Why Won't a big % of promotors not escrow?

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I don't get this and never have. There are a lot of promotors out there that are honest, want to help the game, and yes, make a few bucks. I don't get the reason anyone puts ANY faith in a tournament that says there will be X amount added and not have it in escrow for all to check. Please enlighten me to why. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt

I think it is like the Hustler who has the bad nightmare, dreaming he is playing on his own money.
 
Most won't get any "up front money" until the players have entered the tournament.

Some promoters rely on GATE receipts for the added money. Attendance is a key factor.

Casinos typically won't escrow their added money because, well they are a casino.
 
Probably because they don't have to. Players, as a whole, have proven that they will come and play and accept whatever they are given in return.

If the players walked out, and there was no tournament, promoters will start putting money in escrow, or at least being more honest in their promises.
 
How do you go about getting a commercial escrow account for something other than real estate? I asked at my bank, and they said they provide nothing like that, but I think what they meant to say is that they don't provide it at that location. They suggested I talk to a title company (real estate).

Usually an escrow involves three parties. For a pool tournament, the third party is the whoever finishes in the money. That is not known at the time the escrow account is established. An escrow FAQ I found on-line says among other things:

All parties to the escrow agreement and any other beneficial owners are required to provide a valid Form W-8 or Form W-9 (Form W-8s are for non-US residents, Form W-9s are for US residents). These forms must be received prior to establishing the escrow account.​

The obvious escrow contract would be between the promoter and the sanctioning organization, but the latter is largely missing for pool.

Anyone know how much an escrow account costs?
 
They don't have the money!

As stated earlier, they have to rely on the gate, or casino, or some other expected income from the tourney!

Even back in the days of the UPA, the players voted to not require escrow. If they did require escrow, then most of the tournaments would have never happened.

Of course, there are exceptions, Mark Griffin, of course, and a few others. Mark has even offered to act as a escrow agent for other promoters from time to time.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
The market has demanded the "escrow policy" as a standard service, not yet. I am making an attempt to write a story about standard service. Years ago big business considered standard service as delivering the merchandise or service discussed. Today big business considers standard services to include green operating procedures and charitable donations. For niche markets like the cue industry standard service seems to consists of delivery of merchandise and rarity of merchandise. For tournament markets standard service appears to be attraction of quality players and substantial prizes. Why hasn't standard service included insurance on payment terms? The operators in the market: have lower costs by not doing it, don't know how to do it, and customers don't value that service enough.

The article seems focused on defining standard service as set by the popularity of demands by customers. At least in the big business paradigm, management wants repeat customers. The customers are attracted by latest trends in charity, green policies and other innovative concepts. With smaller markets management seems concerned with micromanaging to optimize performance.

Summary: Businesses provide the most dominant demand of their best customers.
 
Last edited:
Anyone know how much an escrow account costs?
Click to expand...

Real estate escrow fees run a few hundred dollars per disbursement event (a construction escrow might have many disbursement events; a pool tournament would presumably have only one). But there are other expenses, mainly legal work to draw up an escrow agreement/instructions that the principal parties sign and the escrowee follows.

pj
chgo
 
We often use the term "escrow" loosely. A formal escrow account with the holding disbursed by legal regulations would piss pool players off. Imagine you win first place and you get certified funds from the main account holder, yes that money will get reported and taxed appropriately. Pool Players don't like that.

Now for our purposes "escrow" is more like having the money "posted." If you have the money visable and can be verified then people will like that just as much. If you can get the money in soon enough, get some decent interest on it, then you could see more tournaments.

I am by no means good with the financials, but what I do not is if someone is crooked, you will get screwed anyway, and if someone is honest their best effort shouldnt be misrepresented in the first place. Things happen. End of the day, I doubt there will ever be a solution and no standard practice will be adopted. Moral of the story, go with who you trust!
 
What really needs to be done is that the tournaments should be "bonded". Which basically gives the players a legal recourse against the bonding company should the tournament back out of payment. In some cases the bonding company may require almost full payment of the amount they are covering or less depending on the "credit worthiness" of the person... How well this would work in the pool world, who knows... I think it's much better then the idea of an escrow...

Brian
 
btoneill said:
What really needs to be done is that the tournaments should be "bonded". Which basically gives the players a legal recourse against the bonding company should the tournament back out of payment. In some cases the bonding company may require almost full payment of the amount they are covering or less depending on the "credit worthiness" of the person... How well this would work in the pool world, who knows... I think it's much better then the idea of an escrow...

Brian
Click to expand...

An escrow is cash. A bond is a promise to pay if the promoter doesn't. You can bet a bonding company doesn't want to pay and will make it difficult to collect.

pj
chgo
 
bobroberts said:
I dont think a bank will escrow because it is gambling and it is not legal in most states.
Click to expand...

if it's a legitamate tournament it's not gambling and that's allowed in all states. ie. golf tournaments, bowling tournaments, video game tournaments, baking, cooking and bbq contests that offer cash prizes. you're not going to get any sort of "escrow" or bonding on an action match because that is gambling. but there must be a way to certify having the funds in an account for the players to see and to be used only for the purpose of paying off. i think a large part of the problem is the lack of a major organization of professional pool players. one that is run in a manner close to the pga. don mackie was mentioned a few days ago on this forum and that man should be horse whipped. he screwed the sport with it's pants on. if there were one organization, with one leader to be the face of the sport, a board to vote on issues, and pros to play, you'd have a shot at a lot of things. namely a bonding company willing to help with payout gaurantees. you'd also have better chances at bigger sponsorship, better paydays and so forth. you also could then take all of the regional tournaments and use them as the minor leagues. that is where you're talent development would be. newer players could hone skills to eventually be moved up to the pro's. unfortunately we have a multitude of less than reputable douchebags who only care about what's in it for them and what they can steal. ah pool, tell me again why i am additcted to this game?:(
 
RBC said:
They don't have the money!

As stated earlier, they have to rely on the gate, or casino, or some other expected income from the tourney!

Even back in the days of the UPA, the players voted to not require escrow. If they did require escrow, then most of the tournaments would have never happened.

Of course, there are exceptions, Mark Griffin, of course, and a few others. Mark has even offered to act as a escrow agent for other promoters from time to time.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

Winner-winner chicken dinner! :grin-square:
 
All that would be required is to find someone in the pool industry who is trusted and write them a check to hold until the tournament starts. Of course there would have to be provisions in case someone died, the venue could no longer hold the event, etc... to refund the money. You would also have to make a provision in case the promoter decided to no longer have the event, what would you do with the money?

I have heard that Mark Griffin has offered to hold the money for tournaments and I believe he would be a great person to handle it. Once he had the money he could have a press release and everyone would be comfortable that the money was put up. I know that I waited until Greg from Diamond posted that he had the deposit on the tables before I decided to book any tickets to Galveston. I wasn't playing in the events so it didn't matter much to me if the money promised wasn't added to the tournaments.

I do believe that the main reason the added money isn't posted is because a lot of the promoters are waiting for the the money to start coming in from an event before paying out. They already have a lot of expenses to get the event started, and this is a large bill that they will try and avoid as long as they can.
 
Bob Jewett said:
How do you go about getting a commercial escrow account for something other than real estate? I asked at my bank, and they said they provide nothing like that, but I think what they meant to say is that they don't provide it at that location. They suggested I talk to a title company (real estate).

Usually an escrow involves three parties. For a pool tournament, the third party is the whoever finishes in the money. That is not known at the time the escrow account is established. An escrow FAQ I found on-line says among other things:

All parties to the escrow agreement and any other beneficial owners are required to provide a valid Form W-8 or Form W-9 (Form W-8s are for non-US residents, Form W-9s are for US residents). These forms must be received prior to establishing the escrow account.​

The obvious escrow contract would be between the promoter and the sanctioning organization, but the latter is largely missing for pool.

Anyone know how much an escrow account costs?
Click to expand...

The easiest way to escrow money for any reason is through an attorney. Any attorney that does any significant volume of business will have an escrow account. The attorney will simply draw up a contract that will give the provisions on how the money will come out of escrow. The problem with that is a lot is left up to the interpretation of that attorney if a dispute arises.
 
billychips said:
The easiest way to escrow money for any reason is through an attorney. Any attorney that does any significant volume of business will have an escrow account. The attorney will simply draw up a contract that will give the provisions on how the money will come out of escrow. The problem with that is a lot is left up to the interpretation of that attorney if a dispute arises.
Click to expand...

A smart attorney will not let you use his escrow account for free or for anyone without a legitimate, certified, verifiable business. Attorneys and banks could be accused of money laundering.

Escrow accounts are not a solution for ensuring availability of monies for a tournament. Even an attorney could run off with the money. Escrowing is just another "bull $hit" idea and dumb excuse for finding a solution to the many problems we have in pool/billiards.
 
juegabillar said:
A smart attorney will not let you use his escrow account for free or for anyone without a legitimate, certified, verifiable business. Attorneys and banks could be accused of money laundering.

Escrow accounts are not a solution for ensuring availability of monies for a tournament. Even an attorney could run off with the money. Escrowing is just another "bull $hit" idea and dumb excuse for finding a solution to the many problems we have in pool/billiards.
Click to expand...

I never said it was a legitimate answer to running a tournament. I was just explaining what that option would be like. As for the costs, it is pretty cheap. I use attorneys escrow accounts all the time and the costs are very minimal. I am sure that some "smart" attorneys would even do it for free or next to nothing. They have absolutely zero risk because they get an indemnification letter signed prior to release of funds.
 
escrow

Mars man is correct. Here is a link (Post #2) http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=48011.

It never really got anywhere. But maybe something will happen down the road. I will state that the very first event I did after acquiring the BCAPL was to bring back the BCAPL 9-ball event. It was held at the Plaza in Las Vegas.

It was an add of $20,000. We posted the money with the casino and took pictures of us giving the check to the Plaza managment.

I am not sure anyone even noticed. I will offer to hold $$ for anyone (seriously) and let the world know the money is posted. Galveston has brought back a lot of old topics.

Mark Griffin
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Casinos typically won't escrow their added money because, well they are a casino.
Click to expand...


Has there even been a incident where a Casino promised add money to pool, and did not do as promised or advertised?

A Casino I think has too much at steak like problem with their licensing authority if they were to renege on a promise, or advertisement.

JMHO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top