Not nearly the same thing when you are talking about a one man business like making cues. This is a poor analogy.
can't get a refund [long rant warning!]
- Thread starter saddlebow
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Not nearly the same thing when you are talking about a one man business like making cues. This is a poor analogy.
10 business days is a fairly standard practice in most industries. Sometimes that is the nature of the beast. I always give the 2 weeks before I go bat shit and fire bomb a church...
Jay,
I agree with you to an extent. Maybe his version of receiving the money was putting it into his bank account, you have to wait for the money to clear. Money orders and checks can be cancelled. As a business man I know you know about protecting yourself. I do agree after the funds paid are cleared, in a one man show especially, that money should be on it's way back as fast as it got there. I'd never pay it back though before it cleared because I don't like giving out $1200 loans that would never get paid back...just sayin.
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Wait a minute fellas
Before we go draggin Doug's name through the dirt, we should hear both sides. I think Doug is a good guy, not a thief like some are accusing. Originally, the reason Doug didn't ship out the cue is because of a hole in the wood just under the joint. Epoxy started spewing out and it was one of those freak of nature kind of things. Doug didn't want to send out a work like that, so now we got this situation here.
One thing I do know is that cue makers make cues not for the money, but because they love to do it. To many cue makers, money is not something that is just lying around. I don't believe Doug is trying to rip this dude off. One thing people have got to do is be more understanding when it comes to cue makers.
Simply put, THERE IS A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT MORE TO IT THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON THINKS! If you don't know how the cue making process works, then you will have a hard time understanding the logic behind Doug's business practices, or any other cue maker's practices. Don't be so quick to bash on someone just cause you don't get your way right now. I believe that Doug will deliver on whatever he owes. It may not be right this minute, which is not totally right either, but if the dude says he's gonna get you back, at least give him that chance!
What people need to understand is that this isn't Wal-Mart. It is person-to-person commerce and that is a whole different ball game. If someone refuses to give you a refund, buddy, you can kiss your money goodbye! It is always a crapshoot no matter who you're dealing with and how good their reputation is.
Before we go draggin Doug's name through the dirt, we should hear both sides. I think Doug is a good guy, not a thief like some are accusing. Originally, the reason Doug didn't ship out the cue is because of a hole in the wood just under the joint. Epoxy started spewing out and it was one of those freak of nature kind of things. Doug didn't want to send out a work like that, so now we got this situation here.
One thing I do know is that cue makers make cues not for the money, but because they love to do it. To many cue makers, money is not something that is just lying around. I don't believe Doug is trying to rip this dude off. One thing people have got to do is be more understanding when it comes to cue makers.
Simply put, THERE IS A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT MORE TO IT THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON THINKS! If you don't know how the cue making process works, then you will have a hard time understanding the logic behind Doug's business practices, or any other cue maker's practices. Don't be so quick to bash on someone just cause you don't get your way right now. I believe that Doug will deliver on whatever he owes. It may not be right this minute, which is not totally right either, but if the dude says he's gonna get you back, at least give him that chance!
What people need to understand is that this isn't Wal-Mart. It is person-to-person commerce and that is a whole different ball game. If someone refuses to give you a refund, buddy, you can kiss your money goodbye! It is always a crapshoot no matter who you're dealing with and how good their reputation is.
This was probabbly a legitiment accident. Doug has sold several cues on here and not had any complaints to my knowledge. I talked to him several times about making me a cue and everything went very smooth, from start time to delievery. I know several cue makers and one of them told me once that the last thing he does is put the pin in. Not saying that saddlebow doesnt have the right to get his money back in a timely mannor but I have no doubt that Doug will make this right. I myself ordered an expensive cue once and when it was supposed to be delievered the cue maker accidently dropped it and had to refinish it. The cue was well over $1000 and when I got it the finish was perfect and I was very impressed.
resolution
MikeyFrost:
I appreciate your words, and I'm the first one to agree that there can be at least two sides to every story. But your suggestion that we resolve it amicably suggests that there's some dispute about what happened. If it were about "it's a blue veneer and it's supposed to be purple" you'd be right. But here, there's no real dispute, at least about the facts. I paid him, he can't deliver, and he can't refund. As someone pointed out to me in a PM, it's almost impossible to think that the issue with the pin appeared just as it was going into the shipping box. But maybe it did. And good for him to not ship a busted cue. But telling me that I have my head where the sun doesn't shine because I actually called him on this seems to me to be something other than the nice guy you know.
BUT, at least I found out what happens when your head is up your A$$; you get "disgustipated!" [Thanks for that one, Blackballed.]
MikeyFrost:
I appreciate your words, and I'm the first one to agree that there can be at least two sides to every story. But your suggestion that we resolve it amicably suggests that there's some dispute about what happened. If it were about "it's a blue veneer and it's supposed to be purple" you'd be right. But here, there's no real dispute, at least about the facts. I paid him, he can't deliver, and he can't refund. As someone pointed out to me in a PM, it's almost impossible to think that the issue with the pin appeared just as it was going into the shipping box. But maybe it did. And good for him to not ship a busted cue. But telling me that I have my head where the sun doesn't shine because I actually called him on this seems to me to be something other than the nice guy you know.
BUT, at least I found out what happens when your head is up your A$$; you get "disgustipated!" [Thanks for that one, Blackballed.]
Any company, that has the money, can cut a check on the spot, from big finance companies to small dealerships....dealers pull that crap to hold onto the dollars, they have a tendency to rob peter to pay paul.....constantly....any week day, any company has someone on staff with a checkbook to make things right....
In the past, I've paid employee shortages on checks with cash out of my pocket....granted, only in extreme circumstances, but they had a need and I had the money at the time....anything else is just red tape...granted, the economy is tough, Doug could be living hand to mouth, many of us are....
Your last paragraph is very telling. So Doug is a good guy but if he decides to be a bad guy (did you read his last e-mail) then it is "caveat emptor", let the buyer beware. I hope that you don't do business this way.
The right and wrong is easy here. The guy offered a completed cue for sale. He received the money. All that should have remained was to send it out.
If Mr. Patrick had further work to do on the cue, he should have completed it before offering it for sale and taking the guy's money, and certainly before spending the guy's money.
This is not chump change we're talking about - the customer has every right to blow his top over this.
Edited to add: After reading patrickcues post in the Ask The Cuemaker forum, I have no doubt that he will make it right for his customer as soon as he can. If both parties had kept their tempers in check it wouldn't have come to another "I got screwed" thread, though as I said it seems that the customer was justified in losing it over such a substantial sum of money.
If Mr. Patrick had further work to do on the cue, he should have completed it before offering it for sale and taking the guy's money, and certainly before spending the guy's money.
This is not chump change we're talking about - the customer has every right to blow his top over this.
Edited to add: After reading patrickcues post in the Ask The Cuemaker forum, I have no doubt that he will make it right for his customer as soon as he can. If both parties had kept their tempers in check it wouldn't have come to another "I got screwed" thread, though as I said it seems that the customer was justified in losing it over such a substantial sum of money.
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I've done business with Doug and he's been an honest individual.
It's really sucks to see that this happens as it's Doug's livehood on the line and this is really what he love to do. I know times are hard for everyone and when it comes to money we've all made mistake. I think in this case, Doug was straight forward about the situation but I do agree that his actions may not be the right response.
Really hope you guys can work this out as clearly Doug's situation does not give him much option.
Regards,
Duc.
It's really sucks to see that this happens as it's Doug's livehood on the line and this is really what he love to do. I know times are hard for everyone and when it comes to money we've all made mistake. I think in this case, Doug was straight forward about the situation but I do agree that his actions may not be the right response.
Really hope you guys can work this out as clearly Doug's situation does not give him much option.
Regards,
Duc.
True this is his livelihood, I know he'll make it right and really come through for you. If he doesn't than I have a feeling he is done on here. I think he's an awesome guy and I have a feeling for every bit angry you are...he is twice as disappointed for it coming to this situation. I'll be satisfied when Saddlebow is satisfied, personal feelings aside, business is business. I have to take the buyer's side.
P.S. I agree, the words that have been involved were a bit out of line.
P.S. I agree, the words that have been involved were a bit out of line.
The cue was offered for sale as a finished cue, ready for delivery. This cue was for sale for several weeks, not a few hours or days. Tell me who glues a pin in right before they ship the cue? LOL, no one. No one offers a completed cue, then blends the shafts before shipping, it just doesn't make sense. Never advertise something as one thing when it is another. He is paying for this mistake, and I believe he will not make it again.
From the facts gathered over the posts, the cue was finished, pin was glued in, shaft was matched. But as Mr. Patrick went to ship it, he tried to put the cue together (a pre-ship inspection), and notice that the pin came loose. So in order to fix it, he applied the epoxy in the hole for the pin, and afterwards noticed the leak onto the forearm, which caused the cue to no longer be acceptable to his standards, which is un-shipable.
Allow me to re-iterate, At the time it was advertised, it was complete, he did not advertise falsely, there happens to just be a manufacturing defect he noticed in one of the preship quality inspections.
However, spending the $ before the cue was shipped was also not the right thing to do on Mr. Patricks fault, always expect Murphy's Law to kick in until the transaction is completed.
Sorry pal, he is quoted as saying "when I was fitting the shafts to the cue...." That should have been done before the cue was offered for sale, no way around this. The money issue is between him and Mr. Crockett, but the issue of offering the cue for sale before the shafts were fitted was not a good idea.
You are wasting time defending him to me, I merely pointed out that, by his own admission, the cue was not ready to ship when offered for sale.
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Ridiculous Treatment
I've bought two of the guys cues . . . all I can say is the whole experience and his cues are nothing short of great!
I've bought two of the guys cues . . . all I can say is the whole experience and his cues are nothing short of great!
Tap, tap, tap. I have sold a couple cues here and I have never spent the buyers money until he receives the cue and is COMPLETELY HAPPY WITH IT. If for any reason the buyer doesn't want the cue I will immediately return his money (once I get the cue back).
The buyer could of received the cue in perfect shape but didn't like it and the seller would of had to return the money. The cue being broken was no excuse for spending the buyers money before the buyer acknowledged he as happy with it.
Wow!!!...
If that's the way you feel, I don't think I'll be doing business with you anytime soon.
If that's the way you feel, I don't think I'll be doing business with you anytime soon.
I think you guys need to give Doug Patrick the benefit of the doubt, read this thread first before you chime in with more fuel to this fire.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=156346
Doug is a good guy and will make it right, things happen and I think it is good that he did not let the customer get a product that he knew was not right and is trying to fix things up. I think this guy will get his money back and I am such a degenerate I will even bet on it! :grin-square:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=156346
Doug is a good guy and will make it right, things happen and I think it is good that he did not let the customer get a product that he knew was not right and is trying to fix things up. I think this guy will get his money back and I am such a degenerate I will even bet on it! :grin-square:
I just got wind of this a short time ago otherwise I would have posted a lot quicker here.
When I was getting this cue ready to be shipped out while re-checking to make sure all was good. I noticed that the joint pin was loose. So I took it out! I cleared the hole out rand a tap down in it. I mixed up up some epoxy put a dime size amount in the hole and a little on threads. When I screwed the joint pin back into the cue. I found where it had hydaulic out of the forearm. No mind that this cue is finished and I discovered the joint pin was loose. I imediatley call Bill. He was taking a stress test because he was having surgery next week. He said he would call me back! He did! I explained to him what had happened. He was not happy. I offered 3 ways to take care of this.
1st. Was to refund his money. 2nd. I would build him another cue of his choice. 3 rd another cue that I have for sale on here. His choice! His choose to get a refund. That is not a problem I told him. I also explained to him that I would need a week or 2 at the most to get the cash back to him. I explained that I had already purchased some more supplies with his money that is why I couldnt refund that day. I agree with some of you I should not have done that. I didnt see having any problems with his cue! My mistake! I sent him pics of this cue to him and I also posted it up in (ask the cuemaker section) looking for some opinions on what I can so with this cue now!
I have never screwed anyone here or anywhere else. I may have been slow about getting cues finished. But I try to keep in touch and let them know what is going on!
Now I am attatching copies of the emails from both of us.
no sweat, let me know next week.
thnx
bc
On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:47 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Bill:
>
> Yes! Sorry I have been out of the shop this weekend and forgot to let you know. I will be shipping your cue out on Tuesday afternoon.
>
> I will send over tracking info when I ship.
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com>
> Subject: follow up
> To: patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 1:30 PM
>
> Doug:
> I assume that you got the check by now. If you have not, please let me know asap so I can put a trace on it with fedex.
> If you did receive it, let me know when you ship and give me the details so I can track it.
> Please ship to :
>
> bc
What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
????
bc
On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
>
> <P1012623.JPG>
Doug:
The first one of them I sent the pictures to agrees that the cue is cracked, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
I'm not very pleased that I'm stuck essentially making a loan to you, but you were straight about the condition of the cue. It won't do me any good at this point to wonder about any of the rest of how this all came about at the last minute, although I can't help but think I'm the only one surprised here.
I trust you'll pay me at your earliest opportunity. You don't give me any other choice.
Bill Crockett
On Sep 16, 2009, at 7:09 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Bill:
>
> Did you get the pic I sent over to you? Now do you believe what I am telling you is the truth? I hope so!! I could have very easily passed this off as mineral in the forearm. But I didnt because that is bad business. Like I said I am not trying to rip you off or anything like. I offered you a couple ways to solve this. You choose to get a refund. That is not a problem at all. It will take me a couple weeks to get it send it back to you.. Like I said before I am a small business. I purchased more wood when I cashed your check. So I dont have the money to send to you right now. I will soon!! I am very sorry for the inconvienence to you.
>
> I amnot sure who the cue makers was that you spoke to. They are more than welcome to call me. I am POSSITIVE that they have done this before at some time or another throughout there carreer!!
>
> Thank you !
>
> DOUG PATRICK
> 618-709-2615
I think before you get all self righteous you should refund my money. You may think it's ok to take someone's money and not deliver the goods, but I don't, and not paying me back and not delivering the goods is a BS way to do business, and IS fraud. If you think I'm wrong, we can let the local authorities decide. I'm still glad to put all of this out an AZB if you think you're right and I'm wrong. Otherwise,if I were you I'd STFU.
Bill:
Feel free to do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this! Like I said before I have been honest with you about what had happened here. You want to talk about being self righteous, if you would get you head out of you ass long enough to see that this was an accident! It wasnt done on purpose! Like I said, you do what you need to do! Oh yea Bill I will never STFU!
--- On Fri, 9/18/09, bill crockett <bill@crockett.net> wrote:
On Sep 17, 2009, at 10:45 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Just for the record this cue was posted up for sale on Aug 27th! Not over a month ago!
> Just thought you should know the facts on when this cue was put up for sale!
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Wed, 9/16/09, Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net>
> Subject: Re: pic
> To: "ROBERT PATRICK" <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 7:26 PM
>
> What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
> ????
> bc
> On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
>
>>
>> <P1012623.JPG>
Now everyone here can see that I was very honest with Bill from the start! I made a bad choice by using his money he sent me to pay for materials before he got his cue. My Fault! I have posted on the ask the cuemaker section that the other cue here was sold pending payment. As soon as I get the funds from this person I would me refunding Bill's money back to him.
When I was getting this cue ready to be shipped out while re-checking to make sure all was good. I noticed that the joint pin was loose. So I took it out! I cleared the hole out rand a tap down in it. I mixed up up some epoxy put a dime size amount in the hole and a little on threads. When I screwed the joint pin back into the cue. I found where it had hydaulic out of the forearm. No mind that this cue is finished and I discovered the joint pin was loose. I imediatley call Bill. He was taking a stress test because he was having surgery next week. He said he would call me back! He did! I explained to him what had happened. He was not happy. I offered 3 ways to take care of this.
1st. Was to refund his money. 2nd. I would build him another cue of his choice. 3 rd another cue that I have for sale on here. His choice! His choose to get a refund. That is not a problem I told him. I also explained to him that I would need a week or 2 at the most to get the cash back to him. I explained that I had already purchased some more supplies with his money that is why I couldnt refund that day. I agree with some of you I should not have done that. I didnt see having any problems with his cue! My mistake! I sent him pics of this cue to him and I also posted it up in (ask the cuemaker section) looking for some opinions on what I can so with this cue now!
I have never screwed anyone here or anywhere else. I may have been slow about getting cues finished. But I try to keep in touch and let them know what is going on!
Now I am attatching copies of the emails from both of us.
no sweat, let me know next week.
thnx
bc
On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:47 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Bill:
>
> Yes! Sorry I have been out of the shop this weekend and forgot to let you know. I will be shipping your cue out on Tuesday afternoon.
>
> I will send over tracking info when I ship.
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <wec@mac.com>
> Subject: follow up
> To: patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 1:30 PM
>
> Doug:
> I assume that you got the check by now. If you have not, please let me know asap so I can put a trace on it with fedex.
> If you did receive it, let me know when you ship and give me the details so I can track it.
> Please ship to :
>
> bc
What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
????
bc
On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
>
> <P1012623.JPG>
Doug:
The first one of them I sent the pictures to agrees that the cue is cracked, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
I'm not very pleased that I'm stuck essentially making a loan to you, but you were straight about the condition of the cue. It won't do me any good at this point to wonder about any of the rest of how this all came about at the last minute, although I can't help but think I'm the only one surprised here.
I trust you'll pay me at your earliest opportunity. You don't give me any other choice.
Bill Crockett
On Sep 16, 2009, at 7:09 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Bill:
>
> Did you get the pic I sent over to you? Now do you believe what I am telling you is the truth? I hope so!! I could have very easily passed this off as mineral in the forearm. But I didnt because that is bad business. Like I said I am not trying to rip you off or anything like. I offered you a couple ways to solve this. You choose to get a refund. That is not a problem at all. It will take me a couple weeks to get it send it back to you.. Like I said before I am a small business. I purchased more wood when I cashed your check. So I dont have the money to send to you right now. I will soon!! I am very sorry for the inconvienence to you.
>
> I amnot sure who the cue makers was that you spoke to. They are more than welcome to call me. I am POSSITIVE that they have done this before at some time or another throughout there carreer!!
>
> Thank you !
>
> DOUG PATRICK
> 618-709-2615
I think before you get all self righteous you should refund my money. You may think it's ok to take someone's money and not deliver the goods, but I don't, and not paying me back and not delivering the goods is a BS way to do business, and IS fraud. If you think I'm wrong, we can let the local authorities decide. I'm still glad to put all of this out an AZB if you think you're right and I'm wrong. Otherwise,if I were you I'd STFU.
Bill:
Feel free to do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this! Like I said before I have been honest with you about what had happened here. You want to talk about being self righteous, if you would get you head out of you ass long enough to see that this was an accident! It wasnt done on purpose! Like I said, you do what you need to do! Oh yea Bill I will never STFU!
--- On Fri, 9/18/09, bill crockett <bill@crockett.net> wrote:
On Sep 17, 2009, at 10:45 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
> Just for the record this cue was posted up for sale on Aug 27th! Not over a month ago!
> Just thought you should know the facts on when this cue was put up for sale!
>
> Thanks
> DOUG
>
> --- On Wed, 9/16/09, Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Crockett <bill@crockett.net>
> Subject: Re: pic
> To: "ROBERT PATRICK" <patrickcustomcues@yahoo.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 7:26 PM
>
> What is this supposed to show me? And I still don't understand why you discovered this AFTER advertising the cue for sale for over a month.
> ????
> bc
> On Sep 16, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ROBERT PATRICK wrote:
>
>>
>> <P1012623.JPG>
Now everyone here can see that I was very honest with Bill from the start! I made a bad choice by using his money he sent me to pay for materials before he got his cue. My Fault! I have posted on the ask the cuemaker section that the other cue here was sold pending payment. As soon as I get the funds from this person I would me refunding Bill's money back to him.
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