Who is the Professional Governing Body with Official Rankings?

cjssecrets4u2 said:
I have no desire to ever get involved with a "non profit" tour/organization again....
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I don't know why, but that statement right there tickled my funny bone. :killingme:

Maybe I've been a reader of this forum too long, but, man, the same comments about what's wrong with professional pool, CW, UPA, APB, Dragon, et cetera, seem to be repeated and repeated and repeated.

A good back-and-forth discourse can sometimes, though, produce a positive outcome, but in the case of pool, I don't believe there can be any positive outcome without money. Money is the key to pool's success.

You can shout from the highest mountaintop how great Efren Reyes is, how strong Earl's break is, how cute Alex Pagulayan is, or how interesting Johnny Archer's playing mannerisms are, but nobody cares. :rolleyes:

Until somebody can invest in pool, as Kevin Trudeau tried to, with a public relations vehicle, an agent to teach pool pros how to handle themselves off the table in public, and have a real tour with real rules and rule money, as the saying goes, pool will continue to be a non-entity in the sports arena in the United States. :grin-square:

We can enjoy pool afar when they compete in Philippines and China, but in the United States, professional pool has begun to stink like a dead fish in the water. The only people who can profit are industry members, and even they are struggling, i.e., print media, those who film pool, regional tours, et cetera. The only folks guaranteed a profit are the tournament directors. In fact, they make more money than the players do at most events. :eek:

Those who continue to keep professional pool alive in their hearts are those who have passion for it. Money isn't important. Losing your life savings, a significant other, or a well-paying job to play professional pool is a sacrifice they are willing to make. They sometimes die a lonely death with no family to comfort them in their time of need and no money to bury them. :sorry:

When the pro players can't run a rack anymore and dance like a monkey in professional pool, he's discarded like yesterday's trash in the American pool culture. There are some on this very forum who say, well, hey, that's how it is in sports. Look at boxing. This may be so, but those boxers and other sports figures make a hell of a lot more money doing what they do than pro pool players. :wink:

Yeah, I know, I know, nobody forced them to play pool for a living, and I've found these folks who utter these words are the very ones fighting to get in the front of the line to get that autograph or photo taken with very pro players they ridicule. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that at pool tournaments. The biggest forum trolls and bullies are the ones with the brownest noses when it comes to pro pool players. You should see these sorry SOBs kissing butt when they see a pro player in person. :mad:

It may be time to move on and accept the fact that pool is a recreational game. Social shooters, recreational play, and leagues is what's happening in American. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but that is the stark reality.
 
JAM said:
....but in the case of pool, I don't believe there can be any positive outcome without money. Money is the key to pool's success...
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I agree with most of what you said.
What I don't understand is the "why" portion of the equation.

In theory, it is entirely possible to have a national pool organization that not only functions as well, but is also as reputable as the PGA, MLB, NFL etc . It can be done. So why isnt it?

Yes it takes money, but thats not the real problem, because the money is out there. At this point it's politics and greed, ie 'selfishness' that is the biggest stumbling block.

Table-makers won't agree on standards, Tourney-makers won't agree on rules, (neither will the major associations) The instructors and mechanics argue amongst themselves about what is and isnt professional... The mainstream media (and the public) just doesnt know who to turn to or trust anymore.

Will the 'real' slim shady please stand up?
please stand up
please stand up

Its not about a lack of money, its about major corporations losing touch with their customer base. Its about egocentric associations who relentlessly dwell on reasons to divide, rather than unite. Its about broke players and organizers looking to make a fast buck, and letting the sight of a few $$$ goto their head. (follow the carrot)

For once, I'd like to read a headline telling me how all American pool leagues have agreed to use the same rules, not because of money, but because it makes effing sense...

Or, all American table makers agreeing to build "standardized" tourney tables, not because its more profitable or less profitable, but because it makes effing sense.

Or - how about a headline that tells me about all the "big" tourneys out there joining forces to create a REAL pro tour, with a season, and a schedule that can be depended on year after year. Not because it would save the world from cancer, but because it makes effing sense.

Sorry to ramble on - but the first thing these mofos need to do is learn to play well with others.

Find common goals, throw out the rest of the BS, stop 'talking about it', and actually get something positive accomplished. Not just for yourself, but for the benefit of everyone with a cue in their hand.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I agree with most of what you said.
What I don't understand is the "why" portion of the equation.

In theory, it is entirely possible to have a national pool organization that not only functions as well, but is also as reputable as the PGA, MLB, NFL etc . It can be done. So why isnt it?

Yes it takes money, but thats not the real problem, because the money is out there. At this point it's politics and greed, ie 'selfishness' that is the biggest stumbling block.

Table-makers won't agree on standards, Tourney-makers won't agree on rules, (neither will the major associations) The instructors and mechanics argue amongst themselves about what is and isnt professional... The mainstream media (and the public) just doesnt know who to turn to or trust anymore.

Will the 'real' slim shady please stand up?
please stand up
please stand up

Its not about a lack of money, its about major corporations losing touch with their customer base. Its about egocentric associations who relentlessly dwell on reasons to divide, rather than unite. Its about broke players and organizers looking to make a fast buck, and letting the sight of a few $$$ goto their head. (follow the carrot)

For once, I'd like to read a headline telling me how all American pool leagues have agreed to use the same rules, not because of money, but because it makes effing sense...

Or, all American table makers agreeing to build "standardized" tourney tables, not because its more profitable or less profitable, but because it makes effing sense.

Or - how about a headline that tells me about all the "big" tourneys out there joining forces to create a REAL pro tour, with a season, and a schedule that can be depended on year after year. Not because it would save the world from cancer, but because it makes effing sense.

Sorry to ramble on - but the first thing these mofos need to do is learn to play well with others.

Find common goals, throw out the rest of the BS, stop 'talking about it', and actually get something positive accomplished. Not just for yourself, but for the benefit of everyone with a cue in their hand.
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Hear, hear. I definitely agree what what you have written. Tap, tap, tap. :smile:

When you have today's pool super stars steering their own professional pool ship (think ABP), ensuring that only they and their buddies get to eat filet mignon behind closed doors, while all others scramble for crumbs, therein lies the problem. :frown:
 
If you're not part of the answer, you're part of the problem

Mr. Griffin made some excellent points in his post relative to at least some culpability on behalf of Mr. Walsh in his workings with the ABP.

While I can only gather information on Mr. Walsh from this forum as I do not know him, I definitely think the ABP or Mr. Walsh himself should address Mr. Griffin's concerns directly, whether via telephone, private message or face-to-face. It's as simple as that.

When you hang around with dogs, it's very hard not to get fleas. But that's no excuse for not straightening out a wrong.

We all make judgement errors. It's how we act in the realization of our error that's the most telling.

There's an old saying: If you are not part of the answer, you're part of the problem.
 
loyarc said:
Mr. Griffin made some excellent points in his post relative to at least some culpability on behalf of Mr. Walsh in his workings with the ABP.

While I can only gather information on Mr. Walsh from this forum as I do not know him, I definitely think the ABP or Mr. Walsh himself should address Mr. Griffin's concerns directly, whether via telephone, private message or face-to-face. It's as simple as that.

When you hang around with dogs, it's very hard not to get fleas. But that's no excuse for not straightening out a wrong.

We all make judgement errors. It's how we act in the realization of our error that's the most telling.

There's an old saying: If you are not part of the answer, you're part of the problem.
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You're right everyone makes judgment errors, however in the event that
someone makes the same type of underhanded decisions over and over
I don't think they qualify as judgment errors.
 
Mark...I have no dog in this fight, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I only meant to infer that Dennis is not a PAID attorney or consultant to the ABP. I agree that if he is going to represent them in any way, including press releases, that he should communicate with you regarding the inconsistencies. Perhaps he will comment.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mark Griffin said:
Hi Scott,

I agree that Dennis has tried to do some good things for the pool world.
But he is in the ABP stuff up to his ears. (His address, he invited people to join the FB site).

My problem with the ABP is that their last press release showed the rankings of all the players that have played in 3 events. These events are Hopkins Players Championship, the US Open 10-Ball, and Turning Stone.

This suggests that these 3 events have sanctioned or recognized the ABP.

That is NOT TRUE. The only one that actually did sanction with ABP is Hopkins. So their rankings are computed from events that do not even recognize the ABP.

That is misleading and improper behavior! As an attorney, he should know what is considered proper behavior and what is not completely proper.


He should know that any press release should have a name and address/phone number for questions or clarification.

He should know that posting on AZBilliards forums and NOT responding to questions is not proper.

I know he is not 'running' the show - but if he is that involved, he should make sure someone is available to respond to questions or accept responsibility. None of that has occured in the past.

I have talked with Dennis in the past - and one of the major topics was that the ABP needs to act in a business like manner.

It is unfortunate that I have to write letters to explain to everyone that I am NOT endorsing or sanctioning with the the ABP. All of this because someone intentionally put out bad information. I support the BCA points.

Now, I have heard that some of the pool players actually think they have to go to these ABP events to get BCA points. Thatis exactly what all this was meant to do - confuse the players and the public.

The BCA points determine who gets invited to WPA events. ABP point mean nothing except to the ABP.

This is all so unnecessary - and Dennis Walsh needs to accept his share of the blame since he is acting as their general counsel.

Mark Griffin,CEO
CSI
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Scott Lee said:
Mark...I have no dog in this fight, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I only meant to infer that Dennis is not a PAID attorney or consultant to the ABP. I agree that if he is going to represent them in any way, including press releases, that he should communicate with you regarding the inconsistencies. Perhaps he will comment.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Scott: Thanks for your support.

The ABP will be discussing some of the issues that Mr. Griffin decided to bring up in this thread before long in the proper forum. I think Mr. Griffin is overreacting to things that have been done. Either that or he is feigning outrage just to stir the pot and raise a hubbub about Charlie Williams.
 
So you do not wish to discuss, just offer what you 'think'? Sounds like an experienced lawyer to me.

'Overreacting', 'feigning outrage' to 'stir the pot' and 'raise a hubbub' about CW is ,IMO, 'petty' coming from a lawyer.

Mr. Griffin only mentioned the ORG "APB"and not any names in particular. Funny how you speculate Mr. Griffin's intentions to diminish CW's reputation.

dmgwalsh said:
Scott: Thanks for your support.

The ABP will be discussing some of the issues that Mr. Griffin decided to bring up in this thread before long in the proper forum. I think Mr. Griffin is overreacting to things that have been done. Either that or he is feigning outrage just to stir the pot and raise a hubbub about Charlie Williams.
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I guess you would have to determine what governing body means.

For the pros who are APB members I guess that they feel that the APB is their governing body.

For the pros who wish to play in BCA and WPA events then the BCA is the governing body.

Not sure who Matchroom looks to in order to decide which points list is used for the Mosconi Cup.

In fact as you well know CJ, professional pool is broken in the United States and it's more broken than when you started the PCA. In fact there is no true governing body because there is no "body".

The BCA does not govern professional pool AT ALL. The BCA is only associated with the WPA and is charged with nominating players into WPA events. The WPA does not care HOW those players get nominated. Other than maintaining a points list that is cobbled together from a formula devised to give weight to various events that the points list creators deem to be worthy of using to award points the BCA has zero influence on professional pool.

The APB from this outsider's perspective is a loosely run collection of professionals that has no actual organization and less actual power in the industry.

As Buddy once said in an interview, everyone wants to see things get better but no one is willing to put the rubber to the road to make it happen.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I agree with most of what you said.
What I don't understand is the "why" portion of the equation.

In theory, it is entirely possible to have a national pool organization that not only functions as well, but is also as reputable as the PGA, MLB, NFL etc . It can be done. So why isnt it?

Yes it takes money, but thats not the real problem, because the money is out there. At this point it's politics and greed, ie 'selfishness' that is the biggest stumbling block.

Table-makers won't agree on standards, Tourney-makers won't agree on rules, (neither will the major associations) The instructors and mechanics argue amongst themselves about what is and isnt professional... The mainstream media (and the public) just doesnt know who to turn to or trust anymore.

Will the 'real' slim shady please stand up?
please stand up
please stand up

Its not about a lack of money, its about major corporations losing touch with their customer base. Its about egocentric associations who relentlessly dwell on reasons to divide, rather than unite. Its about broke players and organizers looking to make a fast buck, and letting the sight of a few $$$ goto their head. (follow the carrot)

For once, I'd like to read a headline telling me how all American pool leagues have agreed to use the same rules, not because of money, but because it makes effing sense...

Or, all American table makers agreeing to build "standardized" tourney tables, not because its more profitable or less profitable, but because it makes effing sense.

Or - how about a headline that tells me about all the "big" tourneys out there joining forces to create a REAL pro tour, with a season, and a schedule that can be depended on year after year. Not because it would save the world from cancer, but because it makes effing sense.

Sorry to ramble on - but the first thing these mofos need to do is learn to play well with others.

Find common goals, throw out the rest of the BS, stop 'talking about it', and actually get something positive accomplished. Not just for yourself, but for the benefit of everyone with a cue in their hand.
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Much of what you write is correct. But I disagree about the fundamental premise. It is about a lack of money. None of these groups is willing to put up the money or can find the money to pay for a real organization with staff to handle the business of professional pool.

There are several millionaires here who could own professional pool but they want nothing to do with it. When Kevin Trudeau did his thing and gave a rousing speech about where he wanted to take pro pool during the first event in Orlando he expected to have a couple hundred professional pool players turn into evangelists and get out and promote the IPT intensely. That didn't happen. They didn't turn into the type of grass-roots activists that Trudeau expected that they would become.

Pro pool players rarely do anything to grow the game if they aren't getting paid to show up. They also dont' have agents and PR people who can book them on radio shows, tv interviews, or get them in schmoozy parties and events.

Notice that when a movie comes out all the principal actors make the rounds of all the major talk shows to promote it? Do you think that they do this for fun? They do it because it's required AND it's beneficial to them. When the world cup of women's soccer was held in the USA the USA Team got out and went on a massive grass-roots campaign to sell tickets with the results that nearly every stadium was sold out.

Have you ever in your life seen a professional pool player out there trying to sell tickets and increase attendance at a professional event? I haven't yet seen that. Some might say well that's not the job of the pro but I say when the pro organization is weak then it's every pro's job to do what they can to grow the game and grow the base.

There are SO MANY things that can be done and almost none of them are being done. Why? Lack of money and lack of organization.

Now I agree that the money is there. It's sitting in every league player's pocket right now. .25cts a week per league player would fund an organization to govern professional pool and give it the foundation to actually be effective.
 
This seems like an attempt at manipulating the outcome of the mosconi cup selection and manipulating tournament seeding to help a select few make more MONEY!!!

What type of manipulation is possible???

1. Well, giving some events more points before, during or after the fact!!!
2. Increasing the number of tournaments awarded points or deminishing the number of tournaments that award points.
3. manipulating the points awarded for 1st to last!!!

The Key here is to have an independent third party to oversee the ranking!!! They really need to pay someone outside the industry to rank this!!! or move to a money earnings system and the top money earners get the mosconi cup selection and they need to RETURN to a true draw. There is NO BENEFIT to seeding players at all the fans certainly do not gain and they actually miss out on some great match ups in the early rounds!!!

KD
 
JB Cases said:
Now I agree that the money is there. It's sitting in every league player's pocket right now. .25cts a week per league player would fund an organization to govern professional pool and give it the foundation to actually be effective.
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With all due respect John, again with the notion that for some reason the league player is morally bound to finance the livelihood of professional pool players? Why is the league player targeted? Gee, there are several hundred thousand of them so let's get the money from them. After all, it's only 25 cents a week each so what's the problem?

The question is why should the league player be the ones who are supposed to finance it? Just because it's an easy source of money? If the thing becomes a big success do the league players own the stock in the venture and reap the profits? Somehow I doubt it.

We are not talking about a charity here, or are we? Why not go to the APA, the BCAPL and the other leagues and ask the owners of those leagues to fork over 25 cents a week out of their own pockets for each member they have? Ya' think they'd want a stake in the venture or would they really do it out of the kindness in their hearts? Even having the members pay the freight as a surcharge, why should they be in the business of collecting and processing the tax for a pro tour?

This idea that league players should fund this thing without consideration just because there seems to be money there is getting tired. Why not a pool tour cigarette tax, or a surtax on gasoline? There's even more money in that. This idea has been brought up several times but as of yet no one has explained WHY they think the league player should finance the operation other than it's an easily source of funds made salable by a "low, low weekly payment of only 25 cents!" - "Hey, I got an idea, let's get the league players to pay for it."

A better idea would be for everyone who makes a living one way or the other in the billiard industry to fork up only $5 per week per person. Obviously there is perceived value for that group of people to have a thriving professional billiard sport. Just deduct it from each paycheck and turn it over to the tour treasurer.

This isn't a charity were talking about. The idea is for professional players to make money along with promoters and everyone else in the industry from the growth of the sport. I just don't accept the idea the league player should somehow be the source of the FREE financing just because they seem like an easy mark with money. It just smells like that old pool mentality - getting money from someone else without having to give anything in return.
 
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This discussion is par for the course in the pool world and what has held the sport back all these years. I've seen countless internal squabbles about who controls what, where and when for over three decades now. It's nothing new!

There has been at least a dozen associations come and go in that time, none of them ever seeming to accomplish anything of note, other than anger a lot of people. And it's not just in the USA this has transpired. The various Asian and European federations have all had their own power struggles while trying to flex their muscles.

Everyone wants to be the sheriff and no one wants to be the deputy. What we see over and over again is "the big fish in the small pond" syndrome. Pool worldwide is still a relatively "small pond" on the world sports map, although it has grown exponentially in Asia the last few years.

Thirty years of dealing with all these conflicts has taken a toll on me. Seems like every tournament I work there is some politically motivated crap that we have to deal with. I no longer look forward to acting as a tournament director like I used to. I'm much happier when I can simply go and do commentary and leave the other concerns to someone else.

For a long time I had hope for this sport to pull it all together. And maybe it yet will, but it's doubtful I will be along for the ride. I'm burned out with all the politics and power plays. Pool is a fractured sport that could be "bought" by someone with deep pockets. All those letter names that designate the various associations would mean nothing if someone wanted to render them moot. Trudeau proved that and so did Barry Hearn when he launched Matchroom's version of the World 9-Ball Championship in 1999. They didn't need any sanction when they put up serious prize money. All the players were immediately onboard!
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
With all due respect John, again with the notion that for some reason the league player is morally bound to finance the livelihood of professional pool players? Why is the league player targeted? Gee, there are several hundred thousand of them so let's get the money from them. After all, it's only 25 cents a week each so what's the problem?

The question is why should the league player be the ones who are supposed to finance it? Just because it's an easy source of money? If the thing becomes a big success do the league players own the stock in the venture and reap the profits? Somehow I doubt it.

We are not talking about a charity here, or are we? Why not go to the APA, the BCAPL and the other leagues and ask the owners of those leagues to fork over 25 cents a week out of their own pockets for each member they have? Ya' think they'd want a stake in the venture or would they really do it out of the kindness in their hearts? Even having the members pay the freight as a surcharge, why should they be in the business of collecting and processing the tax for a pro tour?

This idea that league players should fund this thing without consideration just because there seems to be money there is getting tired. Why not a pool tour cigarette tax, or a surtax on gasoline? There's even more money in that.

A better idea would be for everyone who makes a living one way or the other in the billiard industry to fork up only $5 per week per person. Obviously there is perceived value for that group of people to have a thriving professional billiard sport. Just deduct it from each paycheck and turn it over to the tour treasurer.

This isn't a charity were talking about. The idea is for professional players to make money along with promoters and everyone else in the industry from the growth of the sport. I just don't accept the idea the league player should somehow be the source of the FREE financing just because they seem like an easy mark with money. It just smells like that old pool mentality - getting money from someone else without having to give anything in return.
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Why does the league player play now? For fun and for competition. Why do 5000+ players go to the national events each year and thousands to regional events? For fun, competition and the allure of winning decent money in my opinion.

When pool grows so do the leagues and so does the amount of fun and competition a league player can have. When pool grows the league player has more options and more places to play.

When the leagues fund the pro tour then they can bind the pros tighter into the league system which means more interaction, more training, subbing on league teams, league teams vs. pro teams, spots in pro events, pro-ams and so on.

Also there can be a clear path from amateur to professional through the leagues for those that want to pursue that path. Leagues and tours could then work together for that path or the pro tour could establish their own qualifier tours.

In other words it's win/win for everyone who loves to play pool in the system. Even if you could care less about the pros you still would like to have a strong and ongoing league environment that provides you with a lot of fun. Having a strong consistent pro tour on tv regularly goes a long way towards insuring that this happens.

Anything that has a strong base endures.

(To add to this: all league players are currently paying for salaries, marketing, administration, etc... now. There is no difference in the APA/CSI/ACA etc... spending a collective million dollars on advertising or spending it on a pro tour. If the APA raises your league dues by .25cts you don't question them what it's for just like you don't ask them for their P/L statement now.)
 
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JB, that might make a little bit of sense if the vast majority of league players were aspiring to become pros. But the fact is that most league players probably can't name even one professional player and couldn't care less. And many of the serious players only play league one season for no other reason than to qualify to play in the big annual event.

The league system becoming the path to the professional ranks? Anyone good enough can play professional pool. The only way that might work is if say the APA funded a pro tour and the only way to get a card to that tour was to win an APA member only Q school event. If you end up low enough on the money list to lose your card the only way to get it back is to go back to league play and earn your way back. No outsiders get on tour. But again, go to the owners of the APA for that, not the weekly league players. The average player doesn't care if the league grows on a national level, only the owners of the league care about that. Think about it. The bigger leagues has several hundred thousand members and 5,000 or so play in the national tournament? That's not what I would call a farm system. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if the APA has already considered the idea but realized it would probably be bad for business. If the league became so competitive and serious probably more people would drop out than would join.

Again, I maintain people earning a living in the industry are the ones who would directly benefit from a successful pro tour and logically should fund it. I've yet to hear anyone in the industry propose that idea though. They would rather have the league players footing the bill.

I play in a league and am what most would consider a serious pool player. I follow the pro game. But frankly, even if it was offered as a voluntary weekly donation I'd probably check the "no" box. Call me silly, but I'd rather give that money to breast cancer research, unicef, or my local animal shelter. On my lost of favorite charities, pro pool is way down there.

If a pro tour isn't financially viable to stand on it's own without continual donations, maybe it isn't meant to be.

Pool has never been a big time professional sport and many of us have enjoyed the game for decades without that.

In any case, I promise no more hijacking of the thread's subject matter on my part.
 
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JB, that might make a little bit of sense if the vast majority of league players were aspiring to become pros. But the fact is that most league players probably can't name even one professional player and couldn't care less. And many of the serious players only play league one season for no other reason than to qualify to play in the big annual event.<br />
<br />
The league system becoming the path to the professional ranks? Anyone good enough can play professional pool. The only way that might work is if say the APA funded a pro tour and the only way to get a card to that tour was to win an APA member only Q school event. If you end up low enough on the money list to lose your card the only way to get it back is to go back to league play and earn your way back. No outsiders get on tour. But again, go to the owners of the APA for that, not the weekly league players. The average player doesn't care if the league grows on a national level, only the owners of the league care about that. Think about it. The bigger leagues has several hundred thousand members and 5,000 or so play in the national tournament? That's not what I would call a farm system. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if the APA has already considered the idea but realized it would probably be bad for business. If the league became so competitive and serious probably more people would drop out than would join.<br />
<br />
Again, I maintain people earning a living in the industry are the ones who would directly benefit from a successful pro tour and logically should fund it. I've yet to hear anyone in the industry propose that idea though. They would rather have the league players footing the bill.<br />
<br />
I play in a league and am what most would consider a serious pool player. I follow the pro game. But frankly, even if it was offered as a voluntary weekly donation I'd probably check the "no" box. Call me silly, but I'd rather give that money to breast cancer research, unicef, or my local animal shelter. On my lost of favorite charities, pro pool is way down there.<br />
<br />
If a pro tour isn't financially viable to stand on it's own without continual donations, maybe it isn't meant to be.<br />
<br />
Pool has never been a big time professional sport and many of us have enjoyed the game for decades without that.<br />
<br />
In any case, I promise no more hijacking of the thread's subject matter on my part.
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It would not be voluntary any more than your current dues are. If the leagues announced the creation of a pro tour tomorrow there would be no disclosure of how they would pay for it. It would be a warmly welcomed announcement.

www.jbcases.com
 
pro9dg said:
Lawyers and Ranking System creators. It would be wiser to find a PR guru for free
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Best post in the thread. I don't know how many times I have posted the same words, but the ABP does not ever listen.

Did you know that "silent" and "listen" are spelled with the same letters? :wink:

Listen or thy tongue will keep thee deaf. ~ Native American Proverb
 
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