I agree with u 100%,WHEN U SEE hOPKINS stroke the stick,it looks like he cant play a lick,for sure one of the best ever,as a money player,Hopkins is 2nd to none,has any player ever beaten Hopkins for money,if so i never seen it or heard about it,the best 1pocket player for a very long time on the whole east coast,no one would play him,but Grady!
Allen Hopkins' short/push stroke.
- Thread starter LAMas
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I agree with u 100%,WHEN U SEE hOPKINS stroke the stick,it looks like he cant play a lick,for sure one of the best ever,as a money player,Hopkins is 2nd to none,has any player ever beaten Hopkins for money,if so i never seen it or heard about it,the best 1pocket player for a very long time on the whole east coast,no one would play him,but Grady!
short vs long
When it's all boiled down, the only thing that matters is what's happening a few inches before the CB on through the follow through. That's where champions are made or not. And of course what's going on upstrairs....
When it's all boiled down, the only thing that matters is what's happening a few inches before the CB on through the follow through. That's where champions are made or not. And of course what's going on upstrairs....
One thing to add:
Some people are equating a long bridge length with a long stroke. Bridge length and stroke length are not necessarily connected. You can have a longer bridge and still use a shorter stroke. As a matter of fact, many great players use this technique. Alex does this a lot. Of course, it's not possible to have a short bridge and a long stroke.
I like going with the longer bridge all the time and shortening up my backswing to increase accuracy when necessary.
Interesting topic though. I like it whenever anybody questions the conventional wisdom.
Some people are equating a long bridge length with a long stroke. Bridge length and stroke length are not necessarily connected. You can have a longer bridge and still use a shorter stroke. As a matter of fact, many great players use this technique. Alex does this a lot. Of course, it's not possible to have a short bridge and a long stroke.
I like going with the longer bridge all the time and shortening up my backswing to increase accuracy when necessary.
Interesting topic though. I like it whenever anybody questions the conventional wisdom.
Bingo, we have a winner folks, just ask Allen sometime about how he developed his short stroke:grin:
Why have a long bridge if it isn't necessary?
I think it is much easier to align with the longer bridge and it's easier to see that my cue is stroking straight. With the shorter bridge I tend to be a bit closer to the cue ball and I think this makes it harder to gauge my alignment. To test this - when you are lining up a shot put your head right up near the cue ball and see how confident you are with your alignment. Next, back up a few feet and I think you will get a better feel for the proper line for the shot.
This may just come down to a personal preference of mine, but I do play with a longer bridge than I used to and I'm not going back.
I watched the video and I see him swerving and coming accross the shot all over the place, unless they measured it with a piece of silly string I highly doubt this.
How ever he devleoped it and for whatever reason, back in his day, it was certainly hard to argue with. The man could really play and any game on any table.
I foundit odd that when arguing about the greatest bar table players of all time, Allen is rarely mentioned. What I found odd is that I have never heard of anyone beating him on the bar box. I'm not saying it never happend, just never heard of it.
is stroke though very ugly, was very very effective.
i will never forget how eh dismantled surfer Rod playing last pocket 8 ball at he Serene Room in Vegas around 1980. At $1000 per game, Allen won 21 games in about 2-3 hours and it was the best I ever saw Rod play. It is a comical sstory really, but a different subject.
I saw a kid beat Hopkins at 9-ball a couple sets at West End Billiards in Elizabeth, NJ, back in the early 90's with both of them shooting every shot behind the back.
There are 2 players in my Masters league here in Frederick who have very very short backswings: Kenny Ray and a guy nicknamed 'Punky', and man can they shoot.
Punky is a hustler and plays for big money - the larger the bet the better he plays. I have heard from reliable sources that Earl came through town (maybe Hagerstown I am not sure) at a young age and Punky beat the crap out of him. Earl's mofia called and said he was coming back into town and that if Punky won he was going down. Well, unbeknownst to Earl's mafia, Punky had a mafia too and they said bring it on. Earl came back two weeks later and again got the shit kicked out of him.
To watch them play you would never guess they can play that well.
Punky is a hustler and plays for big money - the larger the bet the better he plays. I have heard from reliable sources that Earl came through town (maybe Hagerstown I am not sure) at a young age and Punky beat the crap out of him. Earl's mofia called and said he was coming back into town and that if Punky won he was going down. Well, unbeknownst to Earl's mafia, Punky had a mafia too and they said bring it on. Earl came back two weeks later and again got the shit kicked out of him.
To watch them play you would never guess they can play that well.
I've watched Allen for years, there is no longer stroke--- just faster acceleration from his normal position.
One day, I was curious about how much back stroke is really needed for cue ball control.
Here is what I did:
Set up for a standard type shot.
Put the cue tip as close as possible to the CB.
Stroke forward without any back stroke.
Set up the same shot again.
Put cue tip as close as possible to the CB.
Stroke back couple of inches.
Stop.
Stroke forward through CB.
I repeated this with various amounts of back stroke. It was interesting to me that you really do not need alot of back stroke as compared to forward stroke to control the CB for a very large percentage of shots.
I now have a phrase about this- Short back, long forward. Meaning a short back stroke,long forward stroke. The forward part of the stroke starting from where I stop on the back stroke.
I also find that it is easier to control my stroke speed with a short back stroke since there is a shorter distance to the CB than with a longer back stroke.
Here is what I did:
Set up for a standard type shot.
Put the cue tip as close as possible to the CB.
Stroke forward without any back stroke.
Set up the same shot again.
Put cue tip as close as possible to the CB.
Stroke back couple of inches.
Stop.
Stroke forward through CB.
I repeated this with various amounts of back stroke. It was interesting to me that you really do not need alot of back stroke as compared to forward stroke to control the CB for a very large percentage of shots.
I now have a phrase about this- Short back, long forward. Meaning a short back stroke,long forward stroke. The forward part of the stroke starting from where I stop on the back stroke.
I also find that it is easier to control my stroke speed with a short back stroke since there is a shorter distance to the CB than with a longer back stroke.
In about 1995 there was a product called the "Laser Shark" which was a laser with a fan-shaped beam that mounted on top of your stick. It showed up any little rotation or swerve. They were at a BCA trade show (back when many pros went to the trade show) and tested a bunch of pro strokes. Hopkins won.
Without measuring I don't think I use over an 8 inch bridge very often. I've never understood the reasoning for using a long bridge like today's 9 ball players use. I've heard the theory about alignment before but I don't see it, personally. I've always understood that with a longer bridge your stroke has more of a chance of getting out of line and I see that when I sometimes make a longer bridge myself.
This is interesting to me. I think there is such a thing as "bridge length creep". It used to just happen to me after a while of not paying attention. My bridge length would just keep getting longer and longer until eventually I would have to force myself to go back to a shorter length.
What's really interesting about this is if you watched some clips of Earl playing back in the late 80's you would see him using the traditional short bridge length. You watch him now and he has the longest bridge of anybody I've ever seen.
I don't know the answer to this one. It makes sense that having a longer bridge length would introduce more potential for error but I also feel like the straighter my stroke gets the more desire I have for a longer bridge. Snooker players require great precision and almost all of them use really long bridges. I'm sure part of that is out of necessity, with playing on the 12 footers and all.
I do go back to how Alex plays. He has a very long bridge, but often times using a very short stroke. I tend to believe it is the length of the stroke that creates the potential for error and not so much the length of the bridge. Also, Darren Appleton uses a pretty long bridge but one of the most important things about his stroke that I've noticed is he uses the shortest stroke necessary to get the job done.
I will say that I find the snooker players that can pull their cues ALL THE WAY BACK, with their long bridges, then pause, then fire the ball in to be the most impressive to watch. That is very, very, difficult to do.
I think people don't pay as much attention to their bridge length, as they think they do. Most of us will use the same bridge length, regardless of stroke speed (in SOP situations where there are no obstructions). Bridge length is an individual thing and each one of us has a certain length that is most comfortable for us, in normal shotmaking. That's why there is no "one-size-fits-all" bridge length. Same thing for finishing your stroke. How much do we HAVE to followthrough (basically zero...1/16th")? How far SHOULD we followthrough is the question to be answered, and that is individual to each person, based on their style of play, body style, and fundamentals. My finish distance for most SOP shots is measured at 6 1/2". Randyg's is only 5 1/2", even though he is much taller than me. Both of us play with and teach a pendulum swing. Some will have a very short finish (2-3") and others may be as long as 8-9". Nobody will have a 12-15" finish (or longer), unless they play with a piston stroke...or are 8 feet tall!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Check out Alex Pagulayan's stroke...Really short....Mike Sigel said that no one needs more than an 8" to 9" bridge distance from cue ball....He said maybe even shorter for 8 ball...But Alex stroke is really short...
His stroke is short but his bridge length is long. That was the point I was trying to make. Short stroke does not equal short bridge length.