that? Sure it does, but that doens't automatically make it unethical. He lost because he made a mistake. Just like any other mistake he might make, he paid the penalty for it.

I suppose you also think it is unethical for a policeman to write a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign because you slowed way down, made a rolling stop and proceeded when you saw it was clear to do so? After all, you did look both ways, just didn't quite stop like you were supposed to.
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We were going back to the room and got kind of lost with the new roads not on the GPS.

Coming into the commercial area it was pretty dark and we came up to a stop sign. As I stopped I said to Lee, which way do you think I should go. His replay was , There is a cop sitting right there just to the right. He was on this little nub, dead end road about 20 feet long. I can only go forward or to the left. The officer is to the right with no lights on at all. Lee said it didn't matter so I went left

I started rolling forward real slow waiting for Lees answer to which way and turned to the left. Visibility was kind of bad and not sure of the road so I did go real slow.

The officer turns on his lights stopping us and told me I didn't stop. I immediately told him I did and Lee piped in also. We had actually stopped for about 3 seconds before I started rolling forward trying to decide which way to go. And there was absolutely no traffic on this side road at 2:30 AM.

After arguing with the officer he told me he was giving me a warning for the violation. I told him I don't even deserve that and so did Lee.

He came back from his car and told us he had us on the police cam and that I didn't stop.

I told him I stopped back far enough so his cam could not see us.

I stopped about10 feet in back of the stop sign. Do I have to pull up exactly even with the stop sign and stop or I get a ticket. I don't think so. If so we would all get 100's of tickets.

After arguing constructively for awhile the officer did admit that his camera might not show 10 feet behind the stop sign.

And I can almost guarantee that he was looking down at something when we stopped and looked up when we were going forward.

Should I get a $292.00 ticket, lose 3 points on my license and get my insurance rates doubled because the officer made a glaring mistake. Absolutely not.

The kid won the game. This sends a message to every young player and amateur in the world that this is OK.

The kid won the game. I stopped at the stop sign.

Maybe they should penalize the kid an extra game for not marking up his game.

That is cheating for the other guy.

If I have all of myself in the Calcutta and I'm playing my buddy in the final but we have no part of him at all. Is it cheating to not mark up the win on the final game. If I don't mark the score on the hill hill game do I lose? No. the player just comes over and shakes your hand and concedes the loss. Because it is obvious.

When you forget to mark your game in a huge tournament it's a shame that people and players think it is too bad he forgot.

Rediculous. We need to clean up the game of pool and get away from the ruthless roots of pool in the trenches where 2 guys drunk and on drugs would do anything to beat each other gambling at the local pool hall.

The cards read themselves. I stopped at the stop sign and the kid should have won the match.

They even put people in prison by mistake but once they figure it out with DNA they let them out.

Honest mistakes like forget to mark your game in front of hundreds of people should not be a free ticket for the other player to win that didn't get there.

It's kind of cool in life when we really get a chance to be honest in a situation where it will cost us something and we step up.

Pool players everywhere need to step up. It will help step up this game that we all love.



Think about it. That's how ignorant this is!
 
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Jaden said:
You're right Chris but you and I both know that if we were playing each other and it was brought to either of our attention that the other failed to mark a game that we would acknowledge the loss and move on. It's the only right thing to do.

It's completely different if it's not brought up until after the match.

Jaden
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Jaden said:
We're not talking about Greg's actions. Under the circumstances he did the honorable thing. He continued play. He shouldn't have had to.

If you want to talk about earning a win, you don't earn a win in an open tournament by taking a game on the wire which is basically what this amounts to.

Jaden
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So why's it different? In either scenario the losing player got to 7 first. What's the ethical/moral basis for making a distinction between these two?

Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

I think we are making this into way more than it is. Greg forgot to mark his game and it sounds like he instinctively understood that he was to blame. If he understands this, why don't we?
 
Jaden said:
Again you're arguing the rules when we're talking about ethics. It was not ethical or honorable for Chris to accept the win; however it was within the rules.

You keep telling yourself that it'sethical and honorable to accept a win under the rules when in actuality your opponent beat you.

Jaden
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Not that I think this is the case.
How do we know it was not intentional. How do we know it was not a brilliant idea to throw off an opponent so they do not feel that “must win this game or I am done feeling” at the correct time. Then just walk over to an official so they can declare you the winner. Force the opponent to concede defeat even after they thought that they had won. You remove mental “must win” edge, you have to win one more game and win or just walk over to an official and they declare you the winner. You create a condition when you can not lose.
Very easy to manipulate the question to your pov isnt it? You are making unethical charges against a 16 year old kid, that did nothing to cause the problem.
 
dabarbr said:
I believe that if it could have been proven before the match was over that Greg did not record a game and both players agreed, Then Greg should have got credit for that game But once they played out what they thought was the final game then it would be to late to contest the missing game.

In the finals with Dennis and Mika the TD stopped play to inform one of the players that he had forgotten to record his last game. It was confirmed by POV and a digital score keeper that was in view by all spectators. All agreed that that was the right call.
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So, if the match is being filmed, and one guy accidentally touches a ball in all ball fouls format, but the ref and the opponent don't see it, and the shooter doesn't even realize that he did it, but someone in the audience does see it, is it that then the ref should go back several games and replay that game as it was with the opponent now getting ball in hand?

The scenario you posted with Dennis and Mika is not the same thing. You stated that the ref stated that he forgot to mark his LAST game, not a game several games ago. And, I feel the ref was remiss in what he did. His job is call fouls, he is not allowed to warn a player that he is about to commit a rules violation. While it seems nice that the ref did what he did, it was the wrong thing to do going by the actual rules he was supposed to be enforcing. That is no different than the ref warning you that you are about to shoot the wrong ball. Very unprofessional of him to do so.
 
One last thing...

Let's flip this around.

Player A wins a rack and KNOWINGLY fails to mark his score for whatever reason (and I can actually think of a couple shady reasons for doing so). So he's winning 3-1, but the score shows 2-1. Player B doesn't acknowledge that Player A failed to mark his score and they continue playing.

They battle it out and it's Hill-Hill. Prior to breaking the last rack, Player A all of a sudden remembers that he didn't mark his score in one of the racks. The railbirds concur.

Player A says "Sorry I missed that but good match - I got to seven first."

You think Player A would get the missing rack in this scenario.
 
To me this is a no-brainer.

If I forgot to mark it up, but there's no evidence of it,
I ask the opponent to do the right thing and correct the inaccurate score.
Nothing wrong with asking.

If they refuse, I kick myself for my carelessness, and move on.
Without evidence it's pointless to make a federal case out of it.

If there's evidence, and they still refuse, I get the ref.
If the ref rules against me, I make a mental note that I need to be extra careful
with my opponent. I'm going to see them as kind of weaselly.

And I'd have second thoughts about the kind of event I'm playing in.
It would sour my view of the tournament if a ref denies obvious evidence
and takes a callous "you snooze you lose" attitude. I'd talk to the TD about it.

If my opponent forgets to mark something, I'd bring it to their attention as soon as I realized.
If I never realize it, but they convince me they're being honest about the missed game,
I'd chalk it up with no further questions asked.
I'm not looking to be the world champion of scorekeeping, I want to outplay people on the pool table.

To answer the question, yes, Chris should have said something.
But it's fair to say that he may handle things differently in a few years.
I wouldn't really hate a teenager for acting like that, they're still learning.
If I were greg, I'd talk to the kid about it and try not to be too upset.
 
genomachino said:
We were going back to the room and got kind of lost with the new roads not on the GPS.

Coming into the commercial area it was pretty dark and we came up to a stop sign. As I stopped I said to Lee, which way do you think I should go. His replay was , There is a cop sitting right there just to the right. He was on this little nub, dead end road about 20 feet long. I can only go forward or to the left. The officer is to the right with no lights on at all. Lee said it didn't matter so I went left

I started rolling forward real slow waiting for Lees answer to which way and turned to the left. Visibility was kind of bad and not sure of the road so I did go real slow.

The officer turns on his lights stopping us and told me I didn't stop. I immediately told him I did and Lee piped in also. We had actually stopped for about 3 seconds before I started rolling forward trying to decide which way to go. And there was absolutely no traffic on this side road at 2:30 AM.

After arguing with the officer he told me he was giving me a warning for the violation. I told him I don't even deserve that and so did Lee.

He came back from his car and told us he had us on the police cam and that I didn't stop.

I told him I stopped back far enough so his cam could not see us.

I stopped about10 feet in back of the stop sign. Do I have to pull up exactly even with the stop sign and stop or I get a ticket. I don't think so. If so we would all get 100's of tickets.

After arguing constructively for awhile the officer did admit that his camera might not show 10 feet behind the stop sign.

And I can almost guarantee that he was looking down at something when we stopped and looked up when we were going forward.

Should I get a $292.00 ticket, lose 3 points on my license and get my insurance rates doubled because the officer made a glaring mistake. Absolutely not.

The kid won the game. This sends a message to every young player and amateur in the world that this is OK.

The kid won the game. I stopped at the stop sign.

Maybe they should penalize the kid an extra game for not marking up his game.

That is cheating for the other guy.

If I have all of myself in the Calcutta and I'm playing my buddy in the final but we have no part of him at all. Is it cheating to not mark up the win on the final game. If I don't mark the score on the hill hill game do I lose? No. the player just comes over and shakes your hand and concedes the loss. Because it is obvious.

When you forget to mark your game in a huge tournament it's a shame that people and players think it is too bad he forgot.

Rediculous. We need to clean up the game of pool and get away from the ruthless roots of pool in the trenches where 2 guys drunk and on drugs would do anything to beat each other gambling at the local pool hall.

The cards read themselves. I stopped at the stop sign and the kid should have won the match.

They even put people in prison by mistake but once they figure it out with DNA they let them out.

Honest mistakes like forget to mark your game in front of hundreds of people should not be a free ticket for the other player to win that didn't get there.

It's kind of cool in life when we really get a chance to be honest in a situation where it will cost us something and we step up.

Pool players everywhere need to step up. It will help step up this game that we all love.



Think about it. That's how ignorant this is!
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I am thinking about it, and am amazed at your inability to see the obvious. That is, rules are in place, they are supposed to be followed, yet you feel you are above the rules, the rules hold the game back. The game will advance when YOU get to make up your own rules, and anyone that doesn't abide by THEM is a cheat!

You are right in that pool players need to "step up". They need to start acting like professionals and abide by the rules in place, not make up their own as they go along. And, I totally agree that is is the height of ignorance to think that you are allowed to violate any rule that you don't agree with and make up your own and then expect others to abide by your own set of rules.

Try reading the rules sometime Gene. It states that if you don't mark up your game, it is not a win. What part of that don't you seem to understand? If the two is sitting on the lip of the pocket, and I don't see it, and I then shoot the three and run down to the 9 and then see it. Do I then get to shoot the two before the nine and still get the win? Why not? It was just a little mistake. I realized it later, and still shot all the balls in, so I should get the win, right? It's the same thing, Gene. You just can't see it because you don't want to see it and think that rule doesn't need apply to you.

As to your stop sign scenario, the law clearly states how far back you are allowed to stop. You don't get to arbitrarily make up your own distance. Now, I don't know what the law is for where you were at. But, you don't get to say, hey, I did stop, just ten feet back. When the law states within 8 feet. If so, the next guy can argue 11 feet, and so on.

I really don't understand you guys that think you are free to toss out the rule book, and then in so doing, call others cheats, unethical, and holding pool back for following the rules. It's not a win if you don't mark it. So, you are wanting to count a non-win as a win. You want to call "cheater", then look in a mirror and do so. Then, you will be correct.
 
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Gene you said,
"The kid won the game. This sends a message to every young player and amateur in the world that this is OK."

The message it actually sends is it's your responsibility to pay attention and mark up your own score.
If you don't there is a penalty. Why is there a penalty to provide a learning experience
so next time you hopefully remember.

Then next time there won't be a thread where people are saying disparaging things
about your opponent. For you have taken responsibility for your own score as you should. It's no one else's responsibility. Own it !
 
SkyscraperChris said:
This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.
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That's a crock of sh1t. Each player is responsible for marking their games. Nothing unethical about that. Blame the one who made the mistake. Are you suppose to tell him when he's going to scratch or he's playing the wrong shot.
Greg made a mistake that cost him 1 game. Don't bash this kid for Greg's mistake. Hell ask Greg.... If he's honest he will tell you it was his own fault.
Your way off base. Greg made the mistake and mistakes cost. Or should we issue pardons or amendments for self inflicted loses
 
Neil said:
I don't have any problem with that. However, if the next game is over, and you then say, "hey, I didn't mark my last game up", then, too bad, you lost that game. Just don't try calling me names like "cheat", or "unethical" just because you can't be bothered to pay attention and act professional in what you are doing.:wink:
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Ok so after one game its too late. Is that how the rulebook reads? I really dont know myself.

Problem is with streaming , now there is indiputable proof and it will be used. Like in football, tennis ect.

I think this went as it should in this case. Especially bevause the kid didnt know about it at the time. Its not his responsibility either.
 
"If there's evidence, and they still refuse, I get the ref.
If the ref rules against me, I make a mental note that I need to be extra careful
with my opponent. I'm going to see them as kind of weaselly.

How about you make a mental note up your games, as it's your responsibility.
Instead of trying to weasel out of your responsibility by looking to blame someone else?
 
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itsfroze said:
"If there's evidence, and they still refuse, I get the ref.
If the ref rules against me, I make a mental note that I need to be extra careful
with my opponent. I'm going to see them as kind of weaselly.

How about you make a mental note to mark up your games, as it's your responsibility.
Instead of trying to weasel out of your responsibility by looking to blame someone else?
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Spot on. I've lost MANY games through no fault of my own. I can't see where I should get a pardon on something that WAS my fault. If Greg reads this thread he should man up and not let this kid get bashed when he did nothing wrong
 
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